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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 07, 2013 07:11 PM |
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And you don't make it a case of homophobic theists vs innocent atheists, both sets of people can be wrong, because they are all human.
For a dictator of course the church is a rival. The church demands attention and followers, the same things that he wants.
But organised religion does not imply control over the people by itself, a totalitarian form of government does.
I am a religious person, I consider that I belong somewhat to a church, but I don't let the church tell me what to do, I read the Bible and even then I take what can be applied today and what was specifically meant for Christians to follow.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted May 07, 2013 07:16 PM |
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Quote:
I agree, those are two different things about him that do not make it a rule that murderes are atheists. I never even suggested that.
But some posters like Hobbit deny even that he was an atheist.
Religion has no clear definiton stating that it is a form of control. But dictatorship does.
Well, you did suggest it... completely accidentally, but it was suggested. Just watch your wording a little bit.
And I believe Hobbit is just being snarky here. 
Well, the Judaic texts and the Christian OT do state that man has dominion over the earth and that all creatures are subservient to him. A perversion of that would be control over any who do not share the faith (note, I use perversion in the most scathing way possible, since that is nowhere near what the text says), but the biggest problem quote is, "Go out and make believers of the people." Many Christians have apparently added the tag, "By any mean necessary" to the end of this, which would mean that dominion and sadism are alright, even if there is nothing in the bible to support that belief (and is itself another perversion of the faith... though much less of one than the first). In other news, blind fanatics who do not know/ practice what they preach are a problem for the PR department of any religion. What else is new?
You edited that a second time while I was typing. How dare, sir.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 07, 2013 07:17 PM |
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But slipping up even once is not the end-all of your faith. It's slipping up and then honestly not caring or enjoying what you did without asking for forgiveness that is the problem.
Evidently you did not read what I wrote. I wrote Christians are not perfect. Christians can sin. But Christians can't murder according to the definitive source of Christian doctrine, the New Testament Scriptures. You may say Christians can murder. But I don't follow your teachings, I follow the teachings of Christ.
In any event, I think everyone can agree that murder is opposed to the teachings of Christ so anyone who has ever murdered has certainly NOT done so "in the name of Christ" (which means acting with his authority/according to his will) regardless of what phrases he may utter. Murder is totally in opposition to Christian teachings.
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Theism and atheism do not do harm, ideology does. Theistic ideologies like christianity has been used to excuse evil acts through out history.
Christianity teaches one not to murder but to instead love even those who chose to be his enemy. It is irrational to blame a religion when a liar claims to follow the teachings of the religion but does not in fact follow the teachings of the religion. But I've never claimed anti-theists were rational people.
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Religions get a lot of crap because people know that they excuse evil acts.
Don't listen to some liar who tells you Christianity approves of evil actions. Christians are supposed to speak out against evil. Christianity catches a lot of crap because some people get angry if something they enjoy is called sin.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 07, 2013 07:19 PM |
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Anyone who uses Christianity to excuse evil acts is a liar and no Christian, or one that is very, very deluded.
OK maybe my wording wasn't the best. I hope it's clear now that I don't believe my atheist classmate will come and stab me with a knife because I didn't help him with homework 
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 07, 2013 07:23 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:26, 07 May 2013.
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The comparison is flawed to you, friend, not to me. Being blue-eyed and being atheist are two completely different things.
Not in this example: They both have nothing to do with the motive. Religion had something to do with the motive. It's really that simple.
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The atheist dictators did kill "in the name of atheism." They were intent on driving religion out of their domain by killing religious people, burning Bibles, razing churches, and brainwashing children.
The League of Militant Atheists assisted Stalin and Lenin in murdering Christians and burning down churches.
On the other hand, Jesus said everything God expects of man can be summed up as love God and love one's fellow man.
They were intent on driving religion out of their domain because they were trying to build a totalitarian socialist state. Atheism itself is not the ideology in here. It is not an ideology in general, it is just a position.
Now, you may quote from the bible here and there and say "real" religion isn't this or that but the fact is all religions are older than the concept of basic human rights and all of them contains parts that contradict with our modern day understanding of treating people fairly within the source material: The scripts themselves. The believers of these religions either ignore those parts, claim they are symbolical, period-related (which is a paradox since they also declare the books are timeless) or turn into radicals. Radicals are radicals because they are out of time, anachronic, not because they make up false verses.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted May 07, 2013 07:27 PM |
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In any event, I think everyone can agree that murder is opposed to the teachings of Christ so anyone who has ever murdered has certainly NOT done so "in the name of Christ" (which means acting with his authority/according to his will) regardless of what phrases he may utter. Murder is totally in opposition to Christian teachings.
Peter personally killed dozens in the name of Christ and God in the bible, and he called upon God's fury to kill others who had slighted him even a bit. He was one of the twelve disciples and able to channel miracles and righteous fury at will (in the bible, at least). Or did you think that I just sort of glossed over that section of the bible? This was after Christ went to die on the cross as well, and preached his message of forgiveness and mercy... So if Christ did not approve of killing in his name and denounces all who do so, then how was Peter able to keep divine favor?
Jesus did, in fact, oppose murder, and he also preached that any man who is truly repentant can be forgiven of any sin. Thus someone who murdered (or killed at all really) in the past can still become/ continue to be a Christian.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 07, 2013 07:27 PM |
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Like gnomes said, Stalin was probably biased toward killing religious people and getting rid of churches. So I can't say atheism had no effect on his actions at all.
I agree that atheism was not his motive, he just wanted power for himself and that's that. He didn't kill for atheism, he killed for himself.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 07, 2013 07:33 PM |
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Now, you may quote from the bible here and there and say "real" religion isn't this or that but the fact is all religions are older than the concept of basic human rights and all of them contains parts that contradict with our modern day understanding of treating people fairly.
Rant, rave, and let spittle fly in all directions.
But the fact is murder and mistreating others is directly opposed to the teachings of the New Testament.
There is certainly no one more radical than fanatical anti-theists, as Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Mao, and other anti-theits have proved.
Christianity is about love. Having a loving relationship with God and a loving relationship with your fellow man.
Quote:
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted May 07, 2013 07:34 PM |
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Quote:
In any event, I think everyone can agree that murder is opposed to the teachings of Christ so anyone who has ever murdered has certainly NOT done so "in the name of Christ" (which means acting with his authority/according to his will) regardless of what phrases he may utter. Murder is totally in opposition to Christian teachings.
Just because you murder someone, does not mean that you cant be a christian.
The only thing that defines a christian is accepting Jesus as his/her savior. Those who sin can be forgiven as long as they seen jesus as their lord.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 07, 2013 07:40 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
In any event, I think everyone can agree that murder is opposed to the teachings of Christ so anyone who has ever murdered has certainly NOT done so "in the name of Christ" (which means acting with his authority/according to his will) regardless of what phrases he may utter. Murder is totally in opposition to Christian teachings.
Peter personally killed dozens in the name of Christ and God in the bible, and he called upon God's fury to kill others who had slighted him even a bit.
Nope, that is false. Quote the verses that say Peter killed anyone. Didn't happen. Oh, I EXPECT a full retraction when you are unable to produce the verses. Below is a link to an online Bible to help you with your search.
Bible Gateway
Quote:
Jesus did, in fact, oppose murder, and he also preached that any man who is truly repentant can be forgiven of any sin. Thus someone who murdered (or killed at all really) in the past can still become/ continue to be a Christian.
Yes, Jesus called for everyone to repent. As I pointed out, the Apostle Paul when he was known as Saul (before he became a Christian) murdered Christians. But after becoming a Christian he murdered no one. Christians do not murder according to the Bible.
Quote:
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 07, 2013 07:44 PM |
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Do you know what it means to be a Christian, Seraphim? Not everyone who says "I believe in Jesus" is a Christian, only those who do as He said, as in, love your neighbour, pray for your enemies, don't murder, don't hate, etc.
Of course, you can be forgiven for murdering, but only if you truly feel sorry about it and don't repeat it, don't use God's forgiveness as a license to sin.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 07, 2013 07:44 PM |
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If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
I read the New Testament but a long time ago, so I can't remember in which context this verse is. But when waging war upon the heathens somebody can easily interpret it as this: Your brothers are Christians not the heathens. This verse only talks about people you call your brothers.
And Gnomes' case of Peter is a very good example.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 07, 2013 07:50 PM |
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@artu
Quote:
Quote:
In any event, I think everyone can agree that murder is opposed to the teachings of Christ so anyone who has ever murdered has certainly NOT done so "in the name of Christ" (which means acting with his authority/according to his will) regardless of what phrases he may utter. Murder is totally in opposition to Christian teachings.
Just because you murder someone, does not mean that you cant be a christian.
The only thing that defines a christian is accepting Jesus as his/her savior. Those who sin can be forgiven as long as they seen jesus as their lord.
Not according to the Bible. Say "Jesus is Lord" 100X per day but he is not your Lord unless you submit to his Lordship (follow his teachings.) Again, Christians will not be perfect in this life but Christians can have a lifestyle of obedience to Christ and Christians won't commit murder.
Quote:
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; quote]
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted May 07, 2013 07:52 PM |
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Edited by GunFred at 19:55, 07 May 2013.
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Don't listen to some liar who tells you Christianity approves of evil actions. Christians are supposed to speak out against evil. Christianity catches a lot of crap because some people get angry if something they enjoy is called sin.
What about slavery? I have heard that the bible is fine with that. Is it true that the bible forbids eating shellfish and working on sundays? Because I totally agree with that as I find shellfish to be either disgusting or not Worth the effort and I prefer my sundays free of any work.
Quote:
...a loving relationship with your fellow man.
GAY 
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 07, 2013 07:55 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
I read the New Testament but a long time ago, so I can't remember in which context this verse is. But when waging war upon the heathens somebody can easily interpret it as this: Your brothers are Christians not the heathens. This verse only talks about people you call your brothers.
And Gnomes' case of Peter is a very good example.
No, gnomes example of Peter was making a false statement about something that is not in the Bible. I CHALLENGE YOU, as I challenged gnomes to produce the verses where Peter killed anyone. It is not in the Bible.
Also not in the New Testament is anything about waging war on heathens. Christianity is not a nation and wages no physical wars. Again, quote the New Testament verse (hint: New Testament is Matthew through Revelation) that tells Christians to war with any person. Not in there.
As I have noted previously atheists have very poor knowledge about the religions and religious texts they attack.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted May 07, 2013 07:56 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 20:01, 07 May 2013.
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Do you know what it means to be a Christian, Seraphim? Not everyone who says "I believe in Jesus" is a Christian,
No room for doubt...
Saying "I believe in jesus" is different from accepting jesus as his savior. When you accept something, you "Know it".
However, nobody is perfect and therefore nobody can attain the "Perfection of Jesus".
I said, the only thing that defines a christian is "Accepting Jesus as a his/her savior". If that person sins, he still is a christian.
I am trying to debunk the argument that true christiants cant do evil stuff. In fact, they can and christianity does allow redemption for those who did comit crimes.
This of course boils down to things like "Killing in the name of god".
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 07, 2013 08:08 PM |
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Quote:
As I have noted previously atheists have very poor knowledge about the religions and religious texts they attack.
No, we just can't memorize them like you guys, cause they are not the only books we read
Here's an interpretation of the Bible from one of your independence heroes, Thomas Paine:
There are matters in that book, said to be done by the express
command of God, that are as shocking to humanity and to every idea
we have of moral justice as anything done by Robespierre, by
Carrier, by Joseph le Bon, in France, by the English government in the
East Indies, or by any other assassin in modern times. When we read in the books ascribed to Moses, Joshua, etc., that they (the
Israelites) came by stealth upon whole nations of people, who, as
history itself shows, had given them no offence; that they put all
those nations to the sword; that they spared neither age nor
infancy; that they utterly destroyed men, women, and children; that
they left not a soul to breathe- expressions that are repeated over
and over again in those books, and that, too, with exulting ferocity-
are we sure these things are facts? are we sure that the Creator of
man commissioned these things to be done? and are we sure that the
books that tell us so were written by his authority?
To be fair, this is mostly about the Old Testament though.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 07, 2013 08:12 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Don't listen to some liar who tells you Christianity approves of evil actions. Christians are supposed to speak out against evil. Christianity catches a lot of crap because some people get angry if something they enjoy is called sin.
What about slavery? I have heard that the bible is fine with that. Is it true that the bible forbids eating shellfish and working on sundays? Because I totally agree with that as I find shellfish to be either disgusting or not Worth the effort and I prefer my sundays free of any work.
Quote:
...a loving relationship with your fellow man.
GAY
Christianity does not approve of slavery. However, Christ did not come to start a political revolution but a spiritual one. To turn people from sin to God. As such Christians are called to live sacrificially, as Christ did, not always insisting on their own rights in order to win others to Christ.
Christians who were slaves were told to serve their earthly masters from the heart, knowing God is their true master, in order to increase the likelihood of their master turning to God. Earthly masters were warned God is their Master and that he is watching what they do. Christian "masters" were even to serve their slaves and by doing so they would be serving Christ.
Quote:
Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
Eph 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
Eph 6:7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
Eph 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
In the book of Philemon Paul sent a runaway slave who converted to Christianity back to a master who had become a Chrisitan. He charged the master to treat the slave as a brother and to treat him as if he were the apostle himself and said he would repay any debt the slave owed.
Quote:
Phm 1:16 Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?
Phm 1:17 If thou count me therefore a partner, receive him as myself.
Phm 1:18 If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account;
Again, Christ came not to start a political revolution but a spiritual one in the hearts of men.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted May 07, 2013 08:12 PM |
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Elodin, your source is just a little biased in the fact that when I tried to find the word "Smote" it did not give me any results for any version of the bible... and yet I opened up my copy of the NT that I keep in my room and found a dozen examples from just a minute or three of searching. I believe the site is very well censored at this point, likely because of internet bashing and the like, so I doubt I would find anything that could be construed as violent or offensive within it. 
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 07, 2013 08:15 PM |
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Quote:
Elodin, your source is just a little biased in the fact that when I tried to find the word "Smote" it did not give me any results for any version of the bible... and yet I opened up my copy of the NT that I keep in my room and found a dozen examples from just a minute or three of searching. I believe the site is very well censored at this point, likely because of internet bashing and the like, so I doubt I would find anything that could be construed as violent or offensive within it.
No, the Bible gateway has numerous translations. You may want to chose the KJV if you are looking for a 16th century word like "smote." See the little box on the side of the passage lookup that says "New International Version?" Change that to King James Version and then searh for "smote."
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