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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted June 30, 2011 02:06 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
In all previous Heroes games, core units served no purpose as the game progressed
No purpose?
What about Skeleton resurrection and the Familiar's mana leech?
So you proove me wrong by saying 2/24 cores had some use ? Let's be honest for a second, when playing a long game (which is the only type I myself enjoy playing), none of us didn't really have use for 3 if not even 4 ties of creatures, which made them useless.
I didn't like that part, my personal opinion only though
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 30, 2011 02:10 PM |
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The slogan that the first tiers were not useful before is just a parrotry. Heroes V more or less fixed that by supplying them with useful skill which kept them in line even after several months.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 02:12 PM |
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Quote:
when playing a long game (which is the only type I myself enjoy playing), none of us didn't really have use for 3 if not even 4 ties of creatures, which made them useless.
You must be joking, at least when it comes to HoMMV. Tier 1 often was a failure, true, and there were many slow, useless walkers in tier 2, but apart from that, a lot of factions' power came from there. See Arcane archers (tier 3), or trained marksmen/crossbowmen (tier 2), or centaurs (tier 2), or skeleton warriors en masse (tier 1).
ALso, many of low tiers came with very useful support skills like big shield of squires.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 30, 2011 02:13 PM |
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Quote:
The slogan that the first tiers were not useful before is just a parrotry. Heroes V more or less fixed that by supplying them with useful skill which kept them in line even after several months.
+1
H5 lower tiers kicked serious @ss, especially with battle frenzy/vitality.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 02:14 PM |
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Quote:
The slogan that the first tiers were not useful before is just a parrotry. Heroes V more or less fixed that by supplying them with useful skill which kept them in line even after several months.
+2 
Wind dancers kick serious butt, too.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted June 30, 2011 02:14 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 14:14, 30 Jun 2011.
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Quote:
So you proove me wrong by saying 2/24 cores had some use?
I'm sorry, I don't intend to prove anything.
Quote:
none of us
Some of us.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 30, 2011 02:25 PM |
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Anyways we are getting away from the subject at hand. First of all it is perfectly possible to have strong champions while still keeping core units useful. If anything H6 has made sure of that with their excellent abilities. Secondly when I say strong champions I do not mean like this or this 
Forget growth, suppose that the growth is fixed and all you have to worry about is the balance between core, elite and champion. Right now a sizable amount of core can thrash champions and elites while the latter cannot do enough damage on them. They just have plenty of staying power and that is a fact.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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seddy
Known Hero
Spinner of delicious cupcakes
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posted June 30, 2011 02:58 PM |
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I agree with the general flow of the thread. Core units own the game.
I do more damage with them, I can sustain them easily, I get more and more of them...
Furies (upgraded harpies) for example, own both champions and elites. In previous games, they were fragile to compensate for their high damage output, mobility and no retaliation. But no more.
I thought that Heroes 5 was fairly balanced, tier-wise. Battle frenzy, high growth and unique abilities enabled even lower-tiers to be useful. Dryads healed, peasants could gain gold or be upgraded to pack a punch with assault, skeletons are obviously good, goblins were good food and powered anger of the horde/used traps, gremlins were fairly good but could also repair lots of golems, shieldguards lasted FOREVER, familiars ruined spellcasting for the enemy and made it easy for you in addition to being a fast and fairly damaging unit.
Tier 2 had centaurs, marksmen, mr +2 defense/square passed, crippling shots from skirmisher, a leaping demon (that was super bad before but with the upgrade could kill quite well) and some tanky, otherwise a bit useless units. Ah well, won't go on forever.
But core are too powerful, grow too fast and slay elites/champs without serious casualties, especially with all the healing/resurrection available.
Jaguar warrior? 2 growth! 
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted June 30, 2011 03:12 PM |
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I voted Other Thoughts because my muffin is too distracting and delicious.
EDIT: Muffin is now in my belly.
As to the core units, I think they are OK. I haven't seen a whole lot of them because I haven't played multiplayer yet.
As to Heroes 5, I thought all tiers had their uses and the vast majority of the time including level 1 and level 2 units in the game. Even lowly peasants could be useful en mass.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 30, 2011 03:13 PM |
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When you build a dwelling you only get a part of the base growth. Jagwar growth is 3 (5 if you build citadel - since castle is too expensive to build anytime soon ) and mauler growth is 5(7 with citadel). If you upgrade them you get another +3.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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seddy
Known Hero
Spinner of delicious cupcakes
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posted June 30, 2011 03:16 PM |
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Edited by seddy at 15:16, 30 Jun 2011.
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Do you really get +3 even for elites in growth when upgrading? (I can't remember and the game isn't very responsive atm)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 30, 2011 03:25 PM |
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Champion upg gives +1, elite upg gives +2 and core upg ranging between +3 and +6 according to the unit's strength and growth.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 03:43 PM |
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I completly agree. I hate that 10 Breeders kill like 1 Skeleton with their attack...
I have spent a couple of hours doing some calculations of how I think creatures should kill each other. My original plan/formula looked like this:
100 Cores-> Kills 10 Elites.
10 Elites -> Kill 10 Cores.
1 Champion -> Kills 5 Cores.
That was the plan I started with. In the end, after a lot of mathemtical calculations etc, the end result turned out to be:
100 Cores-> Kills 32 Cores/Kills 10 Elites/Kills 2 Champions.
10 Elites -> Kill 10 Cores/Kills 3.13 Elites/Kills 63% of Champion's health.
1 Champion -> Kills 5 Cores/Kills 1.54 Elites/Kills 0.31% of Champion's health
The new stats for this looks like this and this would also speed up the game just a little bit since many people are annoyed by that. For shooters, Health decreases with 25% and for tanks it increases with 25%. Damage incrases by 25% for shooters and decreases by 25% for tanks.
Core
Average Dmg: 8. (-2 for tanks/+2 for shooters)
Average Hp: 25. (-6 for shooters/+6 for tanks)
Elite
Average Dmg: 25. (-6 for tanks/+6 for shooters)
Average Hp: 80. (-20 for shooters/+20 for tanks)
Champion
Average Dmg: 125. (-30 for tanks/+30 for shooters)
Average: Hp: 400. (-50 for shooters/+50 for tanks)
My calculations
I started with using Elvins "average damage/health" numbers to see how creatures would kill each other without defense. Then, I calculated new numbers that would fit with my suggestion.
Old Stats
* 100 Core VS 10 Elite: 100 Cores = 500/80 = 6.25 - 800/80 = 10. New Core dmg = 8.
* 10 Elite VS 100 Core: 10 Elites = 170/25 = 6,8. - 250/25 = 10. New Elite dmg = 25.
*1 Champion VS 100 Core: 1 Champion = 45/25 = 1.8. - 125/25 = 5. New champion damage = 125.
New Stats
* 100 Core VS 100 Core: 100 Cores = 800/25 = 32. Core Health = 25.
* 100 Core VS 10 Elite: 100 Cores = 800/80 = 10. Elite Health = 80.
* 100 Core VS 1 Champion: 100 Cores = 800/250 = 3.4 - 800/400 = 2.0 Champion Health = 400.
* 10 Elite VS 100 Core: 10 Elites = 250/25 = 10.
* 10 Elite VS 10 Elite: 10 Elites = 250/80 = 3.13
* 10 Elite VS 1 Champion: 1 Champion = 250/400 = 0.37
*1 Champion VS 100 Core: 1 Champion = 125/25 = 5. Champion damage = 125.
*1 Champion VS 10 Elite: 1 Champion = 125/800 = 1.56
*1 Champion VS 1 Champion: 1 Champion = 125/400 = 0,31.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 30, 2011 03:53 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 15:56, 30 Jun 2011.
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Champions have roughly 50% reduction and elites 20-25%, it would be a little more complex to get actual dmg/hp numbers that way. Not bad thinking though your champions sound a little insane
Actually these tiers lack.. symmetry. In that each tier gets progressively stronger than the next one.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted June 30, 2011 04:32 PM |
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Do you mean the old 1-7th level tier or the Core/Elite/Champion tier?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 04:54 PM |
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yeah, but go easy on those rules xerox, some creativity isn't bad either. for example, tanks can very well have high health and high damage but low speed (golems) or high health and high speed (H5 gargoyle)...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 30, 2011 05:01 PM |
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Cores have way too much health for my liking. When 17 Elites guided by a hero kill only 3 Cores, not guided by a hero, in a single blow, something is way off.
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What will happen now?
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itwasntme
Hired Hero
#tigerblood
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posted June 30, 2011 05:17 PM |
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I like how the cores have huge numbers, and you really rely on them as the main part of your army. I do think Elites and Champions are underwhelming with respect to the core creatures though. The elites SHOULD be able to make a huge, but specialized impact, and champions should have better abilities all around.
A good example of what elites should be like is the radiant glories for haven. A key blind spell can prevent a charging creature from hitting you first round, strike and return + no retaliation makes them seem special, and different from the cores. They don't do super strong damage but the abilities make up for it.
The cores should have less health overall, I think the damage is ok. Elites and champions need some buffs.
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Mitzah
Promising
Supreme Hero
of the Horadrim
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posted June 30, 2011 06:36 PM |
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Edited by Mitzah at 18:37, 30 Jun 2011.
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Cores have a bit too many HP (making artifacts which give +1 or +2 HP almost useless now) and the dwellings' growth (the adventure map ones) rate is too high.
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| The HoMM Channel |
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2011 07:10 PM |
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Quote:
Cores have a bit too many HP (making artifacts which give +1 or +2 HP almost useless now) and the dwellings' growth (the adventure map ones) rate is too high.
Aye, the dwellings have the same growth as a basic city.
1. Either they should halve the growth and keep all creatures in
2. Or they should only allow dwellings to increase the growth for 1 creature (random) for ~75% of a base city growth
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This thread is pages long: 
