|
|
gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
|
posted May 07, 2013 06:28 PM |
|
|
Quote:
The comparison is flawed to you, friend, not to me. Being blue-eyed and being atheist are two completely different things.
I didn't say that Stalin killed in the name of atheism, he was atheist and killed people. That's what I said and I hope you can agree.
I'm atheist. I do not kill people. In fact, there is a good population of people in Europe/ China who are atheist and do not kill people. That is the major glaring flaw in your argument, since it suggests that all atheists automatically kill people, like it's some part of their genetic code/ being. It is not, in fact, anything of the sort.
Now, saying that Stalin was a dictator and killed people that got in his way/ that he painted as villains to be scapegoats is quite a bit more accurate. His religious affiliation is not important unless he used it as justification for the crimes he was committing (as far as I am aware, no such justification actually exists in the case of Stalin).
I hope you can recognize the difference.
Quote:
"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...all this talk about God is sheer nonsense" - E. Yaroslavsky
As said by one of Stalin's advisers. Stalin himself was too worried about a rebellion to actually say something like this (which would have been incredibly stupid for him to do).
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 06:29 PM |
|
|
Quote:
This had been talked about before, probably in this thread. Stalin or Mao didn't kill in the name of atheism, they had a different agenda and they were ALSO atheists on the side. Inquisition, Islamic suicide bombers, zealots etc etc killed in the name of their religion. They killed because they believed this is what their faith expected of them and they killed because they thought of non-believers as less of a human being.
The atheist dictators did kill "in the name of atheism." They were intent on driving religion out of their domain by killing religious people, burning Bibles, razing churches, and brainwashing children.
The League of Militant Atheists assisted Stalin and Lenin in murdering Christians and burning down churches.
On the other hand, Jesus said everything God expects of man can be summed up as love God and love one's fellow man.
Quote:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Jesus said that a person who claims to follow him (to be a Christian [disciple of Christ]) but who does not follow his teachings is not in fact one of his sheep. His sheep follow him.
Quote:
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
That does not mean a Christian is perfect. But a Christian is incapable of committing murder. Anyone who hates other people or who murders may have claimed to be a Christian but in fact is not a Christian. The apostle Paul was a murderer of Christians before he became a Christian so a murderer can certainly become a Christian but once he is a Christian he not murder again.
Quote:
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 06:33 PM |
|
|
And where did I say atheists in general kill people? I said Stalin, who was an atheist did. No offense but most atheists' arguments here consist in taking my and Elodin's posts and twisting them to mean what you want them to mean.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 06:35 PM |
|
|
Hey you are cheating! Any christian who murders becomes an atheist, then of course you get your swollen statistics.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 06:37 PM |
|
|
For the record, I think that if you repent truly and do not commit murder again, you can be forgiven.
Even Peter was forgiven for denying he knew Jesus, I'm pretty sure we can be forgiven for other sins too.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 06:37 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Well, we have right here a deeply religious guy who has no problem with collateral damages of drones slaughtering women and kids, while some atheists here consider it soulless and inhuman. So the issue is a matter of personality, education and sensibility, not religion precepts.
I am pragmatic. I recognize that in a real world war there will in fact be civilian casualties. Real world wars and battles against terrorists are not on a HOMM battlefield where no civilians are present.
The US strives not to have civilian casualties but there is simply no way to fight a war against a nation or against terrorism without the possibility of civilian casualties. Blame cowardly terrorists and evil men who make war necessary when there are civilian casualties. Don't blame the heroe fighting the monsters.
|
|
gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 06:45 PM |
|
|
Elodin, according to your interpretation of the bible a christian is also incapable of lust outside of wedlock (even if it is only in their mind), lying (even by omission), theft, hatred (or any of its lesser cousins, rage and annoyance) and any kind of gluttony. The Pope would fail your test (... okay, maybe not the current Pope because let's face it, if anyone is the son of any god it's this guy. He's a pure saint). The defining model of the christian faith is forgiveness. If someone can still be forgiven, then they are still christian as long as they chose to accept that forgiveness. Otherwise, every single person falls short of the mark of being a "real" christian the moment they become sexually aroused by a certain boy or girl in their classroom upon hitting puberty (those horny adolescent dip****s >.> . Humans are, in fact, still human once they become christians, and that is one of the core tenants of your faith. Mistakes will be made, and mistakes are understandable as long as you love the lord and seek forgiveness and recognize your faults.
Are you a better christian if you don't sin? Most likely. But slipping up even once is not the end-all of your faith. It's slipping up and then honestly not caring or enjoying what you did without asking for forgiveness that is the problem.
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
|
|
GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 06:49 PM |
|
|
Theism and atheism do not do harm, ideology does. Theistic ideologies like christianity has been used to excuse evil acts through out history. When you take out the theism from and ideology you have simply ideology or atheistic ideology which has been used to excuse evil acts after the renaissance. So rather than blaming theism or atheism, blame the ideology itself wether it be christianity or nazism. The fact that some horrible dictators in history were atheists is of no importance when when compared to their religious counterparts because they all did evil because they themselves or their ideology was evil. Have in mind as well that the previous mentioned atheist dictators had something that the crusaders did not. GUNS! And contrary to Elodin-belief, guns make killing much easier and results in more deaths. The religious evil acts of the past did not have the killing technology to rival more modern evil acts. Religions get a lot of crap because people know that they excuse evil acts.
____________
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 06:49 PM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 18:51, 07 May 2013.
|
Quote:
And where did I say atheists in general kill people? I said Stalin, who was an atheist did.
Yeah, and Torquemada, who was a Christian, killed people too. So? What people are trying to explain to you (and what they had tried to explain to Elodin before they figured out that a they have better chances with a random rock) is that there's no logical connection between atheism and murders. Like there's no logical connection between religion and murders. Capisci?
Quote:
... okay, maybe not the current Pope because let's face it, if anyone is the son of any god it's this guy. He's a pure saint
"Pope" and "saint" are thoroughly incompatible concepts, lad. 
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 06:53 PM |
|
|
There are atheists who murdered and religious people who murdered. My point is, don't talk just about one side while rejecting the other as true, like some people love to do...
Example: "Hey the catholic church burned people to the stake! religion is evil!"
"stalin killed people too..."
"no no, catholics are evil!"
I hope we can avoid this pattern.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
|
|
GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 06:54 PM |
|
|
Quote:
The atheist dictators did kill "in the name of atheism." They were intent on driving religion out of their domain by killing religious people, burning Bibles, razing churches, and brainwashing children.
The League of Militant Atheists assisted Stalin and Lenin in murdering Christians and burning down churches.
They got rid of religion because religion was a RIVAL and they wanted Control of the country and its people for themselves. Not because they were atheists.
____________
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 06:55 PM |
|
|
|
Nobody here follows that pattern except the OSM mascot from Texas.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 06:56 PM |
|
|
They wanted control and religion was a problem. SO they wanted to remove it. Sounds like anti-theism to me.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
|
|
GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 06:58 PM |
|
|
Quote:
There are atheists who murdered and religious people who murdered. My point is, don't talk just about one side while rejecting the other as true, like some people love to do...
Example: "Hey the catholic church burned people to the stake! religion is evil!"
"stalin killed people too..."
"no no, catholics are evil!"
I hope we can avoid this pattern.
Yes, do not blame the catholic church for being theistic, blame it for its ideology.
And do not blame Stalin's acts on atheism, blame it on whatever ideology he acted out on.
____________
|
|
gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 07:01 PM |
|
|
Quote:
And where did I say atheists in general kill people? I said Stalin, who was an atheist did. No offense but most atheists' arguments here consist in taking my and Elodin's posts and twisting them to mean what you want them to mean.
I never said that that is what you said exactly, I'm saying that by the way you worded it, you are implying that atheists kill people. It's the same logic that goes behind, "Icecream is sugary and it tastes good," Which implies that the two are corrilatend, and that in fact the fact that icecream is sugary is the reason why the icecream taste good, so it suggests causation. It's a simple "X is Y and it is Z" fallacy, or a correlation fallacy if you want the exact terminology. In your case, I'm guessing it is just accidental and not a case of faulty logic, since you seem somewhat insulted at me telling you what that statement implies. A different way to say what you seem to want to say would be, "Stalin was a ruthless dictator who killed people. He was an atheist as well, so he was bigoted against religious people and killed more of them than he did fellow atheists." A bit more wordy, but it bypasses the correlation fallacy.
What Artu and I are saying is that the fact that he was an atheist has no bearing on him killing people, since that was not a primary motivating force for him. His goal was to keep power at any cost, a genocide or two later we know it was literally any cost. Agree/ disagree?
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
|
|
GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 07:03 PM |
|
|
Quote:
They wanted control and religion was a problem. SO they wanted to remove it. Sounds like anti-theism to me.
Two political parties who are rivals are also anti-each-other and in relgious countries that punishes non-believers it is anti-anything-else(general atheism for example). It is simple rivalry and sometimes one side is more evil than the other.
____________
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 07:05 PM |
|
|
Quote:
They wanted control and religion was a problem.
Yes, because religion is a rival form of control.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 07:05 PM |
|
|
I agree, those are two different things about him that do not make it a rule that murderes are atheists. I never even suggested that.
But some posters like Hobbit deny even that he was an atheist.
Religion has no clear definiton stating that it is primarily a form of control. But totalitarianism is.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
|
|
Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 07:06 PM |
|
Edited by Seraphim at 19:09, 07 May 2013.
|
Quote:
They wanted control and religion was a problem. SO they wanted to remove it. Sounds like anti-theism to me.
Yes. Removing religious countrol is anti theistic indeed. Without a firm grip and control, religion would be irrelevant. Religion needs to control people.
You kinda defeated yourself there. Most people would think religion does not fight for control of the human mind, but fights for its "Divine enlightenmend".
As for the stalin argument. Atheism says nothing about killing, its simply the absense of belief in god.
Now of course you can make the illogical jump and assume that without belief in god, people are immoral, which is a non sequitor and has no merit whatsoever.
So, please dont make another stalin vs angelic homophobic christians war.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted May 07, 2013 07:10 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Religion has no clear definiton stating that it is primarily a form of control. But totalitarianism is.
In the real world, religion is a form of control. And it could result in a totalitarianism. Modern day theocracies are basically totalitarian states.
|
|
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
