|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
posted April 07, 2013 07:01 PM |
|
|
@JJ
Quote:
Quote:
JJ:
Hell cannot exist.
Imagine a mother leading a fine life going to heaven.
Her daughter, though, is raped, has an abortion and becomes a dyke afterwards, never repenting what SHE did - going straight to hell.
Can you imagine her mother being happy in heaven with that knowledge? For all bloody eternity? And if she was, what kind of strange brainwashing would have had to happen for her to simply accept or forget her daughter suffering for all eternity unfathomable pain in hell?
So forget hell. Either it's not existing, or, if it indeed does, you are bound for a really sucky afterlife, one way or another and no matter what.
Quote:
Elodin: Do you think that people who lose loved ones in this life go through life completely miserable? Nah, they grieve and get over it. You must have lived a really sheltered life.
When a person dies and goes to be with Christ he sees Christ as he is and is transformed into a morally perfect being like Christ. He will recognize that everyone made their choice and that everyone is responsible for their own destiny. People in heaven won't have "survivor's guilt."
Weeping endures but for a moment but we will dwell in the the joy of the Lord forever. Whatever sorrows we had about foolish decisions other made will be forgotten and left behind with the old life.
The Bible says the dead are forgotten by the living. I believe the ultimate fulfillment of that will be the spiritually dead in hell being forgotten by the "sons and daughters of God" as we move on to a "new heaven and a new earth." Perhaps that will be the most torment of all in hell. To know everyone who ever gave a **** about you has now forgotten you.
Quote:
JJ:
I knew punishment was important for you, but I didn't know it was the most important thing of all, if it even is great, when the good ones being brainwashed to forget the bad ones just to increase their eternal suffering. What a miserable, petty and negative vision.
Quote:
Elodin:
Nah, punishment is not important to me. I pray for mercy for those who don't know Christ that they may come to the knowledge of the truth. God also takes no pleasure in the wicked choosing the path of destruction.
Quote:
JJ
Oh boy. That one will be costly when god will judge you. It's such an obvious lie when you look at your stance concerning death penalty, hell and all these nice punishment things you never stop to advocate.
Quote:
Elodin
Kindly stop your lies about me. I don't desire God's judgment on people and God has no desire to judge them either.
Quote:
JJ
Dude, I didn't say you DESIRE it. I said:
"I knew punishment was important for you, but I didn't know it was the most important thing of all,"
And you said, NO, punishment is NOT important to you. OF COURSE it's important to you, and EXTREMELY SO, because without punishment there can be no justice, right?
The only question is why you deliberately lie about it?
For the third time, stop it. You are lying about me. Stop.
I said perhaps the most torment of all in hell would be a person's own realization that everyone who has loved him has now forgotten about him as they move on to the new creation and leave the past behind them, all tears wiped away, nevermore sorrows to face. In perfect harmony and perfect fellowship with the perfect God as now perfected beings who forever dwell in the Light eternal.
Now, please stop your lies about me.
|
|
Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
|
|
posted April 07, 2013 07:03 PM |
|
|
Quote:
For the third time, stop it. You are lying about me. Stop
He can't, since his entire contribution to this thread has amounted to little more than trying to put you down.
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 07, 2013 07:05 PM |
|
|
|
I am not lying about you. You are lying to yourself.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted April 07, 2013 07:32 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 19:34, 07 Apr 2013.
|
Quote:
I kind of wonder if scientists believe in god,what more proof is there needed for you,artu?
I don't know what you exactly mean here but I am not an atheist because vast majority of scientists are. I guess nobody is. This is not a club, we don't join in to belong. I just linked that statistic to reply Elodin's comment of how only a tiny group of eccentrics are atheists BS. I also linked the demographics showing how big a group are non-religious and atheist people in most developed countries for the same reason. Note that the rate is always higher among college graduates and people with degrees. It is mostly about being properly educated and keeping an open mind. Of course that does not mean everybody with a proper education and open mind will be non-religious.
|
|
master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
|
|
posted April 07, 2013 08:14 PM |
|
|
artu,I think you mentioned something about burden of proof.
No matter atheists or religious men,the burden of proof is upon those,who wants to proove something.
I believe you want to proove Elodin wrong,am I close?
If you want that,it is up to you to provide proof,not upon him.
Be aware,any proof you provide means the burden is upon you.
____________
"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
|
|
Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
|
|
posted April 07, 2013 08:26 PM |
|
Edited by Seraphim at 20:40, 07 Apr 2013.
|
Quote:
artu,I think you mentioned something about burden of proof.
No matter atheists or religious men,the burden of proof is upon those,who wants to proove something.
A says: X is a troll.
B does not believe that X is a troll because of lack of proof or evidence.
A has to proove that X is a troll.
B is an atrollist. A a trollist.
If B comes around and says X is a magical pony, B has to prove it.
@All
Here is another question:
Would you be content sending your child or a relative to a religious school?
If yes. What about a different religious school like a Muslim one or a Budhist one?
If not, why?
In Germany, it is illegal to Homeschool. What would you do if you could not afford public school or cant go to a public school(Bullying)
and have to resort to a religious school?
____________
"Science is not fun without cyanide"
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted April 07, 2013 08:31 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 20:34, 07 Apr 2013.
|
@MasterLearn
You're trolling. While it is true that his style sometimes provokes me (and many others), I have no personal grudge against Elodin and actually I would prefer to debate things without his "ha ha you can't prove there is no god" fallacies. It's just that he lacks proper formation and background to realize when he's wrong so things go on and on...
Burden of proof is upon people who say something exists, and in the specific case of God, the situation is very clear to me, just check page 23 of this thread my post at April 04, 2013 11:32 PM
|
|
Hobbit
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted April 07, 2013 08:46 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Perhaps you are ignorant of the fact that the Old Covenant Law applied to people under the Old Covenant (Jewish people in Israel.( Christianity is not now, nor has it ever been under the Old Covenant.
New Covenant without Old Covenant is just pointless and can teach nothing - that's why Christians have the Bible, not only the New Covenant. Also, there's nothing in New Covenant that cancels Old Covenant's lessons.
So yes, Mytical's question is valid and the real answer is "C".
____________
Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
|
|
master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
|
|
posted April 07, 2013 08:49 PM |
|
|
@artu,I am not trolling,I am participating in the discussion providing questions and answers on the subject of the discussion.
I am just trying to tell you there are other questions about religion than this one about existence of god.
The point is,if you are interested in other questions,I may debate with you.If not,than I will debate with others(no hard feelings).
____________
"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 07, 2013 08:51 PM |
|
|
As it happens I'm just watching a Terra X episode about the search for the "lost ark", and something has been quoted from the book of Moses, something a lot of people know:
Quote:
Genesis 22 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
...
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Does that make any sense? I mean, I thought, God was all-knowing. Here, however, he TEMPTS Abraham in order to test him, saying, NOW I know that...
Any interpretation that makes God not either not all-knowing or a mean snow (because if he knew what old Abe would do, why did he have to torture him, making him think he'd have to sacrifice his son)?
|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
|
posted April 07, 2013 09:07 PM |
|
|
When you make a vow to God, do not be late in paying it; for He takes no delight in fools. Pay what you vow! - Ecclesiastes 5:4
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. - James 2:26
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. - Hebrews 11:8
For example, they will receive the resurrection, they have a possible choice. If you choose Satan and they will receive the second death.
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted April 07, 2013 09:12 PM |
|
|
Quote:
The Old testament was for Israel. The Israelites were not Christians, they were Jews. No Christian is murderer , so says the New testament.
See though, that is what I mean by 'cherry picking'. IE ignoring anything you don't like, and following what you do. Like for instance, some of the bible is just 'parables and stories', but other parts are 'facts'. Who gets to decide that? Why? Just the things that do not shine a good light on Christians are 'parables and stories'?
Keep in mind, I actually respect ALL religions. Also, as an aside..wasn't the account of Sodom (etc) in the old testament (Its been a decade or more since I seriously did research, so I could be mistaken)..so since the old testament no longer applies, and no mention of it is in the 10 commandments, doesn't that mean that it no longer applies? Or is it again 'cherry picking'?
____________
Message received.
|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
|
posted April 07, 2013 09:54 PM |
|
Edited by Ghost at 22:34, 07 Apr 2013.
|
Through Moses.
'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel." - Exodus 19:5, 6
"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. "It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God - Isaiah 43:10, 12
Yes only 10 commandments and believe in the Bible. You 'witness' the Bible. But   when Jehovah's Witnesses took Isaiah 43:10, 12.
Hm in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. - Daniel 9:2
Maybe Jesus
but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." - Acts 1:8
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood-- - Revelation 1:5
Pentecostals who teach! But witness also need to preach.
So the Church teaches us. But should teach truthful. Paul has done?! Hm
EDIT: Summary: You prove the Bible and believe in Jesus.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted April 08, 2013 01:16 AM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 01:17, 08 Apr 2013.
|
Lot of claims being made about religious statistics with no sources. So, just for the use of participants in this discussion, here are some statistics on religiosity in the US and the world that should be fairly unbiased. I won't reiterate any conclusions of the reports or subject you to my own biased interpretations. The numbers are there for you to see in black and white. Make whatever conclusions you will.
Global Index of Religiosity and Atheism
Pew Forum US Religious Landscape Survey Report
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted April 08, 2013 05:55 AM |
|
|
@Mysty: the apostle Paul says the letter of the law kills and we are saved by grace through faith, not works. Also Jesus summed up God's commandments by saying love God with all your heart and your neighbour like yourself.
As for Sodom and Gamorrah, they were punished because the angels couldn't find even 10 righteous people in there.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted April 08, 2013 07:39 AM |
|
|
@Corribus
There is a fair amount of difference between your link and the one I posted last week, while in mine Sweden is #1, in yours it's not in the top ten for instance. Mine is done by a U.S. university called Pitzer, what is their prestige over there?
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted April 08, 2013 08:29 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps you are ignorant of the fact that the Old Covenant Law applied to people under the Old Covenant (Jewish people in Israel.( Christianity is not now, nor has it ever been under the Old Covenant.
New Covenant without Old Covenant is just pointless and can teach nothing - that's why Christians have the Bible, not only the New Covenant. Also, there's nothing in New Covenant that cancels Old Covenant's lessons.
Yes, but since it is not the truth he is interested in (as he often likes to accuse everybody who refuses his fallacies and evangelist links) but rather positional vague defense tactics that just save the day, he can say what he says above and one minute later it can be this:
Quote:
Christianity is essentially Judaism under the New Covenant.
Note: Underline is mine.
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted April 08, 2013 08:40 AM |
|
|
@Hobbit
Quote:
New Covenant without Old Covenant is just pointless and can teach nothing - that's why Christians have the Bible, not only the New Covenant. Also, there's nothing in New Covenant that cancels Old Covenant's lessons.
So yes, Mytical's question is valid and the real answer is "C".
Sadly you don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about. Before you decide to make yourself a Christian hunter you need to learn what Christianity is and what the Bible says. Otherwise you just wind up looking silly (or worse) in debates.
The Old Covenant (Mosaic Covenant) writings predicted the time when a New Covenant would be established by the Christ. The Mosaic Covenant is called the "OLD Covenant" because it was fulfilled by Christ. It has been completed. It is no longer in effect. Christ was the final sacrifice for sins that Isaiah and other prophets predicted.
Jesus Christ stated shortly before the events that lead up to his crucifixion that his sacrificial death would bring in the New Covenant.
Quote:
Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
When Jesus declared on the cross "It is finished" and then died he was referring to the Old Covenant being completed. He had poured out his soul as an offering for sin and the Father accepted the sacrifice on behalf of all who would believe in him. There was a great earthquake and the veil in the Jewish temple that separated the Holy of Holies from the rest of the temple was torn in two signifying that now every man could come and fellowship with God without the need of a Levite priest.
Quote:
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Yes, there are things that can still be learned from the Old Coveant writings. Many types and shadows and some prophecies that remain to be fulfilled. But Christians are not under the Old Covenant Law because the Old Covenant has been completed and is no longer in effect.
@Mytical
Quote:
See though, that is what I mean by 'cherry picking'. IE ignoring anything you don't like, and following what you do. Like for instance, some of the bible is just 'parables and stories', but other parts are 'facts'. Who gets to decide that? Why? Just the things that do not shine a good light on Christians are 'parables and stories'?
See above. Acknowledging that Christians are under the New Covenant (New Testament) rather than the fulfilled Old Covenant (Old Testament) is not "cherry picking." It is "rightly dividing the Word of truth."
Why, the Spirit of God gets to decide what is literal and what is a story meant to teach a point. That is why Scripture is not "of private interpretation" but the meaning is revealed by the Spirit of God. Those who have the Spirit and who diligently and prayerfully seek the truth will find understanding. Those who seek for ammunition to use when trolling will not. Like I quoted earlier, Jesus said the truth is not for everyone because not everyone wants to know the truth. Those people who don't hunger and thirst for revelation will read the words but will gain nothing but a surface level knowledge of the passage.
Additionally, some people read the Bible unlike they read any other book. They'll pull a random verse out of a passage try to make it mean what they want it to mean rather than seeking to understand the verse in the larger context of the passage/chapter/book.
@JJ
Assuming I don't have to take a trip out of town this morning I'll get around to answering your comments about Abraham and God. That was a pivitol event in Abraham's life and in human history.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted April 08, 2013 08:53 AM |
|
|
|
As always, statistics are nothing without a context or a further explanation. Just because someone claims that he's religious or atheist hardly means that he/she really is. For example, in the first link posted by Corribus, there's a line according to which some 60% of the Bulgarians consider themselves religious. The thing is, the Bulgarian idea of being "religious" if you are a Christian is going to church during the several major Christian holidays if you don't have something more important to do and maybe placing an icon somewhere in your house if you think that it fits the colour of the wall. The Muslims however are far more devoted and probably account for at least 1/5 of those 60%. So if it's just about saying "I'm religious", then yes, maybe the number is correct, provided that most people will give such an answer without giving it too much thought. If it's about "I'm a devoted believer", then it's certainly exaggerated. And of course it could be "I'm a spiritual personality" or something like that which is not the same as being religious but without further clarifications can be (incorrectly) translated that way. For example, many people believe in some "immaterial" force or something like that but do not necessarily believe in God or in any standard religion.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted April 08, 2013 08:55 AM |
|
Edited by artu at 08:59, 08 Apr 2013.
|
Quote:
Jesus said the truth is not for everyone because not everyone wants to know the truth.
Yeah, almost every faith has that. Quran says some people's hearts are sealed and they won't see that it is the word of Allah no matter what you do. That is the wigi board principle of religions, it won't move if you don't believe it or as the tailor says in the famous tale, "this is magical fabric now, stupid people won't be able to see the king's clothes."
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
