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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2011 09:10 AM |
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But in earlier game incarnations you wouldn't necessarily build up to level 7 either. Whether it's Heroes 3 or 5, playing a map that would give you an outside level 1 and level 3, playing Sylvans, or level 1 and 2 for Haven and so on would allow you to effectively deal with with large amounts of big troops as well - and Marksmen were an upgrade in H 3 as well.
So at this stage it's nothing new that creatures level 1-3 can dominate creeping and even a full game.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 13, 2011 09:18 AM |
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Quote:
So at this stage it's nothing new that creatures level 1-3 can dominate creeping and even a full game.
Only on small maps. L and XL maps, especially with underground, are won with the highest tiers - except if you are playing Heroes II-IV with Necropolis.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2011 09:48 AM |
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Yeah, but BA is no large map, even if it says "XL". It's nonsense.
By the way, the editor allows ALL map sizes AND rectangular formats. So a map could be, for example 300x200 or 231x197.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted July 13, 2011 02:01 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
The order of weakest to strongest:
Tier 1
Tier 2
Tier 3
Tier 4
Tier 5
Tier 6
Tier 7
That's a huge and incorrect generalization, even when Heroes I-III are taken into account.
Dude, come on, even though we might favour certain lower tiers than higher tiers, Heroes 1 to 5 were all from weakest to strongest in tiers 1 to 7....in hit points, attack and all stats....
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vitorsly
Known Hero
Joker!
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posted July 13, 2011 03:19 PM |
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Quote:
The difference is simple:
Heroes 1 to 5:
The order of weakest to strongest:
Tier 1
Tier 2
Tier 3
Tier 4
Tier 5
Tier 6
Tier 7
Now in H6:
Tier 3 - cores - 3 units - act in synergy with each other
Tier 5 - elites - 3 units
Tier 7 - champion - 1 unit
Actually Heroes 1 and 2 had 6 tiers.
Heroes 4 had 4 tiers each with 2 creatures.
And I don't believe in that.
In heroes 5 the red upgrade to the archer in tribes of east (forgot his name) was incredible.
And talking about tiers is anybody wondering why the hell does the H3 castle (haven) need a tier 4 dwelling to be built BEFORE the tier 3 dwelling?
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Razorphilia
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 14, 2011 05:33 AM |
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What concerns you most about external dwellings? As long as the map is balanced in the number of external dwellings for each player, they wouldn't unbalance the map. The Tier that you have a dwelling of would have a stronger stack, but this would just be something you'd have to adapt to based on the map.
The "Weeks of" are a random element to the game. There's no strategy or balance involved, except maybe adapting to cope with negative weeks.
Regarding the different levels in the past games, I can't believe you guys didn't mention Minotaurs over Manticores. Manticores are fragile and ugly and Minotaurs rock and roll all night sweet Susie.
Regarding "If cores are so strong, then you don't even need elites." Cores are strong, so that each player will build them. Then, the player that also has Elites will beat the other player. If both players get an Elite at the same time, then the player that uses their Elite more effectively will win.
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vaeledrin
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 14, 2011 07:16 AM |
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Quote:
What concerns you most about external dwellings? As long as the map is balanced in the number of external dwellings for each player, they wouldn't unbalance the map. The Tier that you have a dwelling of would have a stronger stack, but this would just be something you'd have to adapt to based on the map.
The "Weeks of" are a random element to the game. There's no strategy or balance involved, except maybe adapting to cope with negative weeks.
Regarding the different levels in the past games, I can't believe you guys didn't mention Minotaurs over Manticores. Manticores are fragile and ugly and Minotaurs rock and roll all night sweet Susie.
Regarding "If cores are so strong, then you don't even need elites." Cores are strong, so that each player will build them. Then, the player that also has Elites will beat the other player. If both players get an Elite at the same time, then the player that uses their Elite more effectively will win.
External dwellings, for me at least, rail road your strategy a little too much considering the already existing material constraints. That's why I dislike them in their current state. Well, unless maps were to contain one of each tier in the starting area etc.
As for the cores thing, the main issue is really that you have a finite amount of cash. Upgrading your cores is probably better than getting elites and therefore, you will never reach elites unless you are ahead. If you're ahead , chances are the game is already over.
____________
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted July 14, 2011 08:29 AM |
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Quote:
And talking about tiers is anybody wondering why the hell does the H3 castle (haven) need a tier 4 dwelling to be built BEFORE the tier 3 dwelling?
The griffin was tier 3 and the swordsman was tier 4 and you had to build the griffin first...so not sure what you're saying here. In H5, they swopped them around....griffins became tier 4 but you could build either one earlier than the other....
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Razorphilia
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 14, 2011 08:35 AM |
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I also remember having to build the Level 4 creature before building the Level 3 creature. I believe you built the barracks and then built the Griffin place on top of it, meaning the Level 3 creature required the Level 4 creature.
Town diversity is in general a good thing though.
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 14, 2011 08:37 AM |
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Yes, I confirm. You had to build swordsmen (lvl 4) in order to build griffins (lvl 3)
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whiterider
Known Hero
death walks with me
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posted July 14, 2011 08:42 AM |
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Quote:
It's nothing like that and actually never was. More Defense is not equal to more HP but to the static modifier which is taken into account when the given creature is attacked by another one which has X Attack (which can be higher or lower than the said creature's Defense) so the damage dealt can be calculated. There was no reduction whatsoever against spells until Heroes V - except for the various types of Golems - and they dealt their "maximum" damage every time. In Heroes VI every creature has Magic Defense which reduces the damage against all kinds of attacks which are labeled as "Magic" and the Champions usually perform almost as well as an Iron Golem in this regard. Add the overall impotence of all direct-damage spells cast by the hero and you have a very sad picture.
Edit: I'd delete bankarbunkaren's spam posy by the way, it messes the whole page.
I am sorry to make a turn in this direction again, but the defense value was always a HP modifier, less damage is the same as more HP. Before 10 years I had been in contact with one of the NWC member crew who was working programming the sequences and formulas for the game. Initially all creatures (for all games starting from H1 to H4) had only HP and Damage (on every early stage of a game creation) and than they were altered with Attack and Defense because of the spells - in this way you have creatures with not so big HP span and you can control very easily the spell power. I am not speaking about damage reduction, resistances or something else - I am speaking about a way to balance the might and the magic damage so they are in certain ration between each other. According this man H4 had the best way of balancing formula (it is just another question if this has been done because of dead-lines and other issues they had). You can take any creature from H4 multiply its HP by its defense value divide by 10 and you will see the base HP, you can consider the growth as well - and you will see that 90% of the creatures from one level are almost equal in numbers (the same you can do with damage and attack value).
But if the creatures have only damage and HP it is impossible to balance the spell damage because you will have huge gap between low and high level creautres and either the spell will be too powerful for low levels and do normal damage for high levels or normal damage on low level and tiny damage on champion units.
The same was achieved with plus 5% and minus 2.5% in H3 and H5 if I am not mistaking.
I dont have the time to experiment with H6 system and at the moment I am not very clear about the formulas (yes we have the formula but sometimes it doesnt reflect the real situation for some reason).
One of the reasons there is almost no difference between cores, elites and champion units is because there is no (old) attack value and the attack at the moment is simply the damage span, making the cores do significantly more damage than a weekly growth of elites, lets say.
Could some one tell us how the hero affects damage and defense % for the creatures (not via skills which is clear but with her/his own attack and defense parameters)
One more idea - if you want to balance races with healing and those without here are simple things you can do:
Cerberus as Guard of Hell (guards the souls from escaping) can do double damage only to the number of top creatures resurrected in battle.
Some other Inferno creature (Breeder) can block for one turn the healing abilities of healers.
Some Orc creature can use some kind of a poison (Harpy lets say) which blocks the target from healing for one turn (or only half healing applies, it will not affect divine skills like the Angels resurrecting skill)
Some dark spell can block for 3-5 turns the healing on the battlefield...
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vaeledrin
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 14, 2011 08:21 PM |
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One dark spell already does I think!
And Implosion blocks healing too.
But yeah, good ideas etc.
____________
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted July 15, 2011 08:39 AM |
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Purge and Terror seem like good darkness spells to combat healing too....
The Hero's Attack and Defense affect all his troops with a Modifier that gets multiplied with the stack's damage or stack's damage absorption.
The formulas are pretty well explained (attack is exponential, but defense plateau's as you get nearer to 100%) but as you say, in game, can't quite work it out.
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conqr
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 15, 2011 03:32 PM |
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Edited by conqr at 15:37, 15 Jul 2011.
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With supreme fortification the supposed growth of the enraged cyclops is 4 or 5? Description suggest 5 but i always get 4. (Same with every other stronghold creature, i can only get one less than what it is 'supposed to' be.)
Another interesting thing is, that despite of the 'water flows freely' ability of the sacred kirin, it is effected by earth and sky.. making the panther warrior the first to act. (And making the cyclops act second with inner fire on it mighty slamming the sh1t out of the poor sanctuary army.. : p )
Quote:
When it comes to creeping the Pit Fiend is unmatched, I agree. This is perhaps the only Champion which can handle large numbers of neutral Cores and Elites on its own. Against a human though its most dangerous skill - Hateful Retaliation - seems to be more difficult to use. I tried it against myself (can't find anybody for hotseat at this point) and mainly used creatures which can't be retaliated against and archers against the Pit Fiends/Lords and the latter never really used their full potential. Blade of Hatred could be nasty as well but it could also backfire. On the other hand using the Cyclops against a human is much easier. Mighty Slam is a AoE attack without retaliation - which at the moment seems to easy to abuse, except if its unlimited usage isn't actually a bug - and the upgraded Cyclops can also shoot. Impervious to Pain keeps it dangerous during each round (except if the stack is really small) and perfect for blocking important enemy stacks. The Pit Fiend still could be quite a pest but it seems a bit easier to defend against it than against the Cyclops.
Contrary to my original belief there might be no way to force a human player to attack the pits (when it could retaliate), so against factions that has a lot of no-retal the usefulness of the pits is indeed much smaller.
Pit fiend is most likely still uncontested for being the best non upgraded champion at creeping, enraged cyclops is not too far from pit lord though (but needs more mana).
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Kitten
Known Hero
Roar
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posted July 15, 2011 03:55 PM |
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Quote:
With supreme fortification the supposed growth of the enraged cyclops is 4 or 5? Description suggest 5 but i always get 4. (Same with every other stronghold creature, i can only get one less than what it is 'supposed to' be.)
Another interesting thing is, that despite of the 'water flows freely' ability of the sacred kirin, it is effected by earth and sky.. making the panther warrior the first to act. (And making the cyclops act second with inner fire on it mighty slamming the sh1t out of the poor sanctuary army.. : p )
Quote:
When it comes to creeping the Pit Fiend is unmatched, I agree. This is perhaps the only Champion which can handle large numbers of neutral Cores and Elites on its own. Against a human though its most dangerous skill - Hateful Retaliation - seems to be more difficult to use. I tried it against myself (can't find anybody for hotseat at this point) and mainly used creatures which can't be retaliated against and archers against the Pit Fiends/Lords and the latter never really used their full potential. Blade of Hatred could be nasty as well but it could also backfire. On the other hand using the Cyclops against a human is much easier. Mighty Slam is a AoE attack without retaliation - which at the moment seems to easy to abuse, except if its unlimited usage isn't actually a bug - and the upgraded Cyclops can also shoot. Impervious to Pain keeps it dangerous during each round (except if the stack is really small) and perfect for blocking important enemy stacks. The Pit Fiend still could be quite a pest but it seems a bit easier to defend against it than against the Cyclops.
Contrary to my original belief there might be no way to force a human player to attack the pits (when it could retaliate), so against factions that has a lot of no-retal the usefulness of the pits is indeed much smaller.
Pit fiend is most likely still uncontested for being the best non upgraded champion at creeping, enraged cyclops is not too far from pit lord though (but needs more mana).
Everything that has damaged the Pit Lord will take damage when it retaliates. Even shooters that has shot it will be affected.
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conqr
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 15, 2011 04:40 PM |
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Edited by conqr at 16:42, 15 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
Everything that has damaged the Pit Lord will take damage when it retaliates. Even shooters that has shot it will be affected.
That is absolutely true, our main concern however is that, certain factions have enough no-retaliation creatures that a player can attack the pit-lords with only them making hateful retaliation 'obsolate'.
Actually stronghold can handle pit lords without too much hassle (it might be the only one, that can do it so easily though.)
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whiterider
Known Hero
death walks with me
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posted July 15, 2011 04:56 PM |
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but isnt that part of the balance?
We have 5 races and none is better than the other:
lilim is supreme over all other but not undead
pit lord smashes everyone except stronghold
upg. ghosts prevents everyone from healing but suffers add. Light damage from healers etc
after the first shock of the game I actually started to enjoy it, the only thing I miss are the special attacks like in kings bounty - there is a small variety of skills and the devs could give some pure damage skills once per battle or recharbale for several turns to many creatures, skills that do only damage not other effects (only in a case that programming new effects is too time demanding for them). Like once per battle double damage for some of the orcs, or some stun skill for harpies, or make the special shot of upg, marksman an activated ability so you will not kill your army (I really hate that kind of stupid pretend to be more tactical skills), or some more support stats increasing or spell like abilities for elites. Truly the elites need more support skills
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Kitten
Known Hero
Roar
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posted July 15, 2011 05:14 PM |
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Edited by Kitten at 17:15, 15 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
Quote:
Everything that has damaged the Pit Lord will take damage when it retaliates. Even shooters that has shot it will be affected.
That is absolutely true, our main concern however is that, certain factions have enough no-retaliation creatures that a player can attack the pit-lords with only them making hateful retaliation 'obsolate'.
Actually stronghold can handle pit lords without too much hassle (it might be the only one, that can do it so easily though.)
Yeah it's a great way to approach the Pit Lords =) But their melee makes your units berserk/frenzy and if "unlucky" said unit might hit the Pit Lord triggering its revenge retaliate thingy xD
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conqr
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 15, 2011 05:47 PM |
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Edited by conqr at 18:06, 15 Jul 2011.
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But their melee makes your units berserk/frenzy and if "unlucky" said unit might hit the Pit Lord triggering its revenge retaliate thingy
It would add a lot of depth to the use of pits if this would be possilbe, but im afraid theres no retaliation to frenzied stacks. And since the stack the pit lord attacked never chooses the pit lord when there are other stacks nearby (afaik), it might not be 'imbalanced'.
Quote:
but isnt that part of the balance?
Because of the amount of things that are broken right now, its really hard to tell.
Quote:
after the first shock of the game I actually started to enjoy it
The cerberus might have only two heads, but the game has a lot of really nice ideas and gameplay elements in it (the potential is surely there)
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conqr
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 15, 2011 09:09 PM |
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Edited by conqr at 21:32, 15 Jul 2011.
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I tried a lot of combinations with trail of mist, and there are many remarkable ones. I will share on of the best i found (its not the infinite move with kirin : d ). (Btw, heroes 6 leaves a really wide open space for 'crazy' strats.. it basically depends on your creativity.. : )
Coral priestess or yuki-onna + 4 stacks of kirin + high moral + archery 2
Just send all the kirins forward as much as possible (place them so they can go as far as they can, also if needed cast rush on your shooter stack when its the turn of the last kirin). Now you have roughly 50 tile worth of mist. If coral/yuki gets moral shoot with it. If it doesn't just go one step on the mist (Repeat this until you have mist left).
While seeging you can have about 60 steps of mist. With 19-20 moral (nothing uncommon) you will have 12-13 actions with your shooters. With archery 2 the last shot will be 10 times more powerful than the first. I would suggest going for high spellpower with the hero. (Tested it in a real game)
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