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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted May 11, 2013 12:36 PM |
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Well, you guessed wrong. Because I didn't want to suggest that atheists are not imaginative people, I said it doesn't matter if you're atheist, religious, or I can add rich, poor, blonde, brunette to have a rich imagination.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted May 11, 2013 12:42 PM |
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Quote:
All we think about is converting you M L.
Isn't that what "everyone" is doing in any debate or argument? 
I agree with Master learn, this thread is poorly named; it should be; "Let us inform you about your Religion". (putting it mildly) What's funny is I had a better debate with myself many years ago then "some" of the arguments here and the rest are pretty much the same. The debate ended for me a long time ago and after what I've been through the last 20 years it's not about to change now, no matter how loud or smooth the preacher.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 11, 2013 08:35 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:07, 11 May 2013.
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Quote:
Isn't that what "everyone" is doing in any debate or argument?
I agree with Master learn, this thread is poorly named; it should be; "Let us inform you about your Religion". (putting it mildly) What's funny is I had a better debate with myself many years ago then "some" of the arguments here and the rest are pretty much the same. The debate ended for me a long time ago and after what I've been through the last 20 years it's not about to change now, no matter how loud or smooth the preacher.
Well, no offense Markkur, I wish every religious person was as self-involved, polite and mature as you but they are not. (Especially if they have political power, trust my word on that as an atheist living in a country governed by Muslims.) And usually the debate for the atheist starts by noticing those huge holes in their arguments and propaganda, I mean it's actually like meeting a man who still believes in Santa at the age of 30 to us. At least to me. Then we naturally go:
- Really, I mean... come on!
I must also add I think exactly like Schopenhauer on the subject when it comes to education. Schopenhauer said he could be a little optimistic about the world if no one was thought any religion till they are fifteen (Paraphrased). Then it would make sense to talk about free will but as of know it's just a cultural conditioning and in Schopenhauer's words again: Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted May 12, 2013 04:23 AM |
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Quote:
Well, no offense Markkur, ... I mean it's actually like meeting a man who still believes in Santa at the age of 30 to us. At least to me. Then we naturally go:
- Really, I mean... come on!
I can respect all respectful opinions.  The one above is an old one that I first met at 25 and I understand it clearly. Honestly, I think I am more realistic & open-minded than most folks no matter which side of the fence they're on.
That one and this;
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Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think.
say to me; your not truly being fair in your thinking, for that statement is true of all people? Were you not instructed in schools and is there not a flow in your society that "works for you" that's helped shape who you are?
You see I don't value man's books, they are all filled with errors & speculation. What I look for is the Spirit and truth behind what's presented...my way; just as I'm sure all are doing here right now including you; we've just come to different stances. After nearly 6 decades, Most importantly I am finally secure and at peace with what I've decide to believe. I would never go back where I was...ever.
If you think on it, you will no doubt understand I can be far more upset when a Christian behaves badly then you or any non-believer here because he/she is representing the same Lord. Sort of like the leader of "Artu-International" acts as a public blight, might upset you and what's being done to your good name. (btw, either way, I'm slamming no person here, that's not my right)
Cheers...outta here:
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 12, 2013 04:44 AM |
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Edited by artu at 04:45, 12 May 2013.
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that statement is true of all people? Were you not instructed in schools and is there not a flow in your society that "works for you" that's helped shape who you are?
The difference is all other types of information are open to update and discussion opposed to religions' allegedly timeless and omnipresent rules. Religions expect blind faith from you as if it is a good thing, a sign of dedication. It comes with the package. That's why we hear so many religious people telling us "it is a matter of faith" when they run out of logical answers. Think of it, even you say:
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The debate ended for me a long time ago and after what I've been through the last 20 years it's not about to change now, no matter how loud or smooth the preacher.
That means you are not willing to change your mind even if the opposition is smooth enough to make you change your mind. And that is what we call blind faith. That kind of dedication shouldn't be imposed to a kid because he is not mature enough to make a comparison yet.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 12, 2013 05:24 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 05:25, 12 May 2013.
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Religions expect blind faith from you as if it is a good thing, a sign of dedication. It comes with the package.
I don't think this is a fair generalization. Historically many organized religions expected compliance (and killed many to get it) with the dogma set by the Establishment. However this was more about politics and power (IMO) than religion itself. Certainly faith is a part of it - since almost by definition there is an anti-empirical aspect to it - but there have been many religious scholars throughout the centuries, Christian and otherwise, who have praised the virtues of introspection. So while religions may be strictly faith based, in that they rely on beliefs not grounded on empirical observation, this does not necessarily mean that faith must be blind. It can, in fact, be the product of a lot of thought.
Thought directed toward incorrect conclusions, in my opinion, but, well, yeah.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 12, 2013 05:38 AM |
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Edited by artu at 05:42, 12 May 2013.
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there have been many religious scholars throughout the centuries, Christian and otherwise, who have praised the virtues of introspection.
Well, that is quite a weird area since, never are they ok if your introspection results in disagreement. Then you are a heretic. That's like a boss with a sick sense of humor who tells you he is open to objections yet fires anyone who actually does. Also keep in mind, there was a time in history where religions were overconfident of their position; in say 12th century, all education, governing, social interaction is heavily religion based or at least influenced by it, non-religious is almost synonymous to street thug, monster, rapist etc etc. When a priest tells you to look inside yourself, he knows you don't have too many roads to take. It's not like he's suggesting to read a Dawkins book and come back. Any valid objection to the dogma is immediately oppressed and usually with a ruthless manner I might add.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 12, 2013 06:23 AM |
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I must also add I think exactly like Schopenhauer on the subject when it comes to education. Schopenhauer said he could be a little optimistic about the world if no one was thought any religion till they are fifteen (Paraphrased). Then it would make sense to talk about free will but as of know it's just a cultural conditioning and in Schopenhauer's words again: Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think.
'Course teaching kids to make fun of religion and religious people hasn't resulted in a utopia in officially atheists nations, now has it? In fact they'll all been cesspools of mass murder and oppression.
And I find theism in general and Christianity in particular to be much more rational that atheism. 'Course there are some religions that are "out there" in left field along with atheism.
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Then it would make sense to talk about free will but as of know it's just a cultural conditioning and in Schopenhauer's words again: Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think.
Any atheist parent who says they don't teach their kid atheism is pretty unobservant. Kids learn by words and by deeds. Atheist parents train their child in atheism as much or more than a religious parent trains his child in religion.
A parent will teach his child what he believes to be the truth and the later the child will go his own way.
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The difference is all other types of information are open to update and discussion opposed to religions' allegedly timeless and omnipresent rules. Religions expect blind faith from you as if it is a good thing, a sign of dedication. It comes with the package. That's why we hear so many religious people telling us "it is a matter of faith" when they run out of logical answers. Think of it, even you say:
Atheism is blind to the spiritual side of life. But Christianity does NOT require blind faith. We have a well reasoned faith based on the nature and character of the God we know as well as our experiences with him. The God that atheists rant and rail about and decry as being non-existent we have a relationship with.
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That means you are not willing to change your mind even if the opposition is smooth enough to make you change your mind. And that is what we call blind faith. That kind of dedication shouldn't be imposed to a kid because he is not mature enough to make a comparison yet.
Except that you can't prove God does tot exist, that Jesus is not God and man, that heaven does not exit, ect. All you can do is call everything a fairy tale or a lie.
Kids won't be dedicated to something they are not convinced of and they ask a lot of questions. No matter what you teach a kid he is going to gain life experience as he lives and he'll observe the world around him and make up his own mind. And of course some kids just rebel against **everythig** at a certain stage.
Certainly atheist evangelists who spend time daily on the internet to loudly proclaim that religion is a delusion and that God is not real are quite dedicated to a cause. A cause that they has no proof for on any level. They have faith. A lot of faith. Faith that assmumes because they've never recognized the hand of God in anything that God does not exist. Some of those atheist evangelists also have very little life experience to base their conclusion on. Ah, there is hope for them yet. 
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 12, 2013 06:31 AM |
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Quote:
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there have been many religious scholars throughout the centuries, Christian and otherwise, who have praised the virtues of introspection.
Well, that is quite a weird area since, never are they ok if your introspection results in disagreement.
Really? You've never heard of Christian philosophy? You've never heard of Christian contemplation? Never heard of monks, nuns, and others who devote their life to a life of contemplation and prayer?
Hah, I was never scolded by anyone for having questions. Instead I was told "A closed mouth doesn't get fed."
I'd wager religious people in general spend far more time in introspection, contemplation, and philosophical pursuits than atheists.
You have a lot of weird ideas about religion and religious people.
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Any valid objection to the dogma is immediately oppressed and usually with a ruthless manner I might add.
Poppycock.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 12, 2013 06:41 AM |
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Edited by artu at 07:25, 12 May 2013.
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Except that you can't prove God does tot exist, that Jesus is not God and man, that heaven does not exit, ect. All you can do is call everything a fairy tale or a lie.
The nature of burden of proof has been explained many times, everybody except you seems to get it. I wont go into this circle again.
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Certainly atheist evangelists who spend time daily on the internet to loudly proclaim that religion is a delusion and that God is not real are quite dedicated to a cause. A cause that they has no proof for on any level. They have faith. A lot of faith. Faith that assumes because they've never recognized the hand of God in anything that God does not exist. Some of those atheist evangelists also have very little life experience to base their conclusion on. Ah, there is hope for them yet.
An opinion is not a faith. There is a difference and any atheist I know including myself would change his mind in a snap if there was any valid reason to. Your self-fulfilling prophecies and inner experiences don't fall under that category. We have those in people from asylums too. Atheists are not the ones who go around say things like, "too see it you have to believe it first" or "some people's hearts are sealed no matter what you do," the wigi board principle works on your side of the fence. And speaking of a daily basis, I was just about to wonder why you didn't drop by today with your preaching. Getting ready for the sunday sermon?
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You've never heard of Christian philosophy? You've never heard of Christian contemplation? Never heard of monks, nuns, and others who devote their life to a life of contemplation and prayer?
Hah, I was never scolded by anyone for having questions. Instead I was told "A closed mouth doesn't get fed."
I'd wager religious people in general spend far more time in introspection, contemplation, and philosophical pursuits than atheists.
Those introspections don't fall under the category of "feel free to disagree", you're taking it out of context. And I say, you'd lose that wager but that is just pointless speculation.
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Poppycock
Ever heard of the thirty year wars, inquisition, witch burnings... Read some history. That was the basis of my example you know, factual history. Finally, your continuous effort to reverse things with a symmetrical semantic shift makes you say ridiculous things. There is no such thing as an evangelist atheist, it's an oxymoron.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 12, 2013 06:58 AM |
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I think the biggest loophole in your theory is to assume only faith gives access to spirituality. I don't deny there is such thing in new and old testaments, but spirituality abides in immortal artworks, even those questioning the religion fallacies, as Also sprach Zarathustra or Milton's Lost Paradise. Spirituality in the sense that we are confronted and invited to contemplate at similar questions to those from new/old testaments. With the only difference that those questions remains without answer because our obvious humility in front of the universe and its mysteries. If there was an answer, we would be fixed on our fate and destiny, but do we really want to hear it? I can not imagine a life where I KNOW everything and I have answer to everything.
In general, atheist thinkers consider that man's potential is wasted when religious conscience and morality limit his actions. Take for example Nietzsche which was a pure individualist, with no concern for anything other than the life of the individual. He thought that this life, the life lived now, is all that matters. All values must be created now and lived now; all acts must be done now. To think about a "redemptive act of will" is to do what he explicitly condemned: squandering the spirit. For Nietzsche, the spirituality was something natural and inherent in man. To expend it on anything other than the self was wasteful. For sure Nietzsche was NOT a religious man, but he was an intensely spiritual man. And so feel those reading him.
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Era II mods and utilities
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 12, 2013 11:54 AM |
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Quote:
Any atheist parent who says they don't teach their kid atheism is pretty unobservant. Kids learn by words and by deeds. Atheist parents train their child in atheism as much or more than a religious parent trains his child in religion.
A parent will teach his child what he believes to be the truth and the later the child will go his own way.
So now you are the "all knowing being" here? Don't talk about things you have no clue about.
You are so wrong, I can't even measure.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 12, 2013 12:23 PM |
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Except that you can't prove God does tot exist, that Jesus is not God and man, that heaven does not exit, ect.
You can't prove that Invisible Candyman doesn't live in your house and that I'm not his daughter. Give me some prayers now or else you'll burn in chocolate milk.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted May 12, 2013 12:44 PM |
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An opinion is not a faith. There is a difference and any atheist I know including myself would change his mind in a snap if there was any valid reason to.
Opinion is a point of view,when you first study the object(religion)and after the first impression(opinion) you are convinced(the opinion is replaced by conviction).
Second,who do you think would classify the reason as VALID except YOU?Who in your understanding should give the validity of the reason?
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 12, 2013 01:10 PM |
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Well, there is a valid reason.
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Opinion is a point of view,when you first study the object(religion)and after the first impression(opinion) you are convinced(the opinion is replaced by conviction).
Do you remember your first impression on religion? Because I don't. Parents and teachers just gave it to me. And I obtained it with no question, like it was natural.
I threw it away after a while just because I was thinking too much on my own and began to argue with priests and family a lot.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted May 12, 2013 01:43 PM |
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@Hobbit,thinking on your own is the best work you can do.
But then again,thinking require to ask yourself:if some event/quality/essense is described in the wrong way,does that mean it does not exist?
Take for example a piece of art-you ask many people and they all will tell you their version of it(what does it look for them).
So the description will DIFFER much in details and stuff.
Why would we deny the art,when we have in mind only one of the descriptions?
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 12, 2013 02:20 PM |
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@Elodin
Quote:
Any atheist parent who says they don't teach their kid atheism is pretty unobservant. Kids learn by words and by deeds. Atheist parents train their child in atheism as much or more than a religious parent trains his child in religion.
A parent will teach his child what he believes to be the truth and the later the child will go his own way.
I have to agree with angelito - this is very wrong and you are just overgeneralizing. No doubt, many parent just tell their children what to believe, and I don't think atheists have monopoly on this position. The subject of God has come up many times between me and my daughter. No doubt she hears about the subject from other children in her preschool. When she asks me if God did this or God did that, I tell her that yes, this is what many people believe, and that it is OK if she believes it as well. There is nothing wrong with it. The important thing is to never hurt people with your beliefs, and never hate someone because they believe something different. She has not asked me yet what *I* believe. When she does, I will be honest, but I will again stress the importance of her forming her own beliefs, and not just believing in what I believe in simply because I'm her parent.
If more atheists AND Christians (AND muslims AND...) approached parenting this way, I thinkt he world would be a far better place.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 12, 2013 02:29 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 14:31, 12 May 2013.
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I don't deny any god-like being while I can't say it does or doesn't exist. So I think I can't be called an atheist, maybe rather a non-theist. Yet I act in atheistic way.
I deny God as a rational, human-like person. Everytime I try to understand him I end up with thinking that he's not worthy any prayers, as his logic has to be much different from human's point of view. The Bible says he's all love, but I can't name him the loving one. The Quran tells me that he'll forgive us, but I can't name him the forgiving one. I can't actually name him anything because I can't be sure of what does he want from us. And I don't see any evidence of him existing, so why even bother if he's not affecting my life in any visible way?
It would be nice if I could at least empathise with Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists or any other people. But sadly it's impossible for me.
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If more atheists AND Christians (AND muslims AND...) approached parenting this way, I thinkt he world would be a far better place.
Well, that's one of the reasons I don't want to have children.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted May 12, 2013 04:15 PM |
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Corribus, we raised our kids in the same fashion. Once I decided to follow Christ; my father blasted me on a frequent basis with his endless science and ape-stuff mantra. I learned then and there I would not even come close to doing the same with my kids and I didn't. It's all very simple; we have to believe what we believe.
Truthfully, and to my dismay, I didn't succeed in this with my youngest brother. Turned-out, he followed my "zeal", even though I never pushed him; he later admitted he was agnostic. (He was very young when our mother left, so I sort of mothered him till he moved out and on to seek his future)
@ Artu
Just for clarity, Corribus said it right; I spent a lot of time wrestling with the big-questions before now, reading a great deal from many viewpoints. Actually, there was only one Christian in my childhood, but I never knew it; I later found out my Mother was a Catholic. It was about 20 years later when she explained it was not something she "dared to talk about in front of her boys"; she had her internal and external reasons for her silence.
About Blind-Faith, both shared opinions work for me. There are things I've thought a lot about and other issues that I've not and take it as Gospel because it's not important to me.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 12, 2013 04:39 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:20, 12 May 2013.
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Quote:
@ Artu
Just for clarity, Corribus said it right; I spent a lot of time wrestling with the big-questions before now, reading a great deal from many viewpoints. Actually, there was only one Christian in my childhood, but I never knew it; I later found out my Mother was a Catholic. It was about 20 years later when she explained it was not something she "dared to talk about in front of her boys"; she had her internal and external reasons for her silence.
I didn't suggest all religious people are brainwashed into it. That would mean there are no intellectuals among them and there are. I explained why I agreed with Schopenhauer on the 15 year-old wish, when you objected by saying all things are learned at those ages just the same. Dogmatic things have a different nature. Besides, those big questions you mention don't pop up at age 10 anyway.
@Corribus:
In my case, when I asked if there was a God as a kid, they told me I'll decide that for myself when I grow up. If I ever have a kid I might do the same.
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