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odium
Known Hero
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posted July 03, 2011 04:09 PM |
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The game as it is right now is a bit boring. All the creatures produce damage way smaller compared to the hip points. Battles become very long, and most of the time with no strategical value but with a hit-heal cycle which last usually for at least 5 turns. I think the H5 style of play where things were decided in the first 1/2 turns was better. TBS games already have a problem in multiplayer because of their slow pace style, making creep battles last 5-7 turns will not help the future of the game.
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Crayfish
Known Hero
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posted July 03, 2011 11:23 PM |
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Edited by Crayfish at 23:28, 03 Jul 2011.
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Seems like a fairly substantial patch appeared recently. I just played and found elites (Vampire Lords) and champions (Fate Weavers) to be quite useful. Core growth is down, core dwellings give a saner boost and elite growth is at least double what it was. With the current architect 1 ability of +1 growth of all creatures, elite seem more viable.
Champion took me a while to save up for but I've read about other people buying the dwelling early. With a fully upgraded town, two architect 1 support heroes and a core dwelling I was getting +7 fate weavers, +12 vampire lords and +20 spectres each week. This feels right to me in terms of tier balance (maybe even a tad low for core now).
The resource balance (on normal) also currently feels good, crystals and gold were the main limiting factors for necro. A few bugs have been killed, dreamwalkers play better in combat and the game even seems to run smoother. However, creeping with no losses currently feels too easy imo (for necro). AI also seemed a bit taken aback by the changes, they weren't playing well.
Feeling more positive about the game after tonight's session. I think the right steps are being taken with bugkilling and balance. Town screens and inventory screen still bad but mechanics and general gameplay are turning out to be quite nice.
I'd say in terms of creeping, neutral creature numbers need to be increased around 25% and some aspects of healing could be reduced. Perhaps only a percentage of creatures resurrected through healing effects should stay in the army. Between mass life drain, necro racial and ghost/spectre special I found necro rarely sustained any losses even against enemies estimated as high or severe difficulty.
Also, it seems a bit odd to me that elementals are classed as 'living' and valid targets for things like life drain. I'd rather they were in a third category (not living or undead but resistant to some effects that target living creatures). That would make creeping slightly more difficult for necro.
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namad
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 04, 2011 01:30 AM |
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how do you benefit from TWO architect 1's at the same time? doesn't it only apply if it's an ability of the garison hero?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 04, 2011 07:35 AM |
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Nope. The ability effects the current are of a hero, no matter where you are in that area.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 04, 2011 11:06 AM |
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Quote:
The game as it is right now is a bit boring. All the creatures produce damage way smaller compared to the hip points. Battles become very long, and most of the time with no strategical value but with a hit-heal cycle which last usually for at least 5 turns. I think the H5 style of play where things were decided in the first 1/2 turns was better. TBS games already have a problem in multiplayer because of their slow pace style, making creep battles last 5-7 turns will not help the future of the game.
Have you tried using bloodlust, then flawless assault on a damage dealing stack like furies, demented, lilims and alike? It does over 1000 damage easily before the end of 1st month, which is enough to kill 30-50% of enemy stack.
H5 style of gameplay was just bad, everything was about first strike. It didn't really matter how many lizard riders you had against elves or haven, it was more then certain they will be dead after the first turn before even acting, which was kind of stupid. Also, this made factions with high-init fast units (like elves) nearly impossible to beat endgame, because before your army could move, it was already decimated heavily. The "first turn impact" was always a curse to this game, it killed strategy and it turned the gameplay into "who acts first wins". How is that "strategy"?
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Dungeonian
Adventuring Hero
Supreme matriarch
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posted July 04, 2011 11:12 AM |
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Quote:
Have you tried using bloodlust, then flawless assault on a damage dealing stack like furies, demented, lilims and alike? It does over 1000 damage easily before the end of 1st month, which is enough to kill 30-50% of enemy stack.
H5 style of gameplay was just bad, everything was about first strike. It didn't really matter how many lizard riders you had against elves or haven, it was more then certain they will be dead after the first turn before even acting, which was kind of stupid. Also, this made factions with high-init fast units (like elves) nearly impossible to beat endgame, because before your army could move, it was already decimated heavily. The "first turn impact" was always a curse to this game, it killed strategy and it turned the gameplay into "who acts first wins". How is that "strategy"?
+1 . I'm happy there no more H5 Vingaal killing 2/3 of your forces before any of its can move .
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The Darkness is the right hand of the Light , the Light is the left hand of the Darkness .
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Kitten
Known Hero
Roar
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posted July 04, 2011 11:53 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
The game as it is right now is a bit boring. All the creatures produce damage way smaller compared to the hip points. Battles become very long, and most of the time with no strategical value but with a hit-heal cycle which last usually for at least 5 turns. I think the H5 style of play where things were decided in the first 1/2 turns was better. TBS games already have a problem in multiplayer because of their slow pace style, making creep battles last 5-7 turns will not help the future of the game.
Have you tried using bloodlust, then flawless assault on a damage dealing stack like furies, demented, lilims and alike? It does over 1000 damage easily before the end of 1st month, which is enough to kill 30-50% of enemy stack.
H5 style of gameplay was just bad, everything was about first strike. It didn't really matter how many lizard riders you had against elves or haven, it was more then certain they will be dead after the first turn before even acting, which was kind of stupid. Also, this made factions with high-init fast units (like elves) nearly impossible to beat endgame, because before your army could move, it was already decimated heavily. The "first turn impact" was always a curse to this game, it killed strategy and it turned the gameplay into "who acts first wins". How is that "strategy"?
So true. I like how things are now, but that doesn't mean it was bad before. I can't seem to find this "Bloodlust" spell. I have looked on many Stronghold, Inferno and Necropolis heroes but I just can't find it  Anyone can say exactly where it is?
Also, does Architect 1 give +1 to all and stacks as well? I.E having 3 heroes with it will add +3 of every units a week
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 04, 2011 11:54 AM |
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It's a tier 1 fire spell.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Kitten
Known Hero
Roar
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posted July 04, 2011 12:05 PM |
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Oh I just tried "Inner Fire" and it gave a very huge boost in dmg, I assume that's the Bloodlust spell
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 04, 2011 12:11 PM |
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The fun part is that I barely remember the spell's name. I'm calling it bloodlust because that's what the spell has been always called in HoMM games 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Kitten
Known Hero
Roar
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posted July 04, 2011 12:25 PM |
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Hehe it's ok, the important thing is that I found it ^^ Thanks for for answer 
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namad
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 06, 2011 11:18 AM |
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i think the problem with tiers as it is now is this...
all of the creatures are balanced to be fair and balanced around their growth rates and gold costs.
now in homm1-5 this just wasn't true at all higher level creatures were flat out better use of gold in many cases!
in homm6 you are best off to get AS MANY cores as you can and then only spend your "spare resources" on getting elites and champions! this is because the costs of the structures are very high and yet the creatures are only equally good! (of course having all the buildings gives more growth than only the cores so it is better once you can afford it)
however in homm1-5 it was often wise to sacrifice heavily to get a higher tier creature ASAP! in homm1 you could get cyclops very fast sometimes and it would be worth it even if you took heavy costs in terms of not making other buildings... homm2-5 have many other such examples of "skipping ahead" having a cost and a reward
but now that's just gone it's just a flat out steady progression which makes it much less strategic! (blood crystals are one of the BIG BIG BIG causes of this problem) when a player has to really go out of his way to get the resources at all (proper mix of sulfur/mercury etc) then the costs can be lower in raw numbers and the power level higher... making army strength grow in spurts instead of at a linear pace as in homm6
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 06, 2011 12:04 PM |
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Quote:
however in homm1-5 it was often wise to sacrifice heavily to get a higher tier creature ASAP!
I'd say it was wise less then often. It taxed out your economy, as higher tiers were grossly expensive. Also, three stacks of lower tiers (in Homm5, even two) were better than one T7 stack. A lot of newbs thought this was a valid strategy, but it wasn't. Exceptions include: Rushing phoenix in HoMM 3 (infamous tactic), or rushing green/crystal dragon in HoMM 5 ToTe.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted July 07, 2011 05:17 PM |
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So I played around a bit in the beta. And I have to say the balance is strange.
Given the limited time that I've been playing, I've found that withing tiers, the balance is pretty good. I haven't played everything, mind. And often the beta shorts before I get anywhere substantial.
But I've found that if the battle is core vs core creatures the balance is pretty good. The Units have a specific function and they do pretty much what they are supposed to.
As much as I've experienced it, when it comes to elite vs elite, that's seems pretty evened out as well. I never got to champion.
However, as said by many, the gap that is between core and elite is way off target.
I do not know if it is the cores that are too strong or the elites are too weak. But regardless of which one is the case, the elites are not the powerfull creatures they are supposed to be. Elites die too easily and kill too little.
But, as many have said before me, there needs to be taken a good hard look at the tier-gap.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted July 07, 2011 05:51 PM |
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Quote:
The game as it is right now is a bit boring. All the creatures produce damage way smaller compared to the hip points. Battles become very long, and most of the time with no strategical value but with a hit-heal cycle which last usually for at least 5 turns.
I feel the same way. Battles just don't feel as fun as they used to. The core units just have way too many hitpoints.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 07, 2011 06:10 PM |
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Players got so used to destroying the enemy stack completely in the first turn that they can't admit the superiority of the new system?
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted July 07, 2011 06:45 PM |
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Quote:
Players got so used to destroying the enemy stack completely in the first turn that they can't admit the superiority of the new system?
Since Elodin isn't here to decry you, SOCIALIST BLASPHEME!
Anyway. I haven't actually been able to play the beta, but here is the impression that I got from the faction/ creature descriptions that were supposed to be "Balanced"...
Cores: Swarming, but not to strong. Basically, tier 1-3, with the 3's being lowest in growth.
Elites: More specialized in their roles, where the true strategy starts to come in, since they are more mobile, have more specials or just overall better than cores. Basically tier 5.
Champions: The most powerful creatures, most specials and the most sheer power. Many different usable tactics with them. Worth every penny. Basically tier 7-8.
What it seems to be...
Cores: Swarming, and you can only kill 4-7 with an attack from 2 weeks of Elites growth.
Elites: Certain creatures are decent, one or two are devastating. The others have no power and just are there to die for the rest of your creatures.
Champions: Don't get them, too expensive. Get more cores, as they work better.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 07, 2011 07:13 PM |
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Quote:
Champions: Don't get them, too expensive. Get more cores, as they work better.
That's partially true as you can get Champions as soon as the end of week one if that is your target and even though they are not as powerful as the old tier 7s, they can easily decimate the small stacks of Cores and Elites that can be found around your starting position. It's not much of a problem economy-wise either as you can get all Cores during the next week and possibly even upgrade them (usually the resources aren't sufficient to upgrade the Champion though). So by the end of the first month you can have 8-10 Champions which make quite a difference on the battlefield.
HOWEVER, this shouldn't be the case in my opinion. The Champions should be made stronger but with more prerequisites. Right now if you get the Champion after you get all Cores and Elites from the respective faction and possibly upgrade some of them, then their impact on the battle isn't very spectacular - 5-6 Champions have absolutely no chance against 3x100+ Cores and the latter are the actual participants in the battle with the other two tiers being rendered to occasional support.
As for the Elites... well, most of them don't do much indeed.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 07, 2011 07:18 PM |
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The "champion rush" costs much more than three core dwellings and does arguably less. So it's not a valid strategy imho. Unless you get week of champion and abuse Architect I.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 07, 2011 07:25 PM |
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The only thing you certainly lose is 1 week's worth of Cores. The rest is easily compensated by the fact that the Champions are excellent for creeping and thus resource gathering (haven't seen how the Kirin manages though) and with level 3 town you already have at least 2000 gold income. With this "rush" I managed to fully develop a town faster than with the standard build starting with Cores and get much more Champions.
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