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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 30, 2011 12:28 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 12:33, 30 Jun 2011.
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Poll Question:
Tier Strength Comparison
For some time now I have been a little peeved by the fact that core units seem relatively strong compared to the other two tiers, while champions somewhat underpowered in general. I have heard similar complaints but I wanted to have a more accurate idea of what the community thinks. Apart from voting, please share your thoughts on the matter - be them sentimental or related to balance. It could be a simple matter of taste but regardless I'd like to know.
Below you can find the approximate value ranges, should help you get a broader picture. Keep in mind that there is more to the stats than shown, as splash damage, double attacks, different growth levels or physical/magical resistances but this is to get a basic idea.
CORE
General Dmg: 2-8
General Hp: 18-35, usually 20+
ELITE
General Dmg: 13-21, only exception spring spirit at 9 min dmg
General Hp: 60-100
CHAMPION
General Dmg: 40-50+
General Hp: 200-300
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted June 30, 2011 12:40 PM |
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I voted spotlight, even if it goes against the principle of the new tier system.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 12:51 PM |
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What about growth? Without the growth multiplier it's hard to say anything about balance
I'd say cores should be more of utility (like praetorians and sisters are for instance) and elites should do the hard hitting, while champions would dominate the battlefield with not so much stats, but powerful abilities.
Haven't played much this version, but from closed beta we all agreed iirc that the elites were too weak.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 30, 2011 12:58 PM |
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I'm for a slight improvement of the Elites and not so slight of the Champions. Currently the Cores are way too powerful compared to the upper tiers. Specifically, you don't really need Elites until the mid-game and when the Champions come into play, they are overwhelmed by the hordes of Cores.
Or at least that's how it was in the private beta. 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 30, 2011 01:05 PM |
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@Avirosb
How so? I always thought that the point of this system was to group together each tier so that they all have similar importance to you.
I do agree with the spotlight in that I'd want elites to kick some core @ss and champions to rule in general. However I would be satisfied if we simply tweaked the current system, for instance reduce core hp by 15% and improve champion hp by 15%, dmg by 50%. Maybe a small dmg boost on elites. I find it annoying how a champion can barely kill 2 core units in one blow if at all. Plus they can take a while to build..
PS the situation hasn't changed much from the closed beta(1.2).
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted June 30, 2011 01:12 PM |
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Quote:
I always thought that the point of this system was to group together each tier so that they all have similar importance to you.
Exactly, which is why I am against it. I don't like how they chose to glorify core creatures/nerf champions.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 01:14 PM |
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Quote:
PS the situation hasn't changed much from the closed beta(1.2).
That is just bad. What's the point in MP to get champions, then... I'd rather spend that cash on more cores. And if I'm THAT rich - get another castle and build more cores -_- especially with castle conversion feature.
Imho the ideal balance would be core units being awesome utility, and decent in survivability, but mediocre in damage dealing.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 30, 2011 01:15 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 13:19, 30 Jun 2011.
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That isn't part of the system, in much the same way they could reduce strength between the 7 tiers.. Rest is up to balancing which is why we are having this discussion in the first place.
@Doomforge
Plus the fact that upgrading cores offers a nice growth boost and the fact that core dwellings on the adventure map give almost the same growth as your town, both pushing you further down that road. Right now elites and champions can wait..
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 01:19 PM |
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Imo, there's one value that needs to be tuned down big time for the cores and that's their growth. It goes out of proportions extremely fast and I'm still at a loss as to why they freaking increased the core growth through the upgrade buildings in the cities ...
Otherwise, I'd be more in favor for some light nerfs to specific units (like Sisters' heal or Ghost's "heal") and some stat adjustments. Elites could hit slightly harder and Champions need some major love (without going back to the 1 champion killing hundreds of cores).
One thing that is utterly destroying high level units is the fact that Defense (Might or Magic) are raw % reduction and as anyone with a brain knows, % hurt more units with higher numbers than the ones with lower numbers.
You can easily boost the defense % of cores to very high numbers (60-70% damage reduction with stone skin + a might hero) which makes lower amount of Elites or Champions hit them like sissies while the opposite is not true.
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Kitten
Known Hero
Roar
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posted June 30, 2011 01:19 PM |
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Edited by Kitten at 13:36, 30 Jun 2011.
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For elite, maybe for most units 18-25 dmg (fully upgraded) And more P.Atk/M.Atk if needed. I think Tier 6 in HoMM5 was a bit too strong so don't want them to be in that area.
For Champions, I like Elvin's suggestion with 15% HP Boost, 200 seems very low so maybe 250-330 or so; or 350  Also same with Elites, maybe higher P.Atk/M.Atk if needed. I think tier 7 in HoMM had too little HP. while they had a boost in atk and def compared to HoMM3, they lost HP. And more damage, like up to 70 for some fully upgraded ones while others get 55-60 or so, 50-70
I think the core unit seems fine, they might take time to take down near the start but maybe in mid-game/end-game when you got lots of units, higher lvl hero with artifacts they fall more swiftly.
Oh wait I think better have the Champions much better but not as good as in MM Clash of Heores. Seeing the def% can go high, it wouldn't hurt to have the Champions 80-100 dmg.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 01:26 PM |
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Quote:
Imo, there's one value that needs to be tuned down big time for the cores and that's their growth. It goes out of proportions extremely fast and I'm still at a loss as to why they freaking increased the core growth through the upgrade buildings in the cities ...
This is actually a good idea imho. Lowered growth is imho better than losing a few cores every combat because they have paper HP and die to two peasants scoring lucky strike (see tier1 creatures in HoMM5). This equalizes creeping of might and magic heroes, unlike HoMM5 where certain solutions for early game provided insane advantage against neutrals (ballista, summoning, destructive, etc.) and factions without such solutions were usually screwed at smaller maps because they had no way of having equal level of development.
Elites need HP, and most importantly, damage. Champions need skills that make them fearsome, I'd rather see them having amazing skills (similar to Kensei's chain attacks) than +10 ATT/DEF and +100HP added to them.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 30, 2011 01:34 PM |
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The Champions need both higher stats and more powerful skills. For example, right now the most useful individual skill in the Inferno line-up belongs to the... Demented. After a few exchanged strikes it could turn into a monster. While the Pit Fiend... what about it?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted June 30, 2011 01:37 PM |
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I certainly support a wider gap between the strength of the tiers (and have for a long time now). Elites aren't worth the price of their dwellings and Cores just dominate the game at the moment - their growth is insane. In fact I think 18-35 HP is way too high for that tier. More like 10-25 at best.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Crayfish
Known Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 01:48 PM |
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Edited by Crayfish at 13:56, 30 Jun 2011.
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I'd like to see an enormous gulf between tiers, with elite taking time to save up for but offering a huge boost in power, and champions being not only incredibly expensive in terms of the dwelling, but also each unit costing a lot (e.g. 10) crystal. So much so that you might not always be able to build a champion dwelling on an average small-medium map, or only at great sacrifice, and would rarely expect to own more than 5-10 champions even on larger maps.
I'd also like to see dwelling upgrades become much more expensive and upgraded creatures be more powerful relative to the un-upgraded version. Beta H6 is slightly better in this respect than H5 but it could increase the gap further.
This to me would make town development more strategic - do you buy all the core dwellings and rush, is it more worthwhile to buy the expensive core upgrade or the expensive elite dwelling, how about saving everything and putting all of your resources into an elite dwelling and its upgrade? I favour making choice a necessity rather than just handing out enough resources to buy everything.
H5 got around the excess resource problem with more things to spend money on - artifact merchants, runes, creature artifacts, those spell merchant things, war machines, memory mentors etc. to spend money on - I'd rather H6 could do it by making all resources valuable right through the game. There should always be a hard choice to be made about where to spend resources.
So that's the wishlist. As for the situation right now, I think that cores feel about right at the start of the game, but by 8 weeks in their extreme growth starts to make them drastically overpowered compared to the other tiers. Elites could be a bit stronger, but with core growth tuned down they might not feel weak, I think it's more about numbers, most elites are still individually quite powerful compared to core. I haven't really played enough to comment on champions yet. Adventure map core dwellings might be half the problem, maybe they should just be less effective.
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted June 30, 2011 01:49 PM |
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Edited by Smithey at 13:50, 30 Jun 2011.
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In all previous Heroes games, core units served no purpose as the game progressed, I actually like the fact that core units turned into relevant ones, I want the game to be one that will challange me to use my strategy skills by combining all 7 creatures instead of just 3-4...
With that being said, I would prefer they find a bit more of a "middle ground" where core units won't overwhelm Champions and Elites with their numbers, downgrade growth numbers of core or upgrade the growth of elites and champions, dmg of core down a notch, dmg of elites up a notch, champions can stay as they were far as Im concerned because I still have nightmares of when Purple dragon from heroes 1 just couldnt be killed by any core period...
Let's keep in mind that champions are merely champions of the army and not the entire army, the more planning it takes to use all 7 creatures the deeper the games strategic aspects become....
Prices need to go down as well btw...
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 01:58 PM |
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Quote:
This to me would make town development more strategic - do you buy all the core dwellings and rush, is it more worthwhile to buy the expensive core upgrade or the expensive elite dwelling, how about saving everything and putting all of your resources into an elite dwelling and its upgrade? I favour making choice a necessity rather than just handing out enough resources to buy everything.
Where's the fun in having 20% of your army each game because you can't afford the rest?
Just promotes cookie-cutter strategies. ie - small map, build this and that, rush. Big map - do this and that, turtle.
Adventure map core dwellings should be nerfed, definitively
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 30, 2011 02:00 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 14:01, 30 Jun 2011.
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The Champions just aren't worth investing in - like the Elites until certain point of the game. In the private beta 6-7 Fate Spinners facing 50-60 random Cores in a direct HtH combat couldn't win without losses - and by the time when you'll normally have this amount of Champions, the Cores will be hundreds - except of course if you aren't exploiting something.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted June 30, 2011 02:00 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 14:01, 30 Jun 2011.
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Quote:
In all previous Heroes games, core units served no purpose as the game progressed
No purpose?
What about Skeleton resurrection and the Familiar's mana leech?
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Wckey
Famous Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 02:03 PM |
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Edited by Wckey at 14:10, 30 Jun 2011.
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Spending time and resources so you can have elites while your enemy is buying only core creatures is suicide.
I have no problems with core creatures, but their growth is insane (however, better than the previous beta ).
Elite creatures, on the other hand, need more growth. Their stats aren't really a problem if the obective is to not have a big gap between core and elites, but why having 3 Sun Cruzaders and 3 Glories when you can have over 50 core creatures?
I didn't played with a Champion yet, so I don't know.
Another thing, I have a feeling that core creatures are great to develop strategies in combat, but with elites there's no big strategy you can use unless your hero has lots of skills.
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Come back soon, Elvin!
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Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
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posted June 30, 2011 02:05 PM |
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Is it my idea or in H6 we will no longer have one charge that kills hordes of small units at once? I hope it is more than my idea...
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
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