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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 07, 2013 04:55 PM |
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Quote:
Hobbit - so you're basically saying the Catholic Church is as bad as Stalin because of the inquisition?
Yes.
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Horn of the
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted May 07, 2013 04:56 PM |
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Fine, you're entitled to your opinion as am I.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 07, 2013 04:58 PM |
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Hobbit - so you're basically saying the Catholic Church is as bad as Stalin because of the inquisition? Sorry but it's pretty clear who was worse, and I don't need a body count to say that.
This had been talked about before, probably in this thread. Stalin or Mao didn't kill in the name of atheism, they had a different agenda and they were ALSO atheists on the side. Inquisition, Islamic suicide bombers, zealots etc etc killed in the name of their religion. They killed because they believed this is what their faith expected of them and they killed because they thought of non-believers as less of a human being.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted May 07, 2013 05:00 PM |
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Those islam and zealot people were religious and they killed people, yes.
But Stalin didn't kill in the name of religion and yet he was one of the most evil dictators in history.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 07, 2013 05:04 PM |
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Those islam and zealot people were religious and they killed people, yes.
But Stalin didn't kill in the name of religion and yet he was one of the most evil dictators in history.
The comparison is flawed. It's like comparing passion killers with blue-eyed killers. One is related to the motive, the other is not.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted May 07, 2013 05:06 PM |
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You (atheists, not you artu) always bring up the cases of murder made for religious reasons.
I merely bring an example that is not related to religion, and Stalin was an atheist. He did not kill because he was an atheist, but he was atheist and killed people.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 07, 2013 05:08 PM |
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What part of "the comparison is flawed. It's like comparing passion killers with blue-eyed killers. One is related to the motive, the other is not" is hard to grasp?
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted May 07, 2013 05:10 PM |
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The comparison is flawed to you, friend, not to me. Being blue-eyed and being atheist are two completely different things.
I didn't say that Stalin killed in the name of atheism, he was atheist and killed people. That's what I said and I hope you can agree.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted May 07, 2013 05:11 PM |
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No artu, not really. With very little exception, it is the misunderstanding of what a religion says..with the leadership of somebody who knows very well what it says but twists it to their agenda. They convince the gullible, uneducated, lost, or confused that this is what the holy texts say. They are respected leaders, charismatic, and they use this to fuel their own agenda. It's sad, but it is no more the fault of the religion then atheism is the fault for Hitler.
However, the above being said..I don't for a second believe that the minute they do something 'wrong' they are no longer part of their religion. They believe they are following their religion with all of their heart. They are innocent, the blood falls onto the hands of whoever convinced them that what they were doing is right and good. So saying 'no Christian has murdered' is a cop out. It's like saying 'No Christian has ever done drugs, lay with a prostitute' etc. We are all flawed in some way. If Christ never accepted somebody flawed, weak, or that has done something 'wrong' in their life..there would never ever be a Christian. Same with many of the other religions. Nobody is perfect, so saying that they are and they no longer do ANYTHING wrong while part of a religion is saying "Sorry everybody in this religion is perfect" and that just isn't true.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 07, 2013 05:12 PM |
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Well, we have right here a deeply religious guy who has no problem with collateral damages of drones slaughtering women and kids, while some atheists here consider it soulless and inhuman. So the issue is a matter of personality, education and sensibility, not religion precepts.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted May 07, 2013 05:13 PM |
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One who murders willingly and because he enjoys it cannot be called Christian in my eyes.
If one steals food because his children are hungry, that's another story.
I agree Salamandre.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 07, 2013 05:26 PM |
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One who murders willingly and because he enjoys it cannot be called Christian in my eyes.
Sadism has nothing to do with what we talk about here.
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You can't deduce from their actions,that they believed faith expected anything from them.This had nothing to do with faith and everything to do with power and exercising of this power upon the population.
I disagree also with the second statement in the part of non-believers-I think they thought the entire population was lesser of human beings compared to them.
You're not looking at this historically. There was an age when "killing the heathens" just because they are heathens was accepted as the norm, it was even encouraged (in some, least developed parts of the Islamic region, it still is, so you can use them like a time machine to see the crusaders of the past)and this was not irrelevant with the content of these religions.
I know the New Testament has quite humanist teachings in most cases and compared to the other two Abrahamic religions, it's a much more peaceful script but Christianity does not only consist of the New Testament, neither does its history.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted May 07, 2013 05:28 PM |
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Because people were too evil and greedy to apply The New Testament's teachings properly.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 07, 2013 05:30 PM |
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That's just wishful thinking. Get rid of rest of the bible then. Not that the New Testament is perfect by the way, no text is.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted May 07, 2013 05:32 PM |
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Christians should learn from the OT and the NT. But only the NT should be used as a guidline. I repeat, should.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted May 07, 2013 05:51 PM |
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I think Mytical has written it better tham me,so I deleted my lesser response.And artu has shown speed again.
Artu,religion consists not only of beliefs you place your attention upon,but of values,which shape morality of population later.
Every religion have its values,so I agree with Mytical that if we put one religion above another(the better over the worse),we should clearly understand the values of it,which we would choose then ABOVE the values from the "lesser" religion and this would be a choice between alternatives,but it would be again values vs another values.
And if we do that,we would underestimate the values of the "lesser" religion and overestimate those of the "better" one.
I say lets combine them!
And see if the complex of values we gain from refusing to under or overestimate values,gives us better humanity towards one another.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 07, 2013 05:55 PM |
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted May 07, 2013 06:04 PM |
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I was under the distinct impression that Stalin was a god. The argument for him being an atheists is outrageously "bad" since it simply assumes. (falsely might I add)
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 07, 2013 06:09 PM |
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I dont need to combine anything M L, I dont need religion to have values. It's an archaic way to me.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted May 07, 2013 06:17 PM |
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"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...all this talk about God is sheer nonsense" - E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin, Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow 1940
“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.” (V.I. Lenin)
All the above is directed to Hobbit. Here's your evidence. I wasn't one of STalin's family so I can't give any more clear evidence than that.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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