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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 19, 2011 02:46 PM |
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Quote:
"Religion hampered scientific advance when the church got enough power in the remains Western Rome" is a fact.
RELIGION did it.
That is undeniable.
Might be a fact to you. But try not to be so biased with raging anti-theism for a second.
Religion is a set of rules. Do you see ANY rule in the religion you hate so much that:
- encourages to be dumb (instead of encouraging to use your talents)
- encourages to not question anything and be a blind idiot
- encourages to treat priests/bishops/popes like gods and listen to them at every moment?
I will answer for you. The answer is no. There is absolutely no such encouragement in any of the scripture or teaching of Christianity. If someone told you otherwise, he was wrong. Most of the time, the direct opposite is encouraged.
In other words, what you are so strongly trying to bash here - the set of rules - is guiltless. Saying "religion did this" is not just illogical, it's - no offense - plainly dumb.
Just like saying "religion is the reason for murder" when pretty much EVERY religion on earth condemns murder and forbids it.
It's illogical because you're blaming a set of rules because people are NOT doing what that set of rules encourages, but the direct opposite, which is - no offense again - not exactly smart.
Much like blaming the road codex that FORBIDS going 60km/h for an accident that happened because the driver IGNORED the codex and was speeding 200 km/h.
What kind of a illogical person one has to be to blame the damn CODEX in this situation?
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 19, 2011 02:51 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 14:54, 19 Mar 2011.
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Christians did not have witch hunts or inquisitions. Though those things may have been carried out by liars who claimed to be Christians they were not sanctioned by Jesus Christ.
We know from the Bible that anyone who claims to be a Christian but who does not follow the teachings of Christ is not in fact a Christian. Anyone who claimed to be a Christian who murdered anyone is a liar according to the New Testament writings. In fact, no true Christian so much as hates another person.
Christ also never authorized his church to punish any sinner for any sin beyond disfellowshipping someone who claimed to be a Christian but who insisted on living in sin.
But if we want to talk deaths, let us remember that atheists (Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin, Stalin, ect) in the past 100 years have been responsible for the deaths of more people than all other religions combined for all of recorded history. Unfortunately some atheists continue to point their bony fingers at other religions and accuse them of being evil.
Quote:
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Therefore we can safely conclude that anyone who says Christians murdered anyone for their beliefs is ignorant of Christianity or else a liar. Will there always be people who don't care about truth? Yes.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 19, 2011 02:57 PM |
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Oh and one more thing.
When looking for a scapegoat, I suggest the Church. Much more logical seeing that they are the executors of the laws created by religion. And as such, they failed at doing so @ Middle ages and should be the ones to take the blame. Blaming a set of rules does those snows a favor.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted March 19, 2011 04:21 PM |
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Finally someone that sees the difference .
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted March 19, 2011 04:55 PM |
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Doomforge: Take a look at what Elodin is claiming here. Hence my problem.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted March 19, 2011 05:00 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 17:01, 19 Mar 2011.
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Quote:
atheists continue to point their bony fingers
Why "bony"? 
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 19, 2011 05:00 PM |
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What Elodin is claiming usually is not liked by atheists and theists both, so...
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted March 19, 2011 05:14 PM |
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This talk of religion as a tool is one I see a lot. "Blame not the religion, for it is only a tool; blame instead the man who wields it." Maybe this argument works when discussing firearms, but I fail to see how religion is a tool. After all, a tool is something one uses to accomplish a task in an efficient manner. Hammers can be used to kill people, but we do not condemn hammers because hammers are actually useful for other tasks, and indeed their "good" use far outweighs the "bad". Hammers certainly are tools.
But is religion? What use has religion?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 19, 2011 05:16 PM |
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A good example would be comfort for those suffering. As much "false" as you think it is, I think you can't deny it can give a lot of comfort to those terminally ill.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 19, 2011 05:43 PM |
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Theistic religions have certainly done far more good than the non-theistic religion of atheism.
We see many thousands of Christian organizations dedicated to providing shelter for the homeless, soup kitchens, hospitals, orphanages, etc. NO atheist organizations that I am aware of do the same.
Additionally, studies have shown that theistic religion practitioners are more mentally stable, commit suicide less often, and are more generous towards others, in general.
Atheism is destructive to both individuals and to society in general. Particularly the anti-theist Dawkinite denomination of atheism.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 19, 2011 06:09 PM |
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It is comforting to say that the religion preaches nothing bad and only the humans are flawed and make a mockery of the good ideas. Cool, I agree, there are good ideas in all religions. Actually when they are stripped from their most formal content, they can reveal quite a lot of things about the human nature. And that's pretty valuable. However I find the statement that the religion can not be held responsible for the bad things committed in its name pretty irresponsible and this usually leads to the reproduction of these "bad things". The fact that many ideas, including the religious, ultimately have very different than the intended results should ring a bell.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 19, 2011 09:31 PM |
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Quote:
However I find the statement that the religion can not be held responsible for the bad things committed in its name pretty irresponsible and this usually leads to the reproduction of these "bad things". The fact that many ideas, including the religious, ultimately have very different than the intended results should ring a bell.
It hardly seems logical or fair to hold Christianity responsible for a non-Christian doing something that he claims he did "in the name of Christ" and which directly contradict the teachings of Christianity.
When Christianity says "Thou shalt not murder" and says love, do good to, and pray for even your enemy Christianity can't be blamed by any rational person for someone going out and murdering.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 19, 2011 09:45 PM |
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The problem of religion could also be understood in a different manner.Maybe it was the fault of corrupt officials,monarchs and such.They did not want to lose power so they decided to reign with an iron grip using the rule of the church.I wonder how heretical were those monarchs by those laws-nonlaws that existed in the past?
I think that religion is not the reason of stagnation that occured in the dark ages,I would rather point at greed being the reason of stagnation.Hey,everything could be used as a weapon to remain in power.In this case,the church was a weapon.
let us agree on this,no religion allows the transgression of their respective holy book's laws(islam,christ).
Wherther or not religion helped humanity advance?I do not think it helped on discoveries or scientific develpoment.Why?How does the bible help in the research of "Interferon"?Nothing.Advancement in humanity?
Imo,the darkages occured because of the power vacuum created by fall of the various empires.
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friendofgunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
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posted March 20, 2011 07:39 AM |
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Elodin:
Quote:
Additionally, studies have shown that theistic religion practitioners are more mentally stable, commit suicide less often, and are more generous towards others, in general.
Warren Buffet: Athiest
Quote:
Fortune reports that Buffett will donate 85 percent of his fortune amassed from stock in the Berkshire Hathaway company to five foundations.
Bill Gates: Agnostic "The specific elements of Christianity are not something I'm a huge believer in."
"In terms of doing things I take a fairly scientific approach to why things happen and how they happen. I don't know if there's a god or not, but I think religious principles are quite valid."
Quote:
Forbes will release its 2011 billionaires list on Wednesday and Gates, investor Warren Buffett and last year's richest man, Mexican tycoon Carlos Slim, will almost certainly be in the top three. The trio have topped the list for the past five years.
But it would be no contest if Microsoft co-founder Gates had not already given away more than a third of his wealth to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, which focuses on global health and development and U.S. education.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 20, 2011 12:19 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 12:20, 20 Mar 2011.
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Quote:
The problem of religion could also be understood in a different manner.Maybe it was the fault of corrupt officials,monarchs and such.They did not want to lose power so they decided to reign with an iron grip using the rule of the church.I wonder how heretical were those monarchs by those laws-nonlaws that existed in the past?
Partly true but the Western monarchs were truing to lower the influence of the church most of the time so they could actually rule in their own lands and thus the church can hardly be depicted as a victim of the frenzied ambitions of the secular authorities. The explanation that the church is just another form of power structure which behaves like any other power structure when it comes to keeping and strengthening its position sounds much more plausible.
And yet again I disagree that the religion itself is a poor innocent victim of the twisted human nature and has nothing to do with all atrocities committed by its followers. It can not be blamed for everything but it certainly can not be fully acquitted either.
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baklava
Honorable
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Mostly harmless
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posted March 20, 2011 12:48 PM |
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Quote:
But is religion? What use has religion?
Didn't expect to hear something like this from you, 'Bus. Can't say I'm not a little disappointed.
Think this through, objectively, and being a scientist you should be capable of that, and you'll answer your own question better than any of us here can.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted March 20, 2011 03:12 PM |
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@Bak
I was asking a question, not stating an opinion. This disappoints you how, exactly?
The only answer I have received has been from Doomforge, who pointed to the fact that religion allegedly gives comfort to old people before they die. Well, maybe that's true - but even if I grant that as a "use", is that everything? Is that what religion is useful for - to help people relax a little bit before they're put in the ground to rot for eternity?
I could probably come up with some imagined uses, but as an atheist, my answers would probably be quite different than yours. In fact, I have already deliberated at length about what I think the purpose of religion is in other threads (Love, Sex, Monkeys, etc.). Which I why I ask the question, because theists use this argument about tools a lot. I am no longer convinced the "tool" is necessary for its original purpose. There are, to my mind, better tools aroun that are, shall we say, less easily abused to nefarious ends.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 21, 2011 02:27 AM |
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The religion of atheism has brought absolutely nothing beneficial to society. On the contrary, it has brought only destruction. Contrast that to theism.
The modern concerns for human rights and the protection of the vulnerable have been driven by Christian concerns and the belief that every single individual, male or female, is created in Gods image. This is a far more substantial basis for human rights than any secular theory. Indeed, we see in officially atheist nations that there has been no regard for human rights. We see wide scale mass murder and oppression. Of course the reason for this is that the logical conclusion of materialistic atheism is that human life has no intrinsic value and that opinion has been expressed by several atheists in the OSM.
Thus we see that materialistic atheism offers no foundation for a just and fair society. Indeed, quite the opposite. "Might makes right" for right and wrong is only a matter of personal opinion in a worldview where God does not exist. Indeed this worldview is responsible for Nazism, Stalinism, and eugenics.
Christianity is why the West is more advanced and free than other nations. The rise of science, universities, hospitals, mental institutions, education system, and the Red Cross exists today thanks solely to Christianity. Christianity was the prime force in the abolition of slavery.
Quote:
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
As mentioned previously, the innate dignity of man is a cornerstone of Christianity, as is love for one's fellow man. Jesus taught that all of what expects from us can be summed up as to love God and to love our fellow man. Even to love, do good to, and pray for our enemies. Such an attitude is not logical in an materialistic atheistic world view.
Christianity has many thousands of organizations that feed the poor, provide shelter for the homeless, hospitals, orphanages, ect. Atheist organizations do not. We see that studies indicate that theist religion practitioners are more charitalbe than others. Thus we see theistic religions having a positive impact on society.
Theists also have fewer mental health problems and commit suicide less often. Thus we see that theism is not only good for society, but good for the individual.
So we can see that Christianity has been a force for good in the world whereas the same can't be said of atheism. Quite the opposite in fact.
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Revelation
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 21, 2011 07:28 PM |
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@Elodin
If there was a "Flag as spam button"you would deserve that,
How much did your pompous post help this thread?You answered in regard to what?
Explain me the killings spaniards did to the native americans because they had to be turend into christians?
Explain why china,communist contry,is eating away worlds economy with its export superpower and why no christian helps to remedy this?Is this question even religion related?
You flag all Dictators to atheism?Milions of people died to stalins.
Ok,hitler was a christian,he is a bigger masmurderer than anybody else.
Do I moam about that,
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Adrius
Honorable
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Stand and fight!
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posted March 21, 2011 07:34 PM |
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Nah you see, a christian cannot murder. A person that commits murder ceases to be a christian immediately. A person that claims to be a christian and murders is a liar.
That's the idea anyway.
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