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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 07, 2013 09:50 PM |
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For example, in Luka 20 to 24, there is a prophecy on the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus himself does not command it, but being it a prophecy and about something happening to the enemies of Christians, we clearly understand this is God's deliberate way of getting revenge for the Christians, because right before the prophecy, Jesus tells them to be patient and wait for it, then he advises leaving (or not entering) the city before it. How is the city destroyed, are only the torturers or oppressors punished. Of course not, because we don't have the principle that guilt is only associated with the one who committed that guilt yet. So just like in the Old Testament, the whole city is doomed and even pregnant women get their share:
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 08, 2013 12:47 AM |
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Elodin, from what I understand based on your posts, murder is not a forgivable sin under (your interpretation of) Christian doctrine. Is this a fair statement?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 08, 2013 01:35 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 01:43, 08 May 2013.
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I don't see how Jesus' prophesy about the coming destruction of Jerusalem proves either of the claims I challenged you to prove. I asked you to prove the claim that Peter murdered people after becoming a Christian and the claim that the New Testament tells Christian to war against heathen. That passage you quoted refers to neither.
And no, the destruction of Jerusalem has nothing to do with its treatment of Christians but with the rejection of Christ and later acceptance of a false Christ as a military savior who wound up getting Jerusalem crushed by the Romans. Jesus warned the Christians of the coming destruction and to flee when they see it coming. He says fleeing will be tough on pregnant women and those with small children but that it should be done. Nothing there helps your claims. Jesus told Christians to flee, not to fight heathen. Time for you and gnomes to admit the claims you made/supported are NOT in the Bible.
By the way, Jesus lamented the coming destruction of Jerusalem, he was not gleeful about it.
Quote:
Mat 23:37-38
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,
thou that killest the prophets,
and stonest them which are sent unto thee,
how often would I have gathered thy children together,
even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,
and ye would not!
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Quote:
Elodin, from what I understand based on your posts, murder is not a forgivable sin under (your interpretation of) Christian doctrine. Is this a fair statement?
No, that is not a fair statement.
As I said earlier, the apostle Paul murdered Christians when he was known as Saul. However, he later became a Christian himself and never murdered again. He was in fact murdered by Rome for being a Christian.
Murder can be forgiven. However, a Christian will not commit murder and will not hate others according to the New Testament.
Quote:
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
Some people who claim to be Christians know they are not make such claims for nefarious reasons. Others are self-deceived.
Quote:
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 08, 2013 01:50 AM |
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The specific thing about Peter was Gnomes' claim, I said it was a good example because I took his word for it. I, on the other said ,the Bible contains parts that wont be considered moral by our modern standards. You insisted on being selective on the New Testament, and that was the first thing I came across looking into the New Testament. We still have a wrathful God who curses and destroys cities with women and children in them. It's important that it is a prophecy because that makes it a deliberate, premeditated action of the God of the New Testament.
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Vindicator
Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
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posted May 08, 2013 01:54 AM |
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Quote:
Murder can be forgiven.
How far does one have to go before there isn't forgiveness?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 08, 2013 01:54 AM |
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@Elodin.
So then would it be fair to say that if someone who calls himself Christian murders, he is no longer Christian. But if he repents, then he is Christian again? Is this the only sin for which this applies, or is it general? Also, are we talking the legal definition of first degree murder, or does any homicide qualify?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 08, 2013 02:07 AM |
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Quote:
The specific thing about Peter was Gnomes' claim, I said it was a good example because I took his word for it. I, on the other said ,the Bible contains parts that wont be considered moral by our modern standards. You insisted on being selective on the New Testament, and that was the first thing I came across looking into the New Testament. We still have a wrathful God who curses and destroys cities with women and children in them. It's important that it is a prophecy because that makes it a deliberate, premeditated action of the God of the New Testament.
Actually if you are capable of reading you would see the pregnant women mentioned were Christian women fleeing the city.
But yes, God has judged in the past, judges today, and will judge in the future. Everyone is accountable to God.
God's judgment was merely not to protect Jerusalem. The Romans crushed the Jerusalem when it rebelled against Rome under a false Christ.
And you still have produced nothing to back up your claims about the New Testament instructing Christians to "wage war on heathen." Christians are instructed to preach to unbelievers, not to wage war on them.
Quote:
So then would it be fair to say that if someone who calls himself Christian murders, he is no longer Christian. But if he repents, then he is Christian again? Is this the only sin for which this applies, or is it general? Also, are we talking the legal definition of first degree murder, or does any homicide qualify?
I'm not sure why you are not understanding. A person who hates or murders may claim to be a Christian but he does not know God. The verses I quoted calls such a person a liar.
The Bible's definition of murder is to "lie in wait" and kill an innocent person. Knowing, willful, and deliberately killing an innocent person. The New Testament says anyone who does such a thing and claims to know God is a liar.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 08, 2013 02:24 AM |
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Quote:
Actually if you are capable of reading you would see the pregnant women mentioned were Christian women fleeing the city.
They are referred to in the verse talking about the wrath of God, verse 23:
23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people
But I can let that slide and assume your interpretation is the correct one. It is still all the town folk that is being judged not the guilty individuals and they are punished by death or slavery without distinction. So the problem here isn't "everyone being accountable to God." It is the mass nature of the punishment.
Quote:
And you still have produced nothing to back up your claims about the New Testament instructing Christians to "wage war on heathen."
What I told you was this when you quoted:
Quote:
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
When waging war upon the heathens somebody can easily interpret it as this: Your brothers are Christians not the heathens. This verse only talks about people you call your brothers.
Now, that does not mean I specifically claimed that is written on the New Testament. It means if Christians decide to do that, (and there have been many times in history they did) your quote may not necessarily stop them because it is very much open to interpretation: Brothers can mean anything: People of the same group, people of the same faith, people of the same faith who don't sin...
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 08, 2013 03:07 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 03:07, 08 May 2013.
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Elodin:
I get all that. What I'm having trouble with is this:
You say a person can murder and earn forgiveness - that murder is a forgivable sin. You use Saul as an example. I presume this means that Saul (Paul) was a Christian after his eyes were opened, yes? So a murderer CAN, in fact, be a Christian. And a Christian CAN, in fact, be a murderer. I mean, that's kind of the whole point, isn't? Redemption?
But you persist in saying that no murderer can be a Christian, when your own example (Saul/Paul) seems to contradict this. So either I'm not following or you're not explaining it well.
I understand when you say that someone who contemplates murder and plans murder and commits murder is not a Christian at the time this is happening, because it runs contrary to everything a Christian is supposed to believe in. In this sense I agree with you.
However, said murderer could have been a Christian in the past, no? If, that is, he lived a life of piety and then, for whatever reason, broke bad. And likewise after a murder is committed, the criminal could eventually repent and live a life of piety and "be saved". Right?
So I guess what I'm getting at is - suppose a person lives a life of complete piety, goes to Church, and lives completely according to what a "good Christian" is supposed to be. I think you would agree he's a Christian, right? Then he finds out his wife is having an affair, loses his mind, and in an act of passion kills her. Definitely not a Christian act. Get it. And I think it'd be a hard sell to call him a Christian at that point. (Although, he still believes in God and Christ, so he's not an atheist. Not sure what label you give him here, but let's ignore that.) He goes to jail and thinks about it for ten years. He sincerely repents the act and begs God for forgiveness. When he gets out of jail, he starts a children's orphanage, donates all his money to it, and dies penniless because of all his charity. Is he a Christian when he dies? My feeling would be yes based on my experience growing up in a very Christian household, but I'd like to know what you think.
Mind, I'm not trying to be obtuse here or looking for some loophole to prove you wrong. I'm actually interested in understanding your logic, so if you don't mind please explaining it patiently I would appreciate it.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 08, 2013 03:32 AM |
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I gave the same wife-killing example on page 44 of this thread. Elodin's claim was wilder back then, his actual words were "No Christian has ever murdered anyone."
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 08, 2013 04:02 AM |
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I think the point is that no one is a Christian while they are murdering, or if they think that murder isn't bad. (Elodin, correct me if I'm wrong.) The definitional problem is that a repentant murderer can be a Christian, but is still a murderer - because a murderer is someone who has committed murder.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 08, 2013 08:28 AM |
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Not, that we didn't have this discussion, but if not every "killing" is murder, then what killing IS murder is a question of definition and discussion - and of course of subjective appraisal and assessment.
If I honestly do not believe I've been murdering someone, but killed for a very good reason, I didn't murder, so I don't need to repent either. I also don't cease being a Christian - I didn't do anything wrong.
So this discussion starts making sense only, when the person(s) in question do what they do in the clear knowledge that they do something they shouldn't do because it is murder even for them - but still do it.
And even THEN, this is a bit like Newton and Einstein: what does the big majority of the people do know of border situations, really? If you find your family butchered, your life and happiness being destroyed - when the culprit is caught and put to trial and you shoot him in cold blood - have you ceased being a Christian? Who would really be able to judge this beside god?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 08, 2013 08:37 AM |
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Quote:
Elodin:
But you persist in saying that no murderer can be a Christian, when your own example (Saul/Paul) seems to contradict this. So either I'm not following or you're not explaining it well.
No, what I have said is:
1) A person who does not know God can hate and can commit murder
2) A person who does know God cannot hate and cannot commit murder. The Bible states that a person who does such things is a liar if he claims to know God.
Saul did not know God. Saul committed murder. Saul came to know God on the road to Damascus when he was headed out to murder more Christians. After Saul came to know God his name was changed to Paul and he never murdered anyone again.
Christians can sin. Christians will sin. But hate is a sin that is impossible for a true believer to commit. Murder is a sin that is impossible for a true believer to commit. The Bible says that anyone who does one of those things but who says, "I know God" is a liar. He does not know God.
3) A person who has committed murder can repent can come to know God
4) A person who has come to know God will not hate and will not murder
5) Not everyone who claims to know God actually knows God.
6) Some people who claim to know God know make the claim for nefarious reasons. Like a con artist who wants to prey on others.
7) Some people who claim to know God are self-deceived. They think they know God but don't in fact know him.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 08, 2013 01:24 PM |
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It is very convenient for Christians to say that Christian murderers aren't Christians but atheists, yet so wrong that I can't believe it's still going on. Do you imagine murderer's wife knowing what her husband is doing, yet doing nothing about it but still claiming that she did nothing wrong and that "He just didn't know what love is"?
Also, if hatred means they don't know God, do YOU, Elodin, know God? If you do - how can you still use words like "liar", "bigot", "communist" etc. just because you don't agree with them? If not - does it mean you can still defend Christianity?
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 08, 2013 02:57 PM |
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Christians don't say that, Elodin says that. There is nowhere to be found in the bible that you are no more christian if you murder, all we are offered are parabolas which we can interpret differently and I meet thousand of Christians affirming the opposite. This is the strong point of the bible: variants, interpretations and editions, thus every one can find what he looks for.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 08, 2013 05:33 PM |
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Quote:
Christians don't say that, Elodin says that.
That's another thing - "Christians don't say that". But they do. Not all of them, of course, yet many people claim to be Christians and still talk such garbage - especially in USA (not sure why though).
It's also very convenient to say that - "We don't do that, they do, but they are not us". So how many different "christianities" are around here, huh?
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 08, 2013 05:49 PM |
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As I said, each christian has its own subjective view and comprehension of the bible. That's why would be interesting to have more christian guys answers here, not only Elodin's ones, because then we are limited to only one personal vision. And because of that the thread becomes "atheists against Elodin", while is supposed only to facilitate informations.
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Era II mods and utilities
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 08, 2013 05:55 PM |
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Although not necessarily realistic, I can find it at least consistent for a person to believe that if truly practiced his faith transforms the soul so that you don't hate anyone. The gap in that logic is however, somewhere else: People don't kill just because they hate someone. They kill because of rage, passion, jealousy, poverty and though not very common in modern times, they even kill to serve God, for heaven.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 08, 2013 06:44 PM |
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Quote:
Also, if hatred means they don't know God, do YOU, Elodin, know God? If you do - how can you still use words like "liar", "bigot", "communist" etc. just because you don't agree with them? If not - does it mean you can still defend Christianity?
We should attempt to build on eachothers shoulders and not try to destroy the basis of someone's world view, just because we disagree.
Imagine if someone actually succeeded on doing that. It'd be horrible for said person. And for what? Just because we disagree?
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Living time backwards
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 08, 2013 07:43 PM |
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Quote:
We should attempt to build on eachothers shoulders and not try to destroy the basis of someone's world view, just because we disagree.
Destroying "the basis of someone's world view" could be actually anything - starting from this basic statement: "There is God". 
It's a human thing to argue. But arguing isn't the same as hating. Arguing means that we don't agree with some, so we show them why - in our opinion - they're wrong. Sometimes it can be hard for them to realize it, but hey - life is hard as it is anyway. No one said it would be easy.
It's definitely worse, however, if someone justifies hatred and can still say that they're the loving ones. It's a hypocrisy. And it can be really dangerous.
Quote:
As I said, each christian has its own subjective view and comprehension of the bible. That's why would be interesting to have more christian guys answers here, not only Elodin's ones, because then we are limited to only one personal vision.
Ok, let me put it this way:
Christian A is completely different to Christian B. Christian B interprets the Bible literally - he believes in creationism, hates different religions (and especially non-believers), claims that God loves us but wants us to burn in hell etc. Christian A, however, takes the Bible more like a moral book - he believes in evolutionism, tolerates everyone and doesn't really think that hell is the real thing. Yet he claims himself a Christian because that's how he feels about it.
There is Atheist. Christian B hates Atheist and he claims that. He tries to argue why Atheist is wrong and convince him that he just has to believe in God or else he'll burn in hell. Atheist disagrees with that, so he accepts the argument with Christian B. That is - with the Bible itself, while all Christian B says is written in the Bible.
Now that's where the s**t begins: Christian A defends Christian B and says that not all Christians are like that, so there is nothing wrong with the Bible or the Christianity itself. Christian B doesn't stop talking, but now Atheist shuts up. He can't disagree with Christian A, while his opinions very similar to Atheist's, yet if Atheist tries to argue with Christian B, Christian A will get offended. Because hey - it's his religion.
It's actually really convenient for both Christian A and Christian B. Christian A can still claim that Christianity is great and that there's nothing wrong with it. Christian B, however, can say even more wrong things - he's sure that he interprets the Bible correctly, because if he didn't, why would Christian A defend him?
And all of that just because Christian A feels that he's a Christian.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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This thread is pages long: 
