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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 15, 2011 11:38 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 23:38, 15 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
We have 5 races and none is better than the other:
lilim is supreme over all other but not undead
pit lord smashes everyone except stronghold
upg. ghosts prevents everyone from healing but suffers add. Light damage from healers etc
Actually at the moment Necropolis is clearly superior to all other factions and the rest are far from balanced.
As for the Pit Fiend - currently it is relatively easy to deal with it as long as you don't attack it with melee creatures which can be retaliated against. Even by just shooting at it, it can be killed relatively quickly and the factions which don't have no-retaliation front troops have good shooters. It does remain dangerous but not as much as the Cyclops for example which has skills which just can't be countered (or are quite difficult to counter) if the respective player decides to employ them. The Pit Fiend needs some extra offensive power, slightly more durability and significantly improved Boundless Hate for the Pit Lord to be truly effective. Right now it's just a good creature from a faction which has mediocre and bad creatures to support it.
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vaeledrin
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 16, 2011 04:17 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
We have 5 races and none is better than the other:
lilim is supreme over all other but not undead
pit lord smashes everyone except stronghold
upg. ghosts prevents everyone from healing but suffers add. Light damage from healers etc
Actually at the moment Necropolis is clearly superior to all other factions and the rest are far from balanced.
As for the Pit Fiend - currently it is relatively easy to deal with it as long as you don't attack it with melee creatures which can be retaliated against. Even by just shooting at it, it can be killed relatively quickly and the factions which don't have no-retaliation front troops have good shooters. It does remain dangerous but not as much as the Cyclops for example which has skills which just can't be countered (or are quite difficult to counter) if the respective player decides to employ them. The Pit Fiend needs some extra offensive power, slightly more durability and significantly improved Boundless Hate for the Pit Lord to be truly effective. Right now it's just a good creature from a faction which has mediocre and bad creatures to support it.
You really don't hesitate at all do you? Not that I am disputing your conclusions, but I would love to get my hands on whatever data you have in your current possession.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 16, 2011 09:13 AM |
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He just can't play with Inferno.  (No offense meant)
The main problem of balancing things at the moment comes from a disbalance between a conserving and destructive playing style. Necropolis, as the town with the conserving racial is - quite logically - the top conserving town.
Due to the fact that conserving abilities are very powerful and creature resistance on the BA map is a joke, compared for example with what the default mp maps in H5 come with, it's fairly easy to go through without losses, even if you have the forces of one hero only.
For Necro and Haven, and obviously for Sanctuary to a lesser extent as well, you can easily built on that and support the "natural" conserving aspect.
This is different with Inferno - overall game balancee forces them to invest in conserving stuff as well, without getting as effective in it as others, instead of building on their destructive capabilities which are rather massive.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted July 16, 2011 09:55 AM |
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Quote:
Just send all the kirins forward as much as possible (place them so they can go as far as they can, also if needed cast rush on your shooter stack when its the turn of the last kirin). Now you have roughly 50 tile worth of mist. If coral/yuki gets moral shoot with it. If it doesn't just go one step on the mist (Repeat this until you have mist left).
Interesting....don;t want to keep losing Kirins though? But nice idea with the shooters always getting morale....
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 16, 2011 09:55 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 09:56, 16 Jul 2011.
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Well, I'd love to be proven wrong in a regular MP game when this option becomes available. If the current state remains as it is, I'm fairly sure that if I play with Necropolis and you with Inferno - which I apparently don't understand (I admit that I find only the Heroes III Inferno to my liking, not the next versions) - you will have a very hard time winning at the very least.  Of course we can speculate a lot at this point and your point isn't any more valid than mine given that there have been no adequate tests. Even though, my conclusions are pretty clear and based on previous experience which is rather constant - Necropolis gets buffed in many areas without getting nerfed in others for compensation and the result is a faction qualified as IMB.
As for the Inferno - I haven't really commented it that much here, only the Pit Fiend. I won't mind to see how can you maximize its effectiveness though, especially against Necropolis which are... hm, immune to one of its more dangerous abilities.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 16, 2011 10:54 AM |
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Quote:
He just can't play with Inferno. (No offense meant)
The main problem of balancing things at the moment comes from a disbalance between a conserving and destructive playing style. Necropolis, as the town with the conserving racial is - quite logically - the top conserving town.
Due to the fact that conserving abilities are very powerful and creature resistance on the BA map is a joke, compared for example with what the default mp maps in H5 come with, it's fairly easy to go through without losses, even if you have the forces of one hero only.
For Necro and Haven, and obviously for Sanctuary to a lesser extent as well, you can easily built on that and support the "natural" conserving aspect.
This is different with Inferno - overall game balancee forces them to invest in conserving stuff as well, without getting as effective in it as others, instead of building on their destructive capabilities which are rather massive.
I think this is a very interesting point! What I would lie to know is - what kind of maps will allow Inferno to come to their right? And I'm not asking to dispute you, but I honestly would like to know this, as I find it a very difficult faction to play with currently (yes, Lilim + Demented make for decent creeping, but losses are an issue).
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What will happen now?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 16, 2011 11:27 AM |
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This is an issue as old as the series - how to make the factions equally competitive on all maps. If certain faction isn't worth choosing on certain map and the other factions are performing well, it is hardly the map's fault that the faction in question can't adapt itself like the others though.
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conqr
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 16, 2011 12:04 PM |
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Edited by conqr at 12:16, 16 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
yes, Lilim + Demented make for decent creeping, but losses are an issue).
A few ideas:
Going for fast pit fiends solves almost any issue one can have with creeping on the second week. 2 pits with life drain is enough against everything that is living, and can be retaliated to.
First week you can choose regeneration + a hero with mana bonus and the additional mana skill on level2. (there are other good options) Inferno 'regenerates' its mana fearly fast.
Against shooters leave 1-2 of them at the end of the combat, and regenerate yourself back.
Against walkers using gating 'well' helps a lot. Sometimes being agressive with the gated stack while being passive with the real one helps drawing attention away.
I usually have only the troops i get from heroes on the first week, and clearing the starting area with no losses is possible (there are two stacks usually that might couse minor losses, but if you go 'fast' demented + life drain /regen even that wont be a problem. Losing 1-5 cores first week usually wont put you behind, the pits will creep really fast on their own, they will compensate.
Btw, demented + life drain + stand your ground can kill 'infinite' living naturals. You probably were aware of all this, but after the first week there arent really losses, with just really minor ones on the first.
Edit: Against living melee stacks dont use lilims, just demented + lifedrain + stand your ground, you can put the demented into the corner if necessary, but with 22-26 of them you can kill 30 jaguar warriors without losses, or 30 lamasus with losing maybe 4.
Quote:
Interesting....don;t want to keep losing Kirins though? But nice idea with the shooters always getting morale....
Most likely you will kill the opponent/naturals on the first turn. With 20 moral you will have 10+ actions. That is an incredible damage on the last few shots.
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Btw, can anyone confirm that the growth of the enraged cyclops is 5?
Is earth and sky affecting kirins is a bug?
Earth and sky is really powerful.. granting the cyclops a clear mighty slam with inner fire.. its devastating.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 16, 2011 12:30 PM |
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I will try some of those tips, thanx. I really hate that going directly for Pit Fiends is necessary, though - I would like it if game was balanced so that you could not (and should not) rush directly for champions - but I guess we have to make the best with what we have.
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What will happen now?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 16, 2011 02:29 PM |
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You don't need to do it. A magic hero with regeneration is enough to creep everything on the map. Lilim's ability is extremely powerful and even if you took loses, just keep using this ability and casting regeneration on the last, weakened creepstack until you're back to 100% shape.
Boring but extremely effective.
I cleaned two parts of Broken Alliance map without any loses with just Lilim and Demented using this trick. I wasn't even using vampirism (only inner fire on lilim). Adding stand your ground and vampirism would be pretty lol for those creeps that aren't affected by Lilim's ability.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 16, 2011 03:01 PM |
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Well, the maimn point is, that the CONSERVING strategies - defensive buffs, Healing (Sisters, Ghosts, Priestesses), Spells (Healing, Regeneration + for Necro and Haven the Racial)), - in combination with the cheap and effective Hero attack (which supports delaying action because hero damage gets more with each combat round) are a more powerful combination right now as brutal attack power + Gating, especially with the comparably weak neutrals.
If it was balanced, Inferno would play brutally aggressive, losing the odd unit, having shorter fights, finishing for example in 3 rounds losing 1 unit, while the others would have less attack power, but better defense, finishing in 6 rounds, but losing 1 unit as well.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 16, 2011 08:26 PM |
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Quote:
You don't need to do it. A magic hero with regeneration is enough to creep everything on the map. Lilim's ability is extremely powerful and even if you took loses, just keep using this ability and casting regeneration on the last, weakened creepstack until you're back to 100% shape.
Regeneration helps indeed but requires Magic hero to be used more or less effectively if you go against a relatively large neutral stack. As for the Lilim - if I understand how their ability works, its duration depends on the size of the Lilim stack in comparison with the size of the stack on which it is used. If the power ratio (no idea how it is calculated) is 1:1, then the victim is put to sleep for 1 round. If it is larger than that in favour of the Lilim, the duration is higher. If it is in favour of the targeted stack, the Lilim may not be able to use the skill at all until the "victims" become less. At least these are my observations. And it definitely sucks when you have to deal with neutral undead because you can't employ neither Drain Life, nor Enthrall. Against player-controlled undead obviously it sucks even more.
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted July 16, 2011 08:48 PM |
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Does anyone knows when exactly the PACIFICATION ability works?...last time worked all the time on every single unit, but today didnt work at all.
Just have no idea on this issue...
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 16, 2011 08:51 PM |
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Maybe enemy stack was stronger?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted July 16, 2011 08:53 PM |
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in number, yes...could be.. thx
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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vaeledrin
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 17, 2011 12:07 AM |
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Quote:
He just can't play with Inferno. (No offense meant)
The main problem of balancing things at the moment comes from a disbalance between a conserving and destructive playing style. Necropolis, as the town with the conserving racial is - quite logically - the top conserving town.
Due to the fact that conserving abilities are very powerful and creature resistance on the BA map is a joke, compared for example with what the default mp maps in H5 come with, it's fairly easy to go through without losses, even if you have the forces of one hero only.
For Necro and Haven, and obviously for Sanctuary to a lesser extent as well, you can easily built on that and support the "natural" conserving aspect.
This is different with Inferno - overall game balancee forces them to invest in conserving stuff as well, without getting as effective in it as others, instead of building on their destructive capabilities which are rather massive.
I don't understand this conserve/destruction concept in application to H6. It doesn't really exist outside the fact that some factions have healers that can be grabbed (or skipped entirely, you don't have to use ghosts right off the bat depending on build order/play style though it would be tedious not to). As Necropolis you're still going to pick up regeneration and other defensive skills, no? In a matter of fact everyone probably does seeing how silly damaging spells are in its current format which really skews balance.
Oh yes, and necropolis is suppose to take losses from the racial but in its current state it doesn't. I remember getting trolled by someone here earlier when I stated that you could just get on by with the racial in its current state rather than rely on regeneration and ghosts.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 17, 2011 08:50 AM |
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Quote:
I don't understand this conserve/destruction concept in application to H6. It doesn't really exist outside the fact that some factions have healers that can be grabbed (or skipped entirely, you don't have to use ghosts right off the bat depending on build order/play style though it would be tedious not to). As Necropolis you're still going to pick up regeneration and other defensive skills, no? In a matter of fact everyone probably does seeing how silly damaging spells are in its current format which really skews balance.
Isn't this exactly the point that Jolly-Joker was trying to make? That due to massive Health amage ratios even for Core creatures, and easy access to Healing (eh, Resurrection) for many factions, conserving strategy is extremely easy, which works against those factions that naturally would lean towards other approaches?
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What will happen now?
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 17, 2011 08:56 AM |
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Sanctuary, has first tier healers that also are ranged attackers. Free regen, 3 times. Normally suffer very few if ANY losses with them. Take hero regen/heal if you want, and you can go through whole map without a single loss except maybe enemy heroes.
Haven - Again first tier healers, though not as potent as Sanctuary at it. (Regen lasts 3 rounds, can be cast 3 times..that is 9 rounds!). Again free healing. Can also damage enemy. A few more losses, but again you can take skills that compensate.
Stronghold is a bit tougher. No healers. Units seem to be a bit stronger, but doesn't seem to help much. Have to put serious effort into keeping creatures alive.
Necropolipse - Healers can mess them up majorly. While they have the ability to call back some of their fallen, and they have a 1st tier healer..they seem to be a bit harder then Sanctuary or Haven..at least for me. *shrugs*
Inferno - No healers, at all. Forget what they can take at the moment but regen or life drain seems absolutely a must.
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Message received.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2011 09:04 AM |
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Well, you could go by without the racial as well (in an earlier version only part of the racial-raised Nec-creatures remained in the Necro army, which made it folly to use it )
The conserve/destroy conceept exists in terms of blood/tears: Combined with the game background it would mean that Stronghold and Inferno Might heroes at least would have no concept of conserving troops and defending and go for an all-out massacre instead. This means, they simple overwhelm the enemy with everything they have. The aim here is obviously to kill the enemy as fast as possible (and to hell with a few losses) - like a blood hero would do.
"Conserving" is the opposite.
Conserving takes longer, since not all your actions are bent on destroying the enemy - some are bent on buffing or even resurrecting your troops, and naturally better defenders are weaker attackers. All in all this means that with conserving strategies - Tears - a battle takes longer. Longer battles mean, however, more hero actions, and since the hero has possible two completely free actions, they are better.
Take simply the extreme: Take a big enemy stack. Hero starts with an action, friendly stack makes hard hit. Enemy leftover retaliates, killing one. Next friendly unit(s) finishing it. Battle over.
With conserving you LET the enemy hit your toughest stack which retaliates. Other troops heal the loss. Hero takes any action. Battle goes in round 2. Hero has another action, same procedure.... So hero has more actions, which he can use by dealing direct damage for free, using the racial, healing a unit, and so on.
Which means that if you have two BALANCED actions, one defensive/conserving and one offensive/dedstroying, the defensive one will be superior because it will also be an action towards longer battle and therefore more hero action (and cheap hero damage).
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted July 17, 2011 05:32 PM |
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Quote:
Maybe enemy stack was stronger?
well, made another test with vestals: 189 vestals vs 180 ghols...pacificaton effect didnt work! 
any idea?
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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