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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 22, 2011 08:34 AM |
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Quote:
Christians have a different nature than non-Christians. It is simply not in our nature to hate or murder. I know many atheists simply can't fathom than.
And where does this "nature" come from? By birth? By parents? Through "enlightening"? At what point does a human being start to be a "true christian"?
Would be interesting if you could explain these things..
I have one more question though...
Forgive me if I don't express myself in perfect english, but as far as I remember, there is a passage in the bible which says something similar like: God not only loves his followers, but also those, who failed (sinners), but found the right way and repent.
But those mentioned people can't be true christians, right? The may have killed, hated, stolen...whatsoever. But still, God lends them a hand, if....
But you on the other hand tell me, that people, who live like true christians (see example of Corribus), make ONE false move and then everything is gone.
To tell you the truth:
I can understand why some people follow the idea of GOD (the one mentioned in the newer bible), but I can hardly believe ANYONE would follow YOUR idea.
You're not forgiving, you're not spreading love and understanding. There is nothing I have learned in the past from your writings which makes me think about my agnostic idea and maybe turn into a believer. Nothing!
And yes, I have the possibility of comparison. As I mentioned earlier already, my wife is "member" of Jehova's witnesses. She goes to the convention every sunday morning and most of the friday evenings. She is full of love.
We often have brothers and sisters of that convention in our house for a visit, because I have respect of the believe of my wife. And of course we talk about the bible and God, because they know I am not a believer. But you know what? No one of them would ever talk like you do! They are warmhearted, they understand why my views of things are different. They (try to) explain things to me, which are not "logical" for me, etc...
But always in a manner I am looking forward for their next visit.
An "agnostic" likes to talk to a believer...strange situation huh?
My wife already knows (now), a good person doesn't have to be a believer, and a believer isn't automatically a good person.
And christianity isn't on top of everything.....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted March 22, 2011 08:35 AM |
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A lot of people hate these religion threads but, in all fairness, they're the sewers of HC; yes, they stink, but at least they keep feces from getting spilled all over the place.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 22, 2011 09:31 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 09:45, 22 Mar 2011.
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Quote:
@Zenofex
I fail to see how any of that has anything to do with what I wrote.
The point is that if does not matter if it seems inconsistent to you or anybody who tries to think about it logically as this is not a system that attempts to be internally consistent in the first place. The "logical explanations" of the Western religions, particularly the Christianity, come from people who try to reconcile the rational and the irrational for both propaganda (not everyone is willing to believe without some arguments first) and philosophical purposes and of course utterly fail to create something more than contradictions. At the core however you have the true belief and it does not need internal consistency so any time when a believer has lost a logic-based dispute about his religion, he/she can claim that his/her opponents don't know the truth in which he/she believes and thus are making false claims.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 22, 2011 10:34 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 15:12, 22 Mar 2011.
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Quote:
But as far as I am concerned, this is the Gospel and I only have a few small remarks to add to it. A condensed version of what he said:
“. . . Jesus died because he loved everyone so much, and because he knew that none of us are perfect. . . . A Christian is defined as someone who believes in Christ's message and believes that Christ died for the sins we would inevitably commit. . . . if I repent and honestly ask for forgiveness . . . I can still go to heaven no matter how badly I fall in life. That was why Christ sacrificed himself, to buy me God's forgiveness. . . .”
You seem to be quoting some paraphrase version of a passage. I can't even recognize what passage you are refering to. Provide the book, chapter, and verses numbers please.
It is true God loves everyone, manifested himself as Jesus Christ, and died for our sins. It is not true that we can live in sin and still go to heaven according to the Bible. It is true that a Christian can sin and can be forgiven for his sin. It is not true that a Christian can hate or murder. Those are sins a Christian is unable to commit according to the Bible.
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1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
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And just as I cannot earn my way into Heaven by my works, Heaven cannot be taken away from me by my works. When I profess my faith in Christ as my savior, when I accept him as the one perfect sacrifice for my sins, ALL my sins: past, present, AND FUTURE, are forgiven.
The Bible does not teach "once saved always saved" or that all of your sins for all time are forgiven the moment you decide to begin to follow Christ.
Jesus said saying "Lord, Lord" does not make you his follower. Believers are also told to confess their sins and they will be forgiven. No confession of sin = no forgiveness of sin. You have to "walk the walk", not just "talk the talk."
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1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The Bible says anyone claiming to be a Christian but who hates is a liar. What are you going to do with that based on your position that Christians can hate?
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To take a holier-than-thou stance by saying “Christians have a different nature than non-Christians. It is simply not in our nature to hate or murder,” is a form of hatred directed at non-Christians and is likely the symptom of some deep-rooted sin. We are all sinners, and no sinner is better or worse than any other.
I think you need to rethink your statements. Surely you have read the words of Jesus about the being born again and Paul's teachings about the old and new man (old and new natures.)
To be a Christian you have to be born again. At the New Birth you receive a new nature. Saying that is not hate. Every Christian was once not a Christian. Every person has access to the New Birth by repenting of their sin and placing himself in submission to the gospel of Christ.
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Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
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Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 22, 2011 11:05 AM |
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@mvassilev
Quote:
If you need any more proof that Christianity is evil, look no further than the above two posts.Quote:
I know some atheists on this board have said people should not love everyone and that all people are NOT created equal. Christians and atheists have different natures and different world views.
"Love everyone"? This is implying that everyone should be loved. Why? First of all, why should you love people you don't know? Second, why should you love thieves, murderers, and other despicable people? And it cheapens love to think of your feelings towards your parent, child, or significant other if you think of your feelings towards them as similar to those towards, say, Osama bin Laden. If you don't have any reason to love a given person, you shouldn't.
I'm sad that you don't seem to think we should love everyone and that the idea that we should is evil. 
I've already addressed the question of the innate dignity of man. The innate dignity of man is based on the idea that mankind was created in the image of God. (That image has become marred through sin.) That alone is enough to make everyone worthy of love.
Yes, we should love murderers and rapists. That does not mean that the state should not punish them for their crimes.
Jesus taught that everything God expects of man can be summed up as "love God and love your fellow man."
No, saying that everyone should be loved does not cheapen the concept of love. Saying that you should love only those who benefit you in some way cheapens the concept of love. It is a selfish kind of "love."
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It is simply not in our nature to hate or murder.
How about hating murder then? And correction: it isn't in your nature, it's in your little 10 commandments that you're assured of going to hell if not following them, you do it purely out of fear.
The Ten Commandments are not for believers but for unbelievers.
Yes, Christians should hate sin. No, I reverence God but do not fear him. He is my father. 
Quote:
And hate IS natural and RIGHT, murder not of course. Regarding the common Christian psychology: it is far more frustrating to see someone restrain themselves from hate out of fear for their own wellbeing, than to see someone hate what should be hated and does evil.
I don't have to restrain myself from not hating. Hate is simply foreign to my nature.
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Quote:
In the same way a Christian can't hate or murder because it is against his nature.
Pathetic hypocrisy again. You don't consistently rape farm animals and murder them in gruesome manners?
No, I've never had sex with farm animals, nor have I had the desire to do so. You have? Oh, I am also a vegetarian, so I've never killed a farm animal. Not that killing an animal is murder.
No, I am not a hypocrite.
Quote:
And as for hating, many Christians regard the representatives of other religions as trash, others such as Muslims likewise, they're even worse. Can the fact not penetrate your fanatic skull Elodin, that (e.g.) the World Trade Centre attack was a result of RELIGIOUS hatred? There's a little counterargument to your Stalin overdose.
No, I'm not a fanatic. It is sad that you continue to launch personal insults.
I don't defend Islam. Seek out a Muslim to defend Islam.
Certainly Christianity the truth but it is untrue that I view followers of other religions as trash. Like I said, I believe in innate human dignity and that every person should be loved.
I never said atheism is the only religion that has ever been responsible for violence.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted March 22, 2011 11:11 AM |
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Quote:
I've never had sex with farm animals
But I thought you were a Republican.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 22, 2011 12:28 PM |
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Elodin:
Whether made in God's image (and then marred) or not is irrelevant. Evil people do bad things. If God is perfectly good, and these people purposely perform harmful actions, then they are no longer in God's image, just like painting over the Mona Lisa with abstract "art" will make it not be the Mona Lisa any more. Even if God made man in His own image, it doesn't mean man stayed that way.Quote:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.(Genesis 2:7)
As we know, dust is not known for being stable, so neither is man.
Quote:
Saying that you should love only those who benefit you in some way cheapens the concept of love. It is a selfish kind of "love."
Love is selfish - it's the expression of valuing another person's well-being highly because of what that person is like. You can say that's not selfish, but if you value someone/something and live according to your values, then you are certainly being selfish. Not that it's a bad thing.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted March 22, 2011 02:28 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 14:42, 22 Mar 2011.
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@Kryten
Quote:
Whether he believes in it or not, the second paragraph of Corribus’s post a few posts back is a beautifully accurate description of the Christian ethos as I understand it.
Thanks, and welcome to HC. It is nice to add another Christian of apparently steady mind to counterbalance the few rabid zealots that give Christianity a very, very bad black eye.
For the record, though I don't call myself a Christian, I still believe in penance and redemption - core Christian values - as guilding principles of my own moral code. That is, though an atheist I still borrow a lot of what I learned from Christianity in my daily life. I don't think you need to believe in God in order to listen to his alleged message.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 22, 2011 03:25 PM |
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I also don't see how it should be linked
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 22, 2011 04:43 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 16:45, 22 Mar 2011.
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Quote:
Quote:
I've never had sex with farm animals
But I thought you were a Republican.
No, I'm an independent conservative, as I've always said. I'm not sure I want to know what's up with you, SkrentyzMienty, and farm animals.
However, I think we all know that you want to associate human-animal sex with any party it would have to be a liberal party.
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You're not forgiving, you're not spreading love and understanding.
I am a forgiving person. Stop lying about me.
Yes, I am spreading God's love and understanding by quoting what the Bible actually says and refuting the lies anti-theists tell about Christians and the Bible.
God loves everyone and is willing to accept any person who will repent and turn to him.
May I remind you that it is the atheists on this board who have said loving everyone is a bad thing.
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But you on the other hand tell me, that people, who live like true christians (see example of Corribus), make ONE false move and then everything is gone.
No I did not. I said a Christian is not capable of hate or murder and I backed that up by quoting what the Bible says about who is and who is not a Christian.
Quote:
And where does this "nature" come from? By birth? By parents? Through "enlightening"? At what point does a human being start to be a "true christian"?
I addressed this a couple of posts back in response to someone else's post.
@mvassilev
Quote:
Whether made in God's image (and then marred) or not is irrelevant. Evil people do bad things.
Yes, evil people do evil things. But that does not mean that we should not love the person.
Quote:
quote:And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.(Genesis 2:7)
As we know, dust is not known for being stable, so neither is man.
That is saying mankind is a special creation of God. Some people are stable and some are not.
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Love is selfish - it's the expression of valuing another person's well-being highly because of what that person is like.
I disagree. A mature love seeks the good of the other person even if the other person's actions are not pleasing to you.
Quote:
It is nice to add another Christian of apparently steady mind to counterbalance the few rabid zealots that give Christianity a very, very bad black eye.
Yes, I just wish we had more atheists who were not rabid zealots but unfortunately we mostly have anti-theists.
Quote:
I don't think you need to believe in God in order to listen to his alleged message.
Part of Christ's message is that he is God and if you don't obey his gospel you burn in hell so it is hard to say you follow the message of Christ if you don't hold him to be God.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted March 22, 2011 05:20 PM |
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By the way,
Quote:
You seem to be quoting some paraphrase version of a passage. I can't even recognize what passage you are refering to. Provide the book, chapter, and verses numbers please.
He was quoting me, Mr. Reading Comprehension, although heavily edited.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 22, 2011 05:44 PM |
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@Corribus
Quote:
(For what it's worth, I've never heard of any Christian - aside from Elodin - claiming that God judges us based on what we're capable of.
I never said God judges anyone based on what they are capable of. Stop lying about me please.
I said Christians are not capable of hate or murder because that is what the Bible says. You may not like what the Bible say, but tough. The New Testament defines who is a Christian, not you.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted March 22, 2011 05:56 PM |
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Funny in retrospect how I was sad when they closed TAs thread... because his thread will never die.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 22, 2011 05:57 PM |
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Just out of curiosity, which church do you belong to elodin?
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 22, 2011 06:01 PM |
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Quote:
God loves everyone and is willing to accept any person who will repent and turn to him.
so if I don't want to turn to god?
does that mean he wouldn't accept the Dalai-Lama for example?
Quote:
Part of Christ's message is that he is God and if you don't obey his gospel you burn in hell
ah, then it's like stalin, no?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 22, 2011 08:02 PM |
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Elodin:
Quote:
That is saying mankind is a special creation of God. Some people are stable and some are not.
Even if people are a "special creation of God", they can choose to be different and do evil. Why should we love them then?
Quote:
A mature love seeks the good of the other person even if the other person's actions are not pleasing to you.
Some of the person's actions, certainly. But we only know about other people based on what they say and do, so it is based on that. Love is when a person's existence and well-being are pleasing to you.
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Eccentric Opinion
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 22, 2011 08:09 PM |
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 22, 2011 08:52 PM |
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Quote:
ah, then it's like stalin, no?
You forget that even when you burn in hell, you are loved. So it's not like Stalin.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted March 22, 2011 10:07 PM |
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Elodin:
Quote:
I never said atheism is the only religion that has ever been responsible for violence.
Sure, try to row away....
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted March 22, 2011 10:28 PM |
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Quote:
Part of Christ's message is that he is God and if you don't obey his gospel you burn in hell
aww...that's so cute and not mafia-threateningly manipulating in any way  Enjoy your life and never forget to feed the collection box for your priests every Sunday.
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