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conqr
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 07, 2011 11:21 PM |
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Edited by conqr at 23:31, 07 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
The only thing you certainly lose is 1 week's worth of Cores. The rest is easily compensated by the fact that the Champions are excellent for creeping and thus resource gathering (haven't seen how the Kirin manages though) and with level 3 town you already have at least 2000 gold income. With this "rush" I managed to fully develop a town faster than with the standard build starting with Cores and get much more Champions.
Rushing to champions is a though decision considering they are actually not more cost effective then cores. If you divide their damage and hp/def with their cost, then cores are actually better. If you have access to 'infinite' cores then investing in them might actually be a better option.
On the other hand their high defense is a big plus with healing/regeneration so they indeed can be helpful in creeping. And you might actually be able to save a few spells because of the high hp, wich might pay off in a 'long-term' faster creeping.
On hard difficulty getting town/city hall + champion is somewhat safely possible (day7), even getting basic fortification falls into the "possible" category. But in some cases you will not be able to do it, and if you realise that on day6/7 that you will be 1 crystal short, than it will put you behind. (On most starting positions you can check this on day1 though.)
And altough with the way healing works right now you can creep very effectively on the first week without building core dwellings, with building the champ dwelling you are trading 25-30 cores for 2/3 champions. If the champions ability is worth it, then it can be a good deal. I like going for fast champion, but pit fiends are the one that i would say are definetly worth investing in on the first week. (They are incredibly effective at creeping on their own even with a weak secondary hero, you can creep in more directions at the same time very effectively.)
With that being said, i would really like to see some improvement in champions/elits cost effectiveness. Its ok to me if you can get them early with a good amount of planning, but just make them better (even if it needs adjusting the weekly growth..) But as JJ said as well, their are numerous things that needs to be fixed before this can be considered.
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pacifist
Famous Hero
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posted July 07, 2011 11:35 PM |
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On hard you have 0 blood cristals in the beginning no? Some champions need 15 cristals but others 20 or 25. We capture the cristal mine day 1, that gives us 6 cristals, have to find 9 to 19 depending on town with the cristal piles that many times give 1 only. Trading everything is very costly. A note : The chests are not predetermined, you can change value after reload, but it ends with a loop at a moment so beware  . Anyway, as it is, I agree that going for champions is interesting, we can still have cores if we hire new heroes (cost grows but with money from lv3 town...). 3 starting heroes can clear the area in less than 6 days, only problem can be break passage but can be done with a good prepared hero (with all troops + dwelling).
Anyone tried hiring foreign heroes for their troops? Healers for ex? Moral problem in some cases but not always. Stronghold help by some sisters . Inferno and Necropolis have -5 penalty but I didn't see much negative effects with my Pit fiend riding might necro .
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http://www.youtube.com/user/alkoriak#g/u
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 07, 2011 11:47 PM |
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Going for a quick Champion is not aimed at easier creeping but at long-term benefits - mainly if we talk about maps where encountering the other player before the end of the third or the fourth week is unlikely. If you get the Champion dwelling ASAP, you'll have larger Champion population when you meet the opponent and additionally you'll have just slightly less Cores than him if he's going for Cores during week 1 himself. Obviously that's quite an advantage for you because the Champions can do some pretty nasty things if their numbers are sufficient and if they are used correctly. Leaving them a second priority though reduces their role significantly. That's a balance issue on its own because early Champions offers a very strong (maybe even too strong) build later and late Champions puts the accent on the Cores. Hence my suggestion for improved Champions which are harder to get.
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Crayfish
Known Hero
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posted July 07, 2011 11:52 PM |
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Edited by Crayfish at 00:04, 08 Jul 2011.
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Not sure if people are playing slightly differently balanced versions sometimes. My Steam H6 beta seems to change every time I play. In the games I just played, elites were seriously kicking ass (about 20 Lamasus killed 75% of my 100 or so cores) and when I tried to rush champion in another game I just couldn't get the resources. Also units healed through regeneration didn't stay at the end of the combat... I'm sure they used to?!
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conqr
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 12:10 AM |
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Edited by conqr at 00:17, 08 Jul 2011.
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On hard you have 0 blood cristals in the beginning no? Some champions need 15 cristals but others 20 or 25. We capture the cristal mine day 1, that gives us 6 cristals, have to find 9 to 19 depending on town with the cristal piles that many times give 1 only.
That is correct, last time i checked i had 19/19/13 (w/o/c) lying around in my staring area, and one time i had 20/21/15. Wood and ore is not a problem, but for champions that need 25 crystal you might have to break out of your starting location.
Quote:
Going for a quick Champion is not aimed at easier creeping but at long-term benefits
The one going for the cores can start building fortification levels on week one, and the champion dwelling on week2. If this is the case you will not be more than 2-3 champions ahead. And week2 champion is safer. Im not saying that fast champion is not good, im only implying that aside from pit fiends it might not be a definite adventage (except for creeping). My concern is (as i said) their cost-effectiveness, but i did not have the time to do enough testing on this, so if you say fast champions are definetly better i wont (couldnt) convince you otherwise (for now : D..).
Quote:
Not sure if people are playing slightly differently balanced versions sometimes. My Steam H6 beta seems to change every time I play. In the games I just played, elites were seriously kicking ass (about 20 Lamasus killed 75% of my 100 or so cores) and when I tried to rush champion in another game I just couldn't get the resources. Also units healed through regeneration didn't stay at the end of the combat... I'm sure they used to?!
Im playing the public beta pre 1.1 (steam..). It can very well be possible that you dont end up with the neccessary resourses on your starting area. A little planning is needed though considering the heros movement. I would suggest to try it on the starting location on the left side.
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pacifist
Famous Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 12:14 AM |
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Another comparison : I had a pit fiend from external dwelling, gave it to a lv2 might necro (special defense). He just went exploring other parts of the world and captured a town, converted it and the external dwelling close was guarded by a pack of kensai (14). Info was "deadly" . But with the help of a regeneration (37 hp) and only one cast (I could afford 3 casts with 50 sp) the fight was won easily, wait, move in corner, defend, regeneration, ... There were 4 stacks (3-3-4-4) but of course the fight could have been very dangerous if there was only 1 or even 2...anyway, no risk since fleeing just cost a day and 500 gold . The pit fiend stays .
Someone knows if the racials work? A way to have 2nd level of racials? I reached only 8 level in my games so maybe not enough?
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http://www.youtube.com/user/alkoriak#g/u
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conqr
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 12:28 AM |
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Edited by conqr at 00:34, 08 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
Another comparison : I had a pit fiend from external dwelling, gave it to a lv2 might necro (special defense). He just went exploring other parts of the world and captured a town, converted it and the external dwelling close was guarded by a pack of kensai (14).
Yes, pit fiends are really effective when the naturals are divided into more stacks (when they feel they are much more powerful than you, they will be in 4-5 stacks usually, and since you can only have a few pits one day 8 that works out really well)
I played a lot with them lately, and they are indeed really great. If you are up against undead naturals regeneration is ok, but against the others life drain + stand your ground is really effective as well. Aside from the naturals with no retaliation, strong undead stacks, and other pits.. 2 of them can creep almost everything in the first few weeks.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 08, 2011 12:38 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Another comparison : I had a pit fiend from external dwelling, gave it to a lv2 might necro (special defense). He just went exploring other parts of the world and captured a town, converted it and the external dwelling close was guarded by a pack of kensai (14).
Yes, pit fiends are really effective when the naturals are divided into more stacks (when they feel they are much more powerful than you, they will be in 4-5 stacks usually, and since you can only have a few pits one day 8 that works out really well)
I played a lot with them lately, and they are indeed really great. If you are up against undead naturals regeneration is ok, but against the others life drain + stand your ground is really effective as well. Aside from the naturals with no retaliation, strong undead stacks, and other pits.. 2 of them can creep almost everything in the first few weeks.
Which does not mean that pitlords are balanced,yes?
Only because you are able to achieve something does not mean that pitloards are balanced. Cores>> Elites or champions.
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pacifist
Famous Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 12:53 AM |
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Well, seems we can test the first 2 weeks only since the fortifications don't work if there are some save/load betweem  . I took regeneration because it's universal. I tested drain but not in current version, so that changed maybe but I was not happy with the previous results. Well the vampire also is downgraded from other heroes games but he has the fantastic ability "out of time". The AI just likes to attack them anyway, so good to lure it away from other troops . The pit fiend is awesome, but so is the cyclop and I was very happy with the celestial too. The kirin I didn't test with low numbers but his speed helps to run away temporary from crowded areas . Only the Mantaru I didn't test but a full range magical attack deals big damage too.
I just hope the "weeks of" will disappear, too random, week of festival (grr), growth 1/3, etc,.... Also the good ones I don't like either  .
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http://www.youtube.com/user/alkoriak#g/u
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Crayfish
Known Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 09:00 AM |
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I don't like the bad weeks either. Does anyone?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted July 08, 2011 09:06 AM |
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Insofar as fantasy goes: That's life.
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vaeledrin
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 09:21 AM |
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Quote:
That is correct, last time i checked i had 19/19/13 (w/o/c) lying around in my staring area, and one time i had 20/21/15. Wood and ore is not a problem, but for champions that need 25 crystal you might have to break out of your starting location.
On position 1 of Broken Alliance it's pretty much determined by whether or not your camp fires yield crystals or not. Either way, Necropolis cannot rush champions on Hard.
Quote:
The one going for the cores can start building fortification levels on week one, and the champion dwelling on week2. If this is the case you will not be more than 2-3 champions ahead. And week2 champion is safer. Im not saying that fast champion is not good, im only implying that aside from pit fiends it might not be a definite adventage (except for creeping). My concern is (as i said) their cost-effectiveness, but i did not have the time to do enough testing on this, so if you say fast champions are definetly better i wont (couldnt) convince you otherwise (for now : D..).
Depending on creep RNG/hero and faction selection and map settings you could clear out position 1 starting area sans arena. That being said, you'll have some cores regardless. The real question is whether or not having those extra champions (currently 5+) would be worth having lowered core production (I have no idea what the difference is).
I actually do prefer my seraphims/pit lords/cyclops (I don't play Sanctuary at all) over my cores. Maybe because I have this natural affinity towards champions. Call it the scrub in me or whatever else.
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 09:50 AM |
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Quote:
I don't like the bad weeks either. Does anyone?
I don't like any of the weeks, not even the good ones.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 10:46 AM |
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on the whole champion stuff: I can creep anything on the map (broken alliance) with a full pop of cores (sometimes even that isn't necessary), so I don't need to gimp myself through champions to creep well.
Until external dwellings aren't nerfed, the real competitive way (that isn't luck based like the champion rush) is core spam. Get core dwellings, get external dwelling @ week 1, get another castle if possible @ week 1 or two. I think external dwelling will boost both your castles so it will work as if you had like 4 "normal" castles. With such numbers, few champions more will not be any threat at all.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Crayfish
Known Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 11:06 AM |
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Edited by Crayfish at 11:10, 08 Jul 2011.
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Insofar as fantasy goes: That's life.
I like my fantasies to be nice, not aaaugh it's week of the plague and no one can do anything for an entire week aaaugh. That's the fantasy of a sadomasochist!
Reminds me of Rimmer's interactions with Better Life if anyone's a Red Dwarf fan... his self esteem is so low that even in a virtual reality where he has absolute control, everyone hates him and his life is absurdly awful.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted July 08, 2011 11:18 AM |
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Relax, it's just one week. You get over it
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conqr
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 11:24 AM |
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Edited by conqr at 11:28, 08 Jul 2011.
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Which does not mean that pitlords are balanced,yes?
Only because you are able to achieve something does not mean that pitloards are balanced. Cores>> Elites or champions.
No, the fact that one champion has one very 'cool' trick will not make the tier better in itself. But you might be knocking on open doors here, i was concerned about the way elits/champions are right now as well.
But it has to be added, that under the current circumstances its not easy to tell too much about balance. If the core external dwellings will get their nerf, and/or there wont be that many on a map, than the growth of champions will make the champion stack to be the most dominant in your army. BUT that indeed wont change the fact that stats-wise champions will still not feal like they are.. champions, in most cases not even if we add in abilities. I would vote for improving their stats considerably (even reduce their growth if needed, that would make them more 'unique').
Quote:
I took regeneration because it's universal. I tested drain but not in current version, so that changed maybe but I was not happy with the previous results. Well the vampire also is downgraded from other heroes games but he has the fantastic ability "out of time".
Regen is a good all around choice. Lifedrain is better than it was. Of course stand your ground + life drain is only needed against very though naturals.
Quote:
On position 1 of Broken Alliance it's pretty much determined by whether or not your camp fires yield crystals or not. Either way, Necropolis cannot rush champions on Hard.
I tried it a few times, and on position1 i get 19/19/13 while on position2 it is 20/21/15. On pos1 it depends on campfires (if they are random at least.. : d ). It can be possible with necropilis, but of course you have to break out of your starting area (i could amass 25 crystals on pos2).
Quote:
The real question is whether or not having those extra champions (currently 5+) would be worth having lowered core production (I have no idea what the difference is).
It will be just two instead of that five very soon though. My main concern is the fact that stat wise they arent 'that' good. Considering balance it can be worth it in certain (or even many) cases, i do not have enough experience to have a relevant opinion on this. But i know that the number of cores you can get for the price of 10 champions will in most cases beat them (neither uses abilities), but if you do the test with only one champion it will fare better of course. In creeping fast champions might provide enough advantages to be worth the risk (you need less mana for lossless fights).
I'd wait for the first balance path to actually talk about balance (but again my 'concern' right now is the fact that champions feel somewhat weak for my taste).
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 08, 2011 12:10 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 12:11, 08 Jul 2011.
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By the way am I facing a bug here or the Champions' growth has been reduced to 2 per week with all growth increasing structures built (including the respective dwelling upgraded)? I believe it was 3 or 4 before.
Edit: No week of something decreasing growth by the way.
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castiel_789
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 11, 2011 06:02 AM |
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i find it kind a funny i find it kind of sad
how i was playing and experimenting on a map earlier and i had a level 12 haven magic hero with an army consisting of this
crossbowman ~58
sentinel ~55
sister ~55
griffin 05
radiant glory 18
sun rider 12
i decided to attack a level 30 might necro hero with an army like this
skeletal spearman 119
ravenous ghoul 08
specter 09
Dont ask why i love to do this kind of stuff so i decided to go all out to test unit strength especially elite just had them for the first time. Sister and radiant glory could deal the highest damage of all but we all know why (light based attack and boosted by my magic hero attack) the other where doing pitiful damage so i resorted to magic (Sunburst and heal) i had crossbowman left and he had around ~60 skeleton left. He escaped and didn't use any magic or attack in the fight. weird
Than i return at his castle this time whit this (this time i was level 17) couldn't buy more than this
Marksman ~200
praetorian ~200
vestal ~200
blazing glory ~24
Same level 30 hero who does nothing but attack this time. He has this
skeletal spearman ~110
ravenous ghoul 80
specter 89
archlich 59
putrid lamasu 42
vampire lord 53
fate weaver 6
This time i had couple more spell including implosion and this time i won keeping a good part of my army
it does seem weird but i guess this is just beta or something is wrong i don't feel has my elite are doing any work.
But i was thinking in beta i never saw outside dwelling for elite (maybe they will add them later but then again it add to cost and it already hard to have champion balancing is tough)
By the way if you wanna know there was another time i had 25 seraph with my 17 magic hero when it attacked it could kill 1 or two of any elite and 7 to 10 core.
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vaeledrin
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 11, 2011 11:49 AM |
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Castiel,
You posted the exact same thing from the Ubi forums and didn't even bother to investigate the replies.
I am going to tell you again: Play the map a bit more and pay a bit more attention or use the search function. Yes, there are elite dwellings.
But really your post could use some work.
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