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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 05, 2013 08:44 PM |
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"Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins." - 1. Peter 4:8
Hm the last day for "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold." - Matthew 24:12
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 05, 2013 08:51 PM |
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Hell cannot exist.
Imagine a mother leading a fine life going to heaven.
Her daughter, though, is raped, has an abortion and becomes a dyke afterwards, never repenting what SHE did - going straight to hell.
Can you imagine her mother being happy in heaven with that knowledge? For all bloody eternity? And if she was, what kind of strange brainwashing would have had to happen for her to simply accept or forget her daughter suffering for all eternity unfathomable pain in hell?
So forget hell. Either it's not existing, or, if it indeed does, you are bound for a really sucky afterlife, one way or another and no matter what.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 05, 2013 09:06 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:22, 05 Apr 2013.
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The answer to your question is yes according to Christianity and Islam, non-believers go to Hell no matter what. (Thus the Gandhi in hell irony in South Park for example). For Jews Hell don't exactly exist like it does in the others, but cahannam in Arabic or cehennem in Turkish (meaning hell) comes from Gehenna (also an Inferno town in H3 ) which is Hebrew so I am not clear in details. I'd really like a Jewish person to enlighten me on that one.
Religion in our age has nothing to do with moral higher ground. Just check prisons, it's full of religious people as well as non-religious. They don't have higher ground in the first place to lose anyway.
And I think hell is an incredibly childish idea to even start a discussion.
Edit:Sorry Gehenna is the Greek version, the Hebrew original for hell is Ge Hinnom meaning the valley of Hinnom, yes, it is an actual valley in the beginning. If you can find someone to translate I advise reading this, it's the whole story of how the concept of hell evolved:Click
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted April 05, 2013 09:20 PM |
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Quote:
Hell cannot exist.
It depends on the definition of "hell".
Quote:
Imagine a mother leading a fine life going to heaven.
I don't feel myself qualified to say where the mother will go.
As easy as imagining her go to heaven,I can imagine her to go many other good places.
Quote:
Her daughter, though, is raped, has an abortion and becomes a dyke afterwards, never repenting what SHE did - going straight to hell.
Can you imagine her mother being happy in heaven with that knowledge? For all bloody eternity? And if she was, what kind of strange brainwashing would have had to happen for her to simply accept or forget her daughter suffering for all eternity unfathomable pain in hell?
I let others answer that.Just my two cents-there is a difference between being happy,accepting and forgetting the fate of her daughter.(I think eternity is very vage to be a matter of discussion)
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So forget hell. Either it's not existing, or, if it indeed does, you are bound for a really sucky afterlife, one way or another and no matter what.
Good idea to forget hell.
For the afterlife my point of view-it may really be the same as the life here(just an idea).
____________
"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 05, 2013 09:44 PM |
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Quote:
I thought that you can deduce from the quote I provided that love is greater than faith/religion.
So no reason said man to go to hell.
That does not help me much. Is that what you quoted straight from the bible or any other religious text?
@At others
Whether Hell exists or not is not in question here.
I just wanted an affirmation.
The Requisite for someone to go to heaven is to believe no matter what you did in your life. And no, one can not equate cheating or killing with disbelief in god.
As for the moral highground i mentioned. All theists believe that without their religious textbook, one cannot be moral or atheists are immoral because they dont know where to get their moral from.
Everytime I here this from people,it manages to piss me off.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 05, 2013 09:51 PM |
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Heaven and hell are places that are defined in Christian religion (and others as well). Hell is a place of eternal pain, while heaven is a place of eternal bliss.
So, ask a mother that WOULD go to heaven, that is, a really NICE person - could there be any bliss with the knowledge of beloved people, CHILDREN, suffering eternally in hell for really minor stuff, mainly for not repenting the stuff? Not with her memory and personality intact.
However, without that one intact - where is the CONTINUITY OF PERSONALITY? I mean, if I can't remember who I was, what I liked, who I loved and so on - I'm a different person for all purposes, right?
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 05, 2013 09:51 PM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 05, 2013 10:04 PM |
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Who are you objecting to JJ?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 05, 2013 10:24 PM |
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2013 12:48 AM |
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JJ:
I think the idea is that when you go to Heaven, you are closer to God and thus have a better understanding of His justice. And so you realize that children suffering in Hell is just - they didn't accept Jesus Christ as their savior, and that's the worst thing you can do, worse than murder.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 06, 2013 01:17 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 01:19, 06 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
JJ:
I think the idea is that when you go to Heaven, you are closer to God and thus have a better understanding of His justice. And so you realize that children suffering in Hell is just - they didn't accept Jesus Christ as their savior, and that's the worst thing you can do, worse than murder.
Aha. Makes sense.
This is the argument that bombs christianity to bits much like apostasy boms islam to bits.
So no matter how good a human can be, not accepting jesus equals eternity in hell. This is just amaizing and somehow being nearer to god makes people apathetic about their loved ones.
Aha. I wonder than how these people can even assert that they have a moral highground...
I am beginning to understand. There is simply no reasoning with these people. I mean really. Not even talking like a normal human being can make them understand another point of view.
Still, this is better because its just a belief compared to "KILL THE INFIDEL WHEREVER YOU SEE ONE!!!!" in islam.
Its really a sad state of affairs when 2 to 2.5 billion people billion
are Muslims and Christians. Its depressing really...
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted April 06, 2013 01:49 AM |
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Quote:
Its really a sad state of affairs when 2 to 2.5 billion people billion
are Muslims and Christians. Its depressing really...
Jokes on them when none of them ends up in Valhalla.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 06, 2013 01:58 AM |
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Israel!
But he disdained to lay hands on Mordecai alone, for they had told him who the people of Mordecai were; therefore Haman sought to destroy all the Jews, the people of Mordecai, who were throughout the whole kingdom of Ahasuerus. Then Mordecai recorded these events, and he sent letters to all the Jews who were in all the provinces of King Ahasuerus, both near and far, - Esther
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 06, 2013 07:15 AM |
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Quote:
Still, this is better because its just a belief compared to "KILL THE INFIDEL WHEREVER YOU SEE ONE!!!!" in islam.
Don't exaggerate. What it says is this:
(Here, it is translated as polytheist instead of infidel which is closer the the original word musrik. Someone who thinks anything is equal in value with God or there is more than one God)
9.3
And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.
9.4
Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
9.5
And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
9.6
And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
Disinformation will not get you anywhere. If it was a Muslim you were arguing with, he'd say you don't even know what you're talking against and he'd be right.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 06, 2013 08:00 AM |
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Muhammad just copied heavily from Judaism and Christianity.
Big thumb up for ghostie 
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted April 06, 2013 09:30 AM |
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@Seraphim,my quote is from the bible itself,which means the holy book defines faith(we know faith and religion are synonims,right?) as something NOT ABSOLUTE AND EVEN INFERIOR to love.
Quote:
Heaven and hell are places that are defined in Christian religion (and others as well). Hell is a place of eternal pain, while heaven is a place of eternal bliss.
So heaven and hell are defined in other sources as well,and it's interesting for me why do you think we must stick to the christian classic definition when discussing?
And you seem to love the word "eternity",but what does it mean for you and is it the core of discussion?
Quote:
So, ask a mother that WOULD go to heaven, that is, a really NICE person - could there be any bliss with the knowledge of beloved people, CHILDREN, suffering eternally in hell for really minor stuff, mainly for not repenting the stuff? Not with her memory and personality intact.
Well,we could just step back and look at life on earth from an role play prespective.Imagine in this life we are souls that play as many roles you can think of and when we die,we in fact become equal and understand that "mother" and "daughter" were just roles.So from this point of view,your question is incorrect in the parts of the connection between them here and there.
One contra question from me-when a mother bury her daugther,is the mother capable(with her memory and personality intact)to do anything to her daughter anymore except paying respect to her bones and paying respect to the memory of her?
And if your answer is "not capable",how can you be sure that the mother in heaven can do more?
Quote:
However, without that one intact - where is the CONTINUITY OF PERSONALITY? I mean, if I can't remember who I was, what I liked, who I loved and so on - I'm a different person for all purposes, right?
Very interesting question,I might write it down and answer it later,if you don't mind.
____________
"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 06, 2013 09:51 AM |
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Quote:
Muhammad just copied heavily from Judaism and Christianity.
That's like saying Temple of The Doom copied heavily from Raiders of The Lost Ark. They are sequels sharing the same mythological pool. According to muslims, Judaism and Christianity is altered (changed over time) Islam anyway. There is a reason they are called the Abrahamic religions.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 06, 2013 11:07 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 11:39, 06 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
Hell cannot exist.
Imagine a mother leading a fine life going to heaven.
Her daughter, though, is raped, has an abortion and becomes a dyke afterwards, never repenting what SHE did - going straight to hell.
Can you imagine her mother being happy in heaven with that knowledge? For all bloody eternity? And if she was, what kind of strange brainwashing would have had to happen for her to simply accept or forget her daughter suffering for all eternity unfathomable pain in hell?
So forget hell. Either it's not existing, or, if it indeed does, you are bound for a really sucky afterlife, one way or another and no matter what.
Poppycock.
Do you think that people who lose loved ones in this life go through life completely miserable? Nah, they grieve and get over it. You must have lived a really sheltered life.
When a person dies and goes to be with Christ he sees Christ as he is and is transformed into a morally perfect being like Christ. He will recognize that everyone made their choice and that everyone is responsible for their own destiny. People in heaven won't have "survivor's guilt."
Weeping endures but for a moment but we will dwell in the the joy of the Lord forever. Whatever sorrows we had about foolish decisions other made will be forgotten and left behind with the old life.
The Bible says the dead are forgotten by the living. I believe the ultimate fulfillment of that will be the spiritually dead in hell being forgotten by the "sons and daughters of God" as we move on to a "new heaven and a new earth." Perhaps that will be the most torment of all in hell. To know everyone who ever gave a **** about you has now forgotten you.
Quote:
Revelation 21
King James Version (KJV)
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and snowmongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 06, 2013 11:34 AM |
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Good to know the sorcerers will burn too, those dark magic casting snowes!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2013 12:44 PM |
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@ master_learn
I don't really see your point. A religion is defined by its scriptures, and words have a definition and a meaning as well. Christian religion postulates an eternal undying soul, and there is nothing to debate about what that means. Another concept is PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY - God or Christ is judging a person when they die, and that makes sense only when the soul, that is, the surviving part of a person contains complete personality and memory, otherwise judging will make no sense: if you don't kmnow where you are, where you were and what you did, your personality doesn't exist anymore and so you can't be held personally accountable.
So I don't see your point there.
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Poppycock.
Do you think that people who lose loved ones in this life go through life completely miserable? Nah, they grieve and get over it. You must have lived a really sheltered life.
No, I don't think, that a person who lose loved ones in this life go through life completely miserable. I think, they grieve, and given time will cope - still: THEY DO NOT FORGET THEM, and they will STILL grieve once in a while.
And since we are at poppycock - Quote:
When a person dies and goes to be with Christ he sees Christ as he is and is transformed into a morally perfect being like Christ. He will recognize that everyone made their choice and that everyone is responsible for their own destiny. People in heaven won't have "survivor's guilt."
Jesus Christ, what kind of a human are you? A morally perfect being like Christ will suddenly lose interest in the fate of their children? That is supposed to be "morally perfect"? And then you dare to compare the grieve for a lost child with "survivor's guilt"?
What you are describing is a brainwash - it sounds like being hooked on heroin, because that's what heroin does: taking away the emotional pain and giving you INDIFFERENCE.
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Whatever sorrows we had about foolish decisions other made will be forgotten and left behind with the old life.
Right, yet more heavenly heroin - or are we now talking The Matrix? We are talking about this great thing called LOVE, remember? You really think, just because someone erred once, we should forget that we loved them, birthed them even... FORCED to forget... Would you even WANT that?
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The Bible says the dead are forgotten by the living.
This is either a midunderstanding or simply wrong. I don't know where the Bible is supposed to say something like that, and it seems that everyone and especially Christians strive hard NOT to forget the dead, especially beloved ones. No mother will ever forget a dead child. NONE.
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I believe the ultimate fulfillment of that will be the spiritually dead in hell being forgotten by the "sons and daughters of God" as we move on to a "new heaven and a new earth." Perhaps that will be the most torment of all in hell. To know everyone who ever gave a **** about you has now forgotten you.
I knew punishment was important for you, but I didn't know it was the most important thing of all, if it even is great, when the good ones being brainwashed to forget the bad ones just to increase their eternal suffering. What a miserable, petty and negative vision.
I've always been thinking it might be a good idea, if there was something like an afterlife, to confront everyone with the pain they caused. Making them feel it themselves. Purgatory, if you want to: being confronted with all the pain you caused, suffering it yourself and having to account for it not before god, but before those you wronged; having to earn their forgiveness in the face of your heightened awareness of what you actually did, and suffering through it yourself, begging forgiveness because you are able to feel sorry for them then, getting forgiveness thereby from those you wronged, being cleansed and becoming part of the blissful community of souls where every soul is part of a spritual network and everyone is linked with everyone else.
Naturally, there's even room for hell here: imagine a person that simply cannot face all the pain caused. Imagine a guy like Hitler dying and being confronted with all those souls that suffered because of him, wailing at him, telling him what he did, showing him what he did, making him feel what he did. He might not be able to endure that, be not prepared to face that long period of suffering necessary until the millions have all confronted him and he has suffered everything he caused, gotten forgiveness from everyone.
That's where hell would come into play. He'd be able to chose solitude. Loneliness apart from the spiritual network of souls. A mind drifting through nothing having only himself and his memories...
The thing is, I'm only a simple human, yet I find THIS vision of eternity, heaven, hell, judgement and so on VASTLY superior to your "poppycock" of a stone age god wielding an axe and throwing everyone into either the torture of eternal pain and memory or the bliss of eternal forgetfulness and indifference which no one in their right mind would want in the first place except a junkie. And if *I* am able to come up with what would look infinitely better than this stone age justice nonsense of the Bible, I'm QUITE certain - DEAD certain, in fact - that a "morally superior" deity with only a modicum of the power the Christian god is supposed to have, could come up with something WAY, WAY better than the crap that you are not tiring to describe.
Of course it's your decision what you chose to believe and whether you want to throw reason, love, humanity and everything outta the window in order to prostrate before a misogynic, homophobe, bloodthirsty, vindictive, vain monster - but don't try to sell this as something worthwhile to believe in.
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