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Crayfish
Known Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 08:09 PM |
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Edited by Crayfish at 20:11, 30 Jun 2011.
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Quote:
Quote:
This to me would make town development more strategic - do you buy all the core dwellings and rush, is it more worthwhile to buy the expensive core upgrade or the expensive elite dwelling, how about saving everything and putting all of your resources into an elite dwelling and its upgrade? I favour making choice a necessity rather than just handing out enough resources to buy everything.
Where's the fun in having 20% of your army each game because you can't afford the rest?
Just promotes cookie-cutter strategies. ie - small map, build this and that, rush. Big map - do this and that, turtle.
Adventure map core dwellings should be nerfed, definitively 
The fun is that you'd have to choose which 20% depending on the map, your opponent etc., making it more strategic. Right now there's one cookie cutter strategy for everyone: buy everything. It wouldn't be that straightforward anyway, turtling might limit your hero XP too much, rushing could get more resources, if you judged how fast you can save wrong then the opponent who just went for high core numbers from the start will annihilate your low number of champions. I think it'd be more about balancing resource gathering and saving, making the right judgement when timing purchases, scouting out your opponent early to counter their strategy.... It'd be quite exciting in my opinion.
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TheSwampCelt
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 30, 2011 08:22 PM |
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70 Kenshei's
I've been playing like a beast, loving the beta so far, and have been thinking about this a little.
What are y'all thoughts on the end game? In my opinion, it works out beautifully. I had 5 towns as Sanct, my brother about three as Necro, and (with amazing creature pools among towns) had an amazing end-game fight. I had 500 kappas, about 70 Kenshei. Now, elite units are more built around old tier 5 units, I believe, and I think this is important to keep in mind. Core is based around tier 3. So there isn't a huge gap, and when you have 3-4 Kenshei, yeah, they don't do much. But you can get 17 Dreamwalkers week 2 as stronghold. And yeah, they do some damage. But back to the fight! 70 Kenshei destroy any core, quite well. Thanks to the health buff, and the general ranged nerf (something else to keep in mind when your breeders don't seem to be doing much)battles are truly epic, and continue on for quite some team. Even though I had a 25% troop advantage, our battle lasted many, many turns, without feeling tedious.
When my Kenshei managed to get a triple strike on my brother's Lamasu's though, through morale and his ability, I knew I had it. But I digress: I like how the tiers interact now. Core is very strong, yes, and maybe a slight dmg boost to elite and champions would help, but really, if you're capturing towns (which with town conversion is so much freaking fun and intuitive (plus dwellings!)) you're going to have 70 Kenshei, and if they did anymore dmg they'd be OP. 30 Kirin also destroy. Gone are the days of 3-4 tier 7 units wrecking everything, yes, but maybe that's for the best. I've played Heroes since 1, and my nostalgia is strong for the old design, but having given 6 a chance, the superb design has totally won me over. Range no longer OBLITERATES everything in 1 turn, micro matters, and yes, if you get a considerable number of bases, you really feel like an emperor when you're raking in 15000 gold a turn and recruiting from five towns from one consistent pool. By the way, town portals rock so much.
TL;DR: It's really good the way it is, just give it a try, see what you think of late-game before judging.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 08:24 PM |
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Kensei is a bad example because the unit is extremely strong, with some statistical buff it might as well be Champion on its own.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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vitorsly
Known Hero
Joker!
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posted June 30, 2011 08:40 PM |
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I am not playing the BETA (NEED MORE MONEY!) but judging by what you guys are saying they should get the core creatures numbers a bit down.
I want to see my 1 champion kill 4-7 core creatures (depending if they are like the sentinel or the sister).
I would like to see core creatures relying in their stats and 1 or 2 abilities, Elite having 3-4 good abilities and champions ruling with 6 abilities in game.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted June 30, 2011 08:46 PM |
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I agree with the others. Core units have a bit too many hitpoints. 35 (or whatever it is) for praetorians is way too high for my tastes.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Kitten
Known Hero
Roar
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posted June 30, 2011 08:53 PM |
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Edited by Kitten at 20:54, 30 Jun 2011.
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How many of every unit do you get a week from a fully build town? I know it probably varies from each faction but just an answer from any faction will do. Maybe like 15 Sentinels, 16 Sisters, 14 Crossbowmen, 5 from each Elite and 3 Champions? I don't know, just guessing but a similar answer would be good.
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 09:23 PM |
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Quote:
How many of every unit do you get a week from a fully build town? I know it probably varies from each faction but just an answer from any faction will do. Maybe like 15 Sentinels, 16 Sisters, 14 Crossbowmen, 5 from each Elite and 3 Champions? I don't know, just guessing but a similar answer would be good.
It's more along the lines of 30 Pretorians, 24 Marksmen up, 22 Vestals, 14 of each upgraded elite and 2 Celestials from a fully developped Haven without external dwellings, but keep in mind that core buildings are cheap while elite ones are much more expensive and I'm not even talking about champions one Also you get a growth boost from the upgraded dwellings.
Basically here are the raw numbers :
Sentinels : growth = 9 (+6 from upgrading to Praetorians) (x2 from Superior Fortifications)
Marksmen : 7 (+5) (x2)
Sisters : 7 (+4) (x2)
Griffins/Glories/Riders : 5 (+2) (x2)
Seraphims : 1 (+1) (x2)
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Kitten
Known Hero
Roar
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posted June 30, 2011 09:50 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
How many of every unit do you get a week from a fully build town? I know it probably varies from each faction but just an answer from any faction will do. Maybe like 15 Sentinels, 16 Sisters, 14 Crossbowmen, 5 from each Elite and 3 Champions? I don't know, just guessing but a similar answer would be good.
It's more along the lines of 30 Pretorians, 24 Marksmen up, 22 Vestals, 14 of each upgraded elite and 2 Celestials from a fully developped Haven without external dwellings, but keep in mind that core buildings are cheap while elite ones are much more expensive and I'm not even talking about champions one Also you get a growth boost from the upgraded dwellings.
Basically here are the raw numbers :
Sentinels : growth = 9 (+6 from upgrading to Praetorians) (x2 from Superior Fortifications)
Marksmen : 7 (+5) (x2)
Sisters : 7 (+4) (x2)
Griffins/Glories/Riders : 5 (+2) (x2)
Seraphims : 1 (+1) (x2)
Thanks for your very detailed answer n_n I'm quite surprised, you get so many Elite creatures but so few angels. By the time you get them you already have lots of the others, and seeing that the Champions isn't even that powerful.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 30, 2011 10:47 PM |
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Quote:
I've been playing like a beast, loving the beta so far, and have been thinking about this a little.
What are y'all thoughts on the end game? In my opinion, it works out beautifully. I had 5 towns as Sanct, my brother about three as Necro, and (with amazing creature pools among towns) had an amazing end-game fight. I had 500 kappas, about 70 Kenshei. Now, elite units are more built around old tier 5 units, I believe, and I think this is important to keep in mind. Core is based around tier 3. So there isn't a huge gap, and when you have 3-4 Kenshei, yeah, they don't do much. But you can get 17 Dreamwalkers week 2 as stronghold. And yeah, they do some damage. But back to the fight! 70 Kenshei destroy any core, quite well. Thanks to the health buff, and the general ranged nerf (something else to keep in mind when your breeders don't seem to be doing much)battles are truly epic, and continue on for quite some team. Even though I had a 25% troop advantage, our battle lasted many, many turns, without feeling tedious.
When my Kenshei managed to get a triple strike on my brother's Lamasu's though, through morale and his ability, I knew I had it. But I digress: I like how the tiers interact now. Core is very strong, yes, and maybe a slight dmg boost to elite and champions would help, but really, if you're capturing towns (which with town conversion is so much freaking fun and intuitive (plus dwellings!)) you're going to have 70 Kenshei, and if they did anymore dmg they'd be OP. 30 Kirin also destroy. Gone are the days of 3-4 tier 7 units wrecking everything, yes, but maybe that's for the best. I've played Heroes since 1, and my nostalgia is strong for the old design, but having given 6 a chance, the superb design has totally won me over. Range no longer OBLITERATES everything in 1 turn, micro matters, and yes, if you get a considerable number of bases, you really feel like an emperor when you're raking in 15000 gold a turn and recruiting from five towns from one consistent pool. By the way, town portals rock so much.
TL;DR: It's really good the way it is, just give it a try, see what you think of late-game before judging.
Problem is not that Elites are not good, they are. Problem is they are not necessary. You can perfectly well manage pretty much any neutral stack with an army consisting of only cores - and then what's the point with building Elites anyway? It simply doesn't seem worth the cost to build Elites and Champions because you don't need them, and that kills the game.
And as others said, Kenshei have a pretty imbalanced ability anyway (4 attacks, also on retaliation - wtf!?).
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What will happen now?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 30, 2011 10:56 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 23:02, 30 Jun 2011.
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By the way - after I finally managed to get the game running - I decided to get to an upgraded Champion, in this case a Pit Lord. So yes, it looks pretty bad. 10 Pit Lords with the bonuses provided by a level 5 hero kill between 10 and 15 neutral Cores with a single strike and don't have any incredibly powerful abilities, except maybe Blade of Hatred which does hold some promise (and you don't need to upgrade the thing to have it). By the time you get an upgraded Champion, every sane opponent will certainly have 100+ of every Core in his army, all of them upgraded. So by the looks of it, the Cores fight while the Elites and the Champions attend to the battle.
Also - the Breeder totally sucks as a creature. It's very easy to block, has no good abilities to speak of - except if it's upgraded and you fight a spell-caster - and deals pathetic damage + has melee penalty. The worst Elite I've seen so far but it compensates with the most expensive dwelling among Inferno's Elites. 
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 11:10 PM |
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Quote:
Thanks for your very detailed answer n_n I'm quite surprised, you get so many Elite creatures but so few angels. By the time you get them you already have lots of the others, and seeing that the Champions isn't even that powerful.
One problem is the cost of elite buildings - most of them cost any combination of 16-22 resources (wood, ore and crystal). You usually end up having the choice between building all your cores and upgrading them (hence getting a growth boost) or building 1, maybe 2 elites depending on resources. Since 3-4 upgraded cores are stronger than 1 elite, the choice is rather fast. Also the fort that doubles the growth has an insane cost (10.000 gold, 20 wood and 20 ore), so do'nt expect to double your elites/champions growth very fast.
You have to take in account the external dwellings which are just insane as they add a full base city growth - a level 1 Haven dwelling would add 9 sentinels, 7 marksmen and 7 sister per week (!)
If you chose to go for cores up, by the time you get your elites, you'll be wandering around with hundreds of each core and barely a dozen of each elite. By the time you get your champions, you'll have 150-200 of each core and maybe 20-30 elites for less than 5 champions and clearly, the most dangerous of your troops will be your hordes of cores.
Quote:
By the way - after I finally managed to get the game running - I decided to get to an upgraded Champion, in this case a Pit Lord. So yes, it looks pretty bad. 10 Pit Lords with the bonuses provided by a level 5 hero kill between 10 and 15 neutral Cores with a single strike and don't have any incredibly powerful abilities, except maybe Blade of Hatred which does hold some promise (and you don't need to upgrade the thing to have it). By the time you get an upgraded Champion, every sane opponent will certainly have 100+ of every Core in his army, all of them upgraded. So by the looks of it, the Cores fight while the Elites and the Champions attend to the battle.
Also - the Breeder totally sucks as a creature. It's very easy to block, has no good abilities to speak of - except if it's upgraded and you fight a spell-caster - and deals pathetic damage + has melee penalty. The worst Elite I've seen so far but it compensates with the most expensive dwelling among Inferno's Elites.
Inferno has some serious issues. It has :
- The worst of all core units : Hell Hounds/Cerberi or maybe should we call them Paper Dogs ? Big creature = easy target, low hitpoints, laughable damage. They are the H6's peasants.
- The worst Elites ... ALL of them. Breeders are weak, Tormentors are weak and damage their allies and Juggernauts are ... well ... weak too ? They don't have the stats to survive to their Taunting Presence ...
- Pit Lords on the other hand are quite strong, but they can't make up for 4 weak/useless units
- Inferno suffers from a HUGE lack of healing abilities (yes they have regeneration, but it's far from matching the Healing spell that every other faction has access to and no ... Life Drain is a joke, I tried it.
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Crayfish
Known Hero
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posted July 01, 2011 12:31 AM |
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I basically agree about Inferno, although Lilim are very strong and demented are nice in high numbers. I never get much mileage out of gating either. Ultimate abilities are rumoured to be good but I haven't got that far yet.
Breeders are largely terrible, they do suck a lot of mana but for any other purpose they're just awful. Juggernaut would be okay with more growth, tormentor is low on HP.
It seems like elite have issues. The Kensei, Panther warrior and Radiant Glory are the only ones really worth having from what I've seen. I think if they escalated price +75%, growth +100% and stats/abilities +50% elite would be much better. Champions I'd put up +500%, +0% and +700% respectively. Probably not going to ever happen unless someone mods it but I'd really like to try that game.
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Wckey
Famous Hero
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posted July 01, 2011 12:42 AM |
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Also, haven't played in hard yet, but on the second week you have enough core creatures to make even elite creatures be afraid. That doesn't make much sense.
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Come back soon, Elvin!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted July 01, 2011 12:45 AM |
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According to the current vote results, a majority of you are satisfied 
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odium
Known Hero
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posted July 01, 2011 01:55 AM |
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In my opinion a good balance between tiers would be to have core units as strong as tier2 creatures from H5, elite units as strong as tier 5 creatures from H5 and the champion to be to equivalent (or maybe just a bit less) of the tier 7 units from H5.
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shooshima
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 01, 2011 04:24 AM |
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I'm confused...is there a way to get more creatures per week than you should have(besides dwellings) because when i play AI on normal it has double the amount of core units i have, is this normal?
jeez...core units or OP nuff said
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It's not hard to be smart, all you need is Common Sense
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admira
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 01, 2011 05:09 AM |
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Considering the cost and time (days) required to reach the Champion and Elite tier (I am not playing beta though) but I believe if Elvin feels that way, than I supposed the Elite and Champion deserve more spotlight. I don't want to limit my tactic to "Rushing with Core" in late game. I prefer a more balanced, more option and choice of creatures regardless their Tier.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted July 01, 2011 05:53 AM |
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Quote:
According to the current vote results, a majority of you are satisfied
Sons (and daughters), I am disappoint. You wish to see the guys who should be rice-paper dominate the game, while the creatures and greater beings that actually require effort and sacrifice are shoved into a hole to play poker while they die after doing little more than poking their enemy? Bah, balance is completely out of whack... H4/ 5 had (by all appearances) the best balance of the series so far...
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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PhoenixFlare
Hired Hero
Rebirth
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posted July 01, 2011 07:14 AM |
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Quote:
Kensei is a bad example because the unit is extremely strong, with some statistical buff it might as well be Champion on its own.
And not only that, if your Kenseis walk through the mist clouds left by the Sacred Kirins, they can actually attack a number of times more. I managed to get four attacks somehow during a siege for a total of sixteen (16!) strikes. Despite Four Waves mentioning that damage is reduced each strike, I somehow also hit for a consistent number most of the time plus some double-damage in between them.
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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted July 01, 2011 07:21 AM |
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I agree with Cepheus; I am for a slashing of HP in the Core Tier. They just feel too beefy at the moment, and make early game battles a little slow.
I'm all for Cores remaining useful lategame, they should, but they are just too tough right now.
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!
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