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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 13, 2011 02:48 PM |
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Inferno was the outsider even during the beta but had the means to compensate for some of their weaknesses but they decided just to nerf them even further.
As for Necropolis, there are many ways to balance them but I don't have the time to clarify right now. Later.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 13, 2011 03:00 PM |
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For me, IF the bugs are solved and IF H6 will be complete, it will beat the crap out of every other HoMM.
Currently a couple of things are still pretty annoying. Overall it feels only half-done, since a couple of factions are missing.
However, even with the bugs I have at least as much fun playing MP again as I had with H3, and that was a hell of a lot.
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flyingpenut
Hired Hero
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posted November 13, 2011 03:17 PM |
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I guess this series is like the civilization series and many other series for that matter. Once you create an almost perfect game by the 3rd installment there is really not any higher you can go. I loved heroes IV and civ IV because they were fun like their previouse games even though they were not better games. By the time the fifth game comes out all the gamers have play the concept so much and it just gets boring. I tried playing older heroes games this summer but couldn't have fun. I just played them too much in the past.
Anyone have suggestions on a new game concept that is similar and fun?
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Pontifex
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 13, 2011 04:59 PM |
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Quote:
Anyone have suggestions on a new game concept that is similar and fun?
Not really, unfortunately. The Disciples and Age of Wonders series are possibly the closest you can get, but I didn't like the former's reliance on über-stacking and the latter's generic/dry feel. They also failed to recreate the absolutely spellbinding magic that HOMM has evoked in me, my family and my friends.
That said, both of those are superior strategy games (if we forget the abysmal Disciples 3 released this year) than any of the installments in the latest trilogy of HOMM entries. The computer in D2 and AoW2 knows the game it's playing and it manages to provide a nice challenge for the strategically minded among us. In contrast, the HOMM series has increasingly been moving away from that target in favor of the casual crowd and the "strategy on rails" approach - endless grindy fights with neutral stacks, "corridor" maps, scripted events, big boss at the end, etc. Hence the stress put on the puzzle-y campaigns and the lack of attention for the skirmish maps.
HOMM VI is, in my opinion, bottom of the barrel in this sense. Personally I find the game to be outright insulting, and I'm not even talking of the Conflux shenanigans, the galaxy of bugs or some of the questionable changes introduced to the basic gameplay. I'm talking about an AI worthy of HOMM IV levels of brain-deadness, but with XXtreme cheating to provide the smoke and mirrors. Skirmish maps are rendered instantly pointless - waste hours of your life grinding to get to a lightly defended enemy castle in the midst of unclaimed resources. Not one of the HOMM fans among my friends has expressed anything other than extreme disappointment (HOMM IV/V AGAIN??), and not even my son would touch it - "not enough different creatures" and "the computer gets too many units" being among his key concerns.
Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if this installment proves to be the one with the shorter legs. And I have to laugh that they're announcing with great fanfare the creation of ONE USER-CREATED MP MAP that guess what, doesn't even work in MP.
In light of this new direction, the best I can say about the Heroes series is that it's devolved into a Kings Bounty-like form that holds absolutely no interest to me. Newcomers and people who pay attention to back story will find more to like and forgive. Me, I like my strategy games to focus on the strategy part first, and the fluff later, if ever. The sad part is of course that no replacement seems to be in sight, but I'm very interested in Quantomas' work with HOMMV's AI. That may turn out to be the best news of the year.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 13, 2011 07:47 PM |
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Quote:
I guess this series is like the civilization series and many other series for that matter. Once you create an almost perfect game by the 3rd installment there is really not any higher you can go. I loved heroes IV and civ IV because they were fun like their previouse games even though they were not better games. By the time the fifth game comes out all the gamers have play the concept so much and it just gets boring. I tried playing older heroes games this summer but couldn't have fun. I just played them too much in the past.
Anyone have suggestions on a new game concept that is similar and fun?
I'm not sure if these things are actual fact or just something we (and/or the game producers) tell themselves. Civ 1-4 had a very linear development, and Civ 4 is widely considered the best of the series. Similar with Heroes 1-3.
I think to some extent there can be some truth in the fact that when you've made a really superb game, it can be hard to make a sequel without making some major changes. Civ 4 was such a game - Heroes 3 wasn't, imo. I see plenty of things from Heroes 3 that could be adjusted and expanded, as indeed they did in Heroes 5.
No, H5 didn't work perfectly and some new features needed tweaking (like Initiative system), arguably a result of the changes in development of games that had happened between H3 and H5, and arguably also a result of the relatively limited budget that UbiSoft put into H5, but still - it paved the way, and H5 was a moderate comercial succss, particularly taken the disastrous incident of H4 into account.
So I don't really agree that they "had" to do something new with H6 in order for it to be a success. I think they could have made an upgraded version of Heroes 5, and people would have loved it. I think they wanted to make something new, given that H5 was forced into a frame of sticking to the model to ensure the commercial success. And there's not necessarily anything wrong with making something new - I just don't think it's true that they couldn't possibly have sticked to the old frame and expanded it. And what's worse, I don't like the new things they did, but that's another story.
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What will happen now?
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ambidext
Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
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posted November 13, 2011 07:53 PM |
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I actually liked H6 alot more than H5 just because the campaign and whole storyline is alot more engaging to me. The campaign and even skirmish style seems to be heading back to good 'ol H2 days.
To alot of players, H5 or H3 was probably the best. H3 was probably at the peak of the series, but it actually really isn't fair to compare H6 with any others yet. If we'd be more optimistic, let's just say H6 now, is way better than H5 when it was just launched ^^;
Low chance though, that it could achieve the same epic feeling that H3 brought us.
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esvath
Known Hero
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posted November 13, 2011 08:25 PM |
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Let's see :
Graphic : 7/10
Beautiful. The details are amazing. Would be 8/10 if not for those reused skins. Would be 9/10 or even 10/10 if there is a proper town screen.
Music : 7/10
Also beautiful. Still love King and Romero's work. Would be 8/10 if not for the use of recycled music.
Gameplay : 4/10
I'm bored to death. I just played the scenarios until the second of all scenarios (using the 'proper' order), and then, play no more. Each game was narrowed into battle and battle, and each battle was a repetition of same actions. I already ranted about it somewhere 
Heroes VI cut almost every aspects of the game that I love and focus on those that I don't like. Zerging battle? Sure, some love that, but not me. More streamlined resources management? Many will applaude it, but not me. The game is no longer fit my taste.
Now, I am playing Heroes V with Quantomas' AI and it feel incredible! If only Heroes VI is more like his work... Ah well, that is a wishful thinking...
Total : 6/10.
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seddy
Known Hero
Spinner of delicious cupcakes
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posted November 13, 2011 10:24 PM |
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Graphics: 8/10 (best quality, perhaps not spirit/atmosphere, but still)
Sound: 7/10 (It's nice, sometimes even good, but nothing that really thrills me)
Gameplay: 6/10 (Cookie cutter tree, having to pre-build your heroes, no unique hero specialities, little interaction between skills and faction blood/tears skills)
Campaigns: 6/10 (Side missions are AWESOME! But... I grow tired of the same concept: take over map, wait 3000000 turns to get HUGE army, kill boss easily. Necro was by far the most fun!)
Balance: 3/10 (Yeah do I need to explain that one?)
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 14, 2011 01:00 AM |
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@Zeno:
Having now completed the Inferno campaign I actually think simply changing around the Hellhounds to make them useful for creeping is all they need to do to make Inferno fairly closely balanced with Sanctuary and Haven. One defunct creature in a line-up is all it takes to significantly mess up a faction, especially for a core unit since they are vital for the early game, which will have a ripple effect for the rest of the game.
Gating is not a bad ability. I think it's just a repeat of Heroes 5 where not everybody appreciates the utility it can offer when it comes to soaking up retaliations, using units as speed bumps, etc  A new trick in H6 is to use the gate itself as an obstacle, which can come in handy. Inferno is a more advanced faction to play compared to something like Necro. H6 Inferno has the same problem that H5 Inferno had. It's not that their abilities are bad, but rather that their creature line-up is rigged against them. They had no-retaliation hellhounds in Heroes 5, but then they didn't have a ranged unit until tier 4. Now they have a ranged unit, but hellhounds aren't much use for creeping anymore.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 14, 2011 07:24 AM |
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The Hellhounds ARE useful for creeping the way they are.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 14, 2011 07:32 AM |
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Quote:
@Zeno:
Having now completed the Inferno campaign I actually think simply changing around the Hellhounds to make them useful for creeping is all they need to do to make Inferno fairly closely balanced with Sanctuary and Haven. One defunct creature in a line-up is all it takes to significantly mess up a faction, especially for a core unit since they are vital for the early game, which will have a ripple effect for the rest of the game.
Gating is not a bad ability. I think it's just a repeat of Heroes 5 where not everybody appreciates the utility it can offer when it comes to soaking up retaliations, using units as speed bumps, etc A new trick in H6 is to use the gate itself as an obstacle, which can come in handy. Inferno is a more advanced faction to play compared to something like Necro. H6 Inferno has the same problem that H5 Inferno had. It's not that their abilities are bad, but rather that their creature line-up is rigged against them. They had no-retaliation hellhounds in Heroes 5, but then they didn't have a ranged unit until tier 4. Now they have a ranged unit, but hellhounds aren't much use for creeping anymore.
Giving the Hounds No Retaliation should deffinitely increase their usability and durability, and I simply can't understand that they haven't done that.
About the Gating, there is one crucial difference: In Heroes 5, you could start combat with placing a Gate with some or all of your units. This ment that by the time enemy units had approached your units, the gated units would be arriving. That's no longer the case, now you have to wait til the gauge has filled enough to place your first gate, and once you place the gate, you then have to wait another turn for the gated creatures to arrive. This means a pretty critical delay for the first creatures to arrive, and hence much less use of it. I'm not sure if the fact that the creature doesn't actually place the gate itself pays off, at least not in early game.
One possible change would be to make it so that the creature can place the gate whenever you want (like in H5), but the creatures only arrive once you empty the racial Gauge to "charge" the gate. This could work like this:
1) Creature places gate when it has turn. This might take up some or all of its turn [I'd say creature can Gate + move but not Gate + attack, like with some other activated abilities]. Several Gates can be placed at the same time (possibly limited by racial skill level).
2) You empty the racial Gauge at some point to "charge" the gate.
3) The creature arrives once the Gate is "charged", but no less than:
- 1 turn after the Gate was created with Gating I.
- 0.75 turns after the Gate was created with Gating II.
- 0.5 turns after the Gate was created with Gating III.
- 0.25 turns after the Gate was created with Gating IV.
This might make it more tactical because you can have more Gates present, place the Gates earlier (even though the creatures might not come much earlier, at least in early game), and also because it will allow you to use the first turn where you might normally just wait to place the Gate.
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What will happen now?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 14, 2011 08:17 AM |
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Quote:
Having now completed the Inferno campaign I actually think simply changing around the Hellhounds to make them useful for creeping is all they need to do to make Inferno fairly closely balanced with Sanctuary and Haven. One defunct creature in a line-up is all it takes to significantly mess up a faction, especially for a core unit since they are vital for the early game, which will have a ripple effect for the rest of the game.
Try them against a skilled human player and see what happens. I haven't played the Inferno campaign yet but from I've seen in Haven's one, the thing is too easy even on the highest difficulty due to the moronic AI. Inferno has great difficulties against the Haven turtle and playing against this faction is an uphill battle at best. You do have some chances against Sanctuary, I agree, but then again the Sanctuary player can easily slaughter you just by using Retribution Aura if everything else fails for him - and it's not like this is their only tool. Ass odd as it may seem, Stronghold appears to be the only faction that Inferno can handle without struggling to keep up during the whole battle - which does not mean that Stronghold is weak by the way but just that it does not have as many instruments to parry Inferno's tactics as the other factions (yet they still have Retribution Aura...).
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 14, 2011 08:36 AM |
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When actually playing maps with Inferno, you have to consider the availability of Inferno's champion, and Inferno's champion is a pretty nasty thing to deal with.
I find creeping with Inferno not any more difficult than with the other factions.
Let me add, that 1.2 will fix RETRIBUTION AURA (which is the actual OP thing).
a) Damage will be capped at THIRTY (30)% instead of 100 and
b) Cooldown time will be upped from 3 to 5 turns.
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted November 14, 2011 09:27 AM |
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Edited by B0rsuk at 09:30, 14 Nov 2011.
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I still think Heroes 3 is overrated. It is a good game, but nowhere near "strictly better than Heroes 2" as some people insinuate. I can elaborate.
- Heroes 2 has better spell level balance. For example, Mass Slow is level4, Mass Haste is level 3. Now in Heroes3, both are level 1. No wonder investing in Mage Guild is so unpopular !
- Heroes 2 has lower ratio of stinking spells. Go ahead and count, I enumerated them in my thread in the Library. H3 has a multitude of highly questionable spells like Protection from 1, 2, 3, 4,
- Casters are more competitive. Not only do they deal more damage compared to weakly growth (even Death Wave is scary). Mass spells in Heroes2 are level 3 or higher. They cost more and might heroes have much higher time affording them.
- more stinking skills, like First Aid, Artillery, Learning, Scholar. Mysticism and Estates, okay skills in Heroes2, are gimped by significantly increasing mana and gold income for everyone. (For reference, fully built city gives you 1250 or 1750 for warlocks. No capitol.)
Heroes 2 is better designed. Heroes 3 has more stuff. What do you prefer ? More in this thread:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=36106
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 14, 2011 09:46 AM |
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Quote:
When actually playing maps with Inferno, you have to consider the availability of Inferno's champion, and Inferno's champion is a pretty nasty thing to deal with.
The Pit Fiends are nasty but are currently both bugged (Hateful Retaliation triggers Blade of Hatred which should not happen) and not hard to deal with if you don't attack them with creatures that can be retaliated against. Haven has two such creatures + 1 shooter + 1 ad hoc shooter (The Griffin), the other factions have at least one such creatures and/or good shooters. The only inconvenience is that by using such approach the Pit Fiends/Lords are more or less allowed to freely wreak havoc and can't be taken down very quickly but this alone is manageable as long as the other creatures do not support the Pit Fiends/Lords very effectively - and most of them don't.
Good to hear that Retribution Aura is getting nerfed.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 14, 2011 10:17 AM |
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Graphics: 9/10 (water is imaculate, trees lush, combat attacks and lucky attacks, etc. would be 10/10 if town screens)
Sound/music: 8/10 (good affects, music creates atmosphere and glad they kept the melody like previous heroes games for us nostalgic folk!)
Gameplay: 7/10 (Can get repetitive doing the same things in battle re: heroes abilites, shared creature pool is not cool)
Balance: 4/10 (Necro racial ability needs some serious toning down, and Inferno racial ability too slow, AI are still pretty dumb)
Overall: 7/10
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 14, 2011 10:29 AM |
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I am somewhat annoyed and pleased both.
I liked the idea of a system that allows me to go with any build I like. What I'm annoyed at is piss poor balance of this system, even after the extensive beta period we participated in. They ignored most of our reports and just released it. Ridiculous.
I like the graphics and the style, well I'm not crazed about it but it's good.
The maps feel small... What I loved in H2/H3 was the XL exploration and adventure of massive maps. You won't really get that here.
The combat is too slow against typical weak neutrals for my taste. It's pace in player battle, I'd rate it much higher than Crazy pace of HoMM V which was all about the first strike and after that the battle was pretty much solved.
I miss content. More castles, more artifacts, more spells. I realize this is due to financial difficulties and will be "fixed" in expansions, but as a stand alone game , HoMM 6 is just small.
I am annoyed by balance issues. Necropolis was grossly overpowered in beta from the day 1, and judging by people's comments here, it still is. Inferno is claimed to be UP since day 1 too and no real buffs happened. Might heroes still suck.
Overall, I think that as a separate release, Heroes VI is somewhat disappointing. It's a fun game, but there's simply a weird feeling of it being shallow, not mechanics wise but content wise. This game had the potential to be probably the best Heroes game ever made, but right now it's not even near that title. I think that Ubihole's extreme sluggishness in developing the suggestions we flooded them with is partially responsible for that. I'm sure the game will be good, but not anytime soon. We need like two expansions, new units, new castles and new artifacts to feel like we're playing a complete game, and that, while it may be ok two-three years from now on, right now is unacceptable.
I'd say 6/10 for the effort.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 14, 2011 10:51 AM |
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odium
Known Hero
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posted November 14, 2011 11:31 AM |
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I would rate Heroes 6 with 6/10 and if bugs are solved and balance fixed I would give it a maximum of 7/10. For the record, I rate H5 3.1 at somewhere around 8/10. For me one of the most disappointing things is the ideology they follow to make creeping easier for all factions (so that you don't rely on different types of "AI" abuse) which, corroborated with the idea of making the game more battle oriented, leads to some boring implementation. It turns out that now there is not much danger for creeping with most factions but you have to mechanically follow the same pattern for a pack (so that I use Heroes terminology ) of turns. Due to this, I find myself getting bored to death sometimes and to be honest I did not have this feeling in H5.
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted November 14, 2011 11:59 AM |
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hmm for me homm VI already kicks the crap out of V becouse of the quick AI turns. on the pain stakingly long maps with ai turns of over 5 minutes. the new ai turns are all it takes to make it better as V. On the down side the ai is closest resembled by a scared japanese schoolgirl. aslong as they have a threat rating of high they will chase you to no end. but as soon as they drop to severe. they run away screaming abandoning all their goods to die off a heart attack in the wilderness somewhere.
the campaign : well i like it the dialogs are often funny, i love some of the voice acting altho lip cynchronisation is sometimes terrible in the cutsenes. also pretty much liking the story.
Online /Multiplayer: for me the mayor thing missing right now is simturns.
but i personally like the new Dynasty hero system and the unlocking
of avatars and dynasty traits / weapons. there should be more maps tho.
i thought the townsteens would bother me to death but in the end.
i dont mind the current ones too much its quick and efficient eventho some core buildings are missing.
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