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leonhart
Hired Hero
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posted December 04, 2011 07:37 AM |
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Edited by leonhart at 07:40, 04 Dec 2011.
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^quality before quantity
I'm not sure and I can't prove it, but I think you're trolling or 12-year-old. What Heroes 6 needs in order to become a good game is a lot of bug fixing and balancing. If the core game is unplayable, 6 new towns wouldn't make this game better at all. And you just don't fart 6 new towns. It is hard and takes a lot of work to expand this game while keeping it solid. And quite possibly they'll eventually add Academy, Sylvan and Dungeon.
...and conflux? whatthefucjnkljknljkljhg
you made me cry
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 04, 2011 08:22 AM |
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Yeah, to each his own, but I think the days are gone where the game is made better just by adding new factions.
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What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 04, 2011 08:42 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I think he means he has no trouble playing against Necro (with any faction) or playing with Inferno (against any faction) or even playing with Inferno against Necro ("both").
Yes,I got what he meant. I just said it makes no sense. Necro is once again more than a good player with a good faction can handle if the opponent has equal skill. Ok, it's not as dramatic as in HoMM5 vanilla, but it still not really balanced - or at least that's the impression I got and nobody disagrees as of today. You may have no problem in playing with Inferno vs Necro and you may even win, you have my praise; but that still doesn't make it a fair matchup even remotely, so from a game design standpoint, it has no relevance.
A: "Necro still has too much advantage over others."
B: "I can play vs Necro and win."
B's response makes no sense. That's what I was saying.
MANDATORY EDIT: notice that I am quite dissatisfied with this and I am on the good end of the stick (Necro) nonetheless. I guess I'd be a lot angrier if I was a dedicated Inferno player, and once again the fact that someone "can" win with Inferno doesn't make a balance problem absent.
So what exactly makes Necropolis so overpowered, please? And Inferno so underpowered? What personal impression are you basing that upon?
And just for correction:
I didn't say, I play Necro and can win against it with Inferno.
I said, in MP I accept Necro as an opponent, and I'm more than prepared to play Inferno myself, because I just like playing them.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted December 04, 2011 09:01 AM |
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Quote:
Yeah, to each his own, but I think the days are gone where the game is made better just by adding new factions.
These days will be back! You will see 
Quote:
What Heroes 6 needs in order to become a good game is a lot of bug fixing and balancing. If the core game is unplayable, 6 new towns wouldn't make this game better at all.
I belive that's what killed the game. Many players want something "new, different, more" without any specific purpose in mind. So Ubihole created some unseen factions and added a bunch of non-heroic features at random just to provide "new game". Very few people asked for "better game".
It's all about poorly understood marketing, when you need to be innovatve and sell round bricks while all the world uses rectangular ones.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted December 04, 2011 09:04 AM |
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Quantity must co-exist with quality. That's the ideal. But since the game is now is in such a miserable stage, they should take care of quality first before they take on quantity too.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 04, 2011 03:15 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 15:17, 04 Dec 2011.
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Quote:
So what exactly makes Necropolis so overpowered, please? And Inferno so underpowered? What personal impression are you basing that upon?
And just for correction:
I didn't say, I play Necro and can win against it with Inferno.
I said, in MP I accept Necro as an opponent, and I'm more than prepared to play Inferno myself, because I just like playing them.
To answer the question:
A) common consensus;
B) personal experience in campaign (which is easy anyway), skirmish maps, hot seat;
C) a little understanding of game-design theory that tells me C1) if an element in the game has an advantage in a crucial aspect of the game (as Necro with troop losses) that should be balanced heavily on some other side (like Stracraft's Zerg: they have their strenght in numbers, but the individual quality of their units is inferior) and C2) if two out of an arsenal of seven creatures are severely crippled (cerberi and breeders) and another one is needlessly nerfed (pit lord) it's not unreasonable to expect a weak faction overall;
Keep in mind that if you have some reasoning to prove this wrong, I'll gladly hear it. I like to think that maybe it's me or my friends who don't know how to make Inferno work properly. If you have a point, please make it.
To answer your "correction":
Yes I got what you meant right from the start. It still has no relevance from a game design perspective. I have beaten mono blue decks with a mono white deck at Magic: The Gathering, that doesn't stop blue from being an overpowered color since the last twenty years, it's just my personal experience and thus not really a point.
The only relevant point you made is that you consider Sanctuary overpowered rather than Necro, which I cannot contest because my experience with Sanctuary is limited. If you want to make an argument, best start from that.
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted December 04, 2011 04:04 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
So what exactly makes Necropolis so overpowered, please? And Inferno so underpowered? What personal impression are you basing that upon?
And just for correction:
I didn't say, I play Necro and can win against it with Inferno.
I said, in MP I accept Necro as an opponent, and I'm more than prepared to play Inferno myself, because I just like playing them.
To answer the question:
A) common consensus;
B) personal experience in campaign (which is easy anyway), skirmish maps, hot seat;
C) a little understanding of game-design theory that tells me C1) if an element in the game has an advantage in a crucial aspect of the game (as Necro with troop losses) that should be balanced heavily on some other side (like Stracraft's Zerg: they have their strenght in numbers, but the individual quality of their units is inferior) and C2) if two out of an arsenal of seven creatures are severely crippled (cerberi and breeders) and another one is needlessly nerfed (pit lord) it's not unreasonable to expect a weak faction overall;
Keep in mind that if you have some reasoning to prove this wrong, I'll gladly hear it. I like to think that maybe it's me or my friends who don't know how to make Inferno work properly. If you have a point, please make it.
To answer your "correction":
Yes I got what you meant right from the start. It still has no relevance from a game design perspective. I have beaten mono blue decks with a mono white deck at Magic: The Gathering, that doesn't stop blue from being an overpowered color since the last twenty years, it's just my personal experience and thus not really a point.
The only relevant point you made is that you consider Sanctuary overpowered rather than Necro, which I cannot contest because my experience with Sanctuary is limited. If you want to make an argument, best start from that.
+1000 for everything : Magic blue deck is a joke - from the basic phantom warrior to elemental flyer - and Necro is broken as snow 
Some points about Necro being OP :
- 4 Heals : Ghost (heals too much if there are adjacent units), Race ability, Archliches, Vampire lord (15%, weak yet add it with a Magic heroes life drain +60 %, and the old vampire is back)
- Archlich strongest ranged unit in the game. No range archery penalties, extremely high damage for a ranged unit. Combine that with their heal, and with high number they resurrect alot of troops
- Absolutely overpowered Buy-back. You pay +50 % for every troops dead in the past 4-8 days and it's -10% per each same building you own. Late game Necro is absolutely unstoppable.
- Dynasties weapon makes them even more OP than other races. Archlich buff, life drain percentage... can't remember the name of this dynasty weapon.
- Ghouls are very strong all around and too cost-efficient.
The only cons (which doesn't mean that much..):
- Putrid Lamasu is useless, expensive and doesn't add anything concrete
- Elite unit are lacklusters
- Skeleton , although ranged, doesn't do much damage.
If these points don't convince anybody, they are either noobs, can't analyse at all, misinformed, or just don't want to see the truth.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 04, 2011 04:39 PM |
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I don't think they should nerf the Ghost's healing ability. It is one of the more strategic ones, and it can be countered.
They should nerf Necromancy, Ghosts (not Wail of the Netherworld), Archliches, Ranged Spider Ladies, maybe Ghouls and buff Lamassus a bit.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 04, 2011 05:25 PM |
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If that's upposed to be an analysis, you people must be kidding.
By the way, something cannot be overpowered by itself, only in comparison.
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted December 04, 2011 06:58 PM |
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Quote:
I don't think they should nerf the Ghost's healing ability. It is one of the more strategic ones, and it can be countered.
They should nerf Necromancy, Ghosts (not Wail of the Netherworld), Archliches, Ranged Spider Ladies, maybe Ghouls and buff Lamassus a bit.
The racial skill (Necromancy) should be nerfed ALOT.
Did you reach an end game hero with Nec IV resurrecting 100+ archliches ? Yep, quite imbalanced.
Ranged Spider is good but you waste one turn if you are being attacked by melee.
Ghouls needs a very small nerf for sure.
Lamasu / putrid lamasu snowing suck.
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Kivo
Famous Hero
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posted December 04, 2011 07:17 PM |
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Edited by Kivo at 20:13, 04 Dec 2011.
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Ghosts abilities need to be nerfed a little and also Ghoul aswell. I think that Skeletons should get a little improvement as many never use them. Archlich has to be nerfed - a lot! Vampire a little, but Lamasu needs some kind of improvement, but only a little. That's how I see it.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 04, 2011 07:59 PM |
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The Lamasu is a great creature as it is, don't make it even more powerful please. Necropolis already has 100 means to slowly kill the opposing force without even attacking it directly and the Lamasu helps a lot in this regard.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 05, 2011 01:24 AM |
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Quote:
If that's upposed to be an analysis, you people must be kidding.
As I already said, I am eager to read yours. You're not under any sort of censorship here. And please let me assure you I'm not trying to provoke you on this, if there's something I'm missing I want to know what it could be.
I do think one of the thing this game needs to reach its full potential is rebalancing, and I do think Necro and Inferno are the prime candidates for it. If you have something to object, please do so; Show me why Necro is fair; show me how to make Inferno work; show me why Sanctuary is the strongest faction.
Currently you haven't said anything substantial to make me reconsider.
Quote:
By the way, something cannot be overpowered by itself, only in comparison.
So what? This statement is true, but since nobody denied this, it still fails to make a difference.
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 05, 2011 03:08 AM |
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Btw does it have the Potential to be the worst ?
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted December 05, 2011 05:35 AM |
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No.
In its current form - taking into account all of the bugs that haven't been fixed - it already is the worst.
Once those bugs are fixed, I think we'll have a solid better-than-IV game. Then it's a matter of the other problems being fixed with patches and expansions. By the time this game sunsets, it will probably be just as good as (if not better than) Heroes V.
I'll always miss Heroes III, though I also realize that this is mostly a feeling of nostalgia.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 05, 2011 10:39 AM |
bonus applied by Doomforge on 05 Dec 2011. |
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Quote:
Quote:
By the way, something cannot be overpowered by itself, only in comparison.
So what? This statement is true, but since nobody denied this, it still fails to make a difference.
If nobody denies this, than why did I read only comments like, "the liches are too strong"? Compared with what? In which respect.
Also, it's not me who has to make the point - the game is the way it is; if you don't like the balance and want a change, it's YOU who has to give reasons why.
Anyway, Necro isn't simply overpowered, because it can creep well - the others can do just as well, that's at least my opinion. You cannot creep faster than fastest. It's just that Necro is very straightforward in its approach. Everything is geared to bringing all losses back that occur in a battle, and that seems to be necessary as well.
Creeping is what determines how good a hero with how big an army you will be able to muster when things are going to be determined in a fight against another, comparable army. While Necro can make sure they creep in an optimal way - fastest and with zero losses - if the others can do that as well, this constituates no advantage. So it would be up to you to prove that the others cannot creep as well.
In any decisive battle Necro is OP, not because NECRO would be OP, but because turtling in combination with 3 shooters and the racial is a superior defense strategy the game offers no solution for. There is, for example, no good area spell that would really discourage a turtling strategy here. If you turtle around Liches and act defensive with any modicum of skill, you need superior forces to beat yourself trough - once you do, though, Necro will be fairly hard pressed, because Necro has a hard time boosting melee damage (no Inner Fire, no Heroism), which means that their melee units are fairly weak against "real" melee tanks. However, you will have to virtually stamp over their dead bodies to keep them from standing up again.
Note, that this situation wouldn't change when you doctored about NECRO units - it's simply necessary to expand the arsenal of skills and spells (and maybe even creature abilitie) with counter-turtling stuff: more effective area spells (that may work on creatures as well), allowing two damage two creatures in a row or add splash damage and so on.
In any case, no matter whether they do that or not, in reality Necro must be beaten stack by stack, and because of their racial workings (friendly losses add 3 times as many points than enemy losses), you actually have to think about your attacks very thoroughly. More than against anyone else you have to simply defend, if there is no GOOD attack.
You might say, that Necro is able to make best use of the game's weak points.
In contrast, Inferno needs more effort. In the beginning stages the racial is standing somewhat in contrast of conserving-army tactics. The racial demands to have as many stacks as possible, since you need to trigger Luck for your racial to work. Also, the portal, once erected, is blocking the WAY, but not shooting.
In contrast to that conserving strategy wants to concentrate stacks - you don't want to take small losses on a couple of stacks, but just on one to be able to cast regeneration - if you want to go that way, that is.
Making use of the racial needs spreading them into as many stacks as poissble - enough, to say here, that best Inferno play will involve quite a lot of changing your army shape around, splitting, re-merging, splitting, and so on. (That's true for Stronghold as well, mind you.).
Later on, Gating is a devastating racial. A level 15 hero can summon 10% of his complete army strength at start with EACH of 7 possible gatings. Also it can be placed wherever you want it to be.
However, Inferno is a somewhat and especially in contrast difficult to play faction, not only while creeping, but also in decisive battles. Inferno doesn't excel in anything except the potential number of stacks on the battlefield, and to handle that one most effectively, especially against a human opponent, is a couple of leages above dealing with Necromancy (or the Sanctuary or Stronghold racial). It's a "chaotic" faction, especially in that sense that there is no generally sound strategy (other than with, of course, Necro).
In theory, countering the Necro turtling strategy, would try to concentrate ranged and destructive power on killing the guarded Liches and then immediately summon something onto them - but in practise that won't work, since shooter power won't be enough to kill them, plus the hero must be able to summon something onto them immediately after killing them.
There is also no good area spell (generally) - Poison Cloud might be one, but not against Necro. In short, MOST stuff that would work against Necro's turtling strategy, is rendered useless due to their mind immunity, while the no-moral disadvantage is of less consequence in a defense strategy. That includes some otherwise quite powerful creature abilities (Lilim, Vestals, for example).
So in practise you must break the wall around the Liches and deal with the Namtarus who are powerful as well.
On the other hand, finding the balance here game-wise is rather difficult, because it cannot be a matter of course either. It SHOULD NOT be easy to beat the best strategy of a town - it's just that Necro strategy is so obvious and unspectacular.
Still, from a construction point of view, in any normal game, you need ARCHliches to really make the most of Liches turtling. Building Archliches, however, will completely cripple your building economy. You need 19 Ore and 16 Crystals for those (10.000 gold are less of a problem), which will be a massive strain for your economy. Especially with a view on Crystal needs for Champion creature basic building and Ore for Fortifications.
In contrast to that, Inferno is in a good position to come up with Champs early, forgoing Elites completely, depending on the map.
So what I would much more like to see than weakening Necro to the point that they virtually HAVE to turtle and defend as a matter of course to even stand a chance of surving a battle, is a general strengthening of the anti-turtle weaponry available.
Making Liches 2x2 creatures might have worked wonders here as well.
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted December 05, 2011 11:15 AM |
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i would prefer if they would brought liches growth down a notch. you can still own necro sometimes, but it's on edgy... i manage to completely annihilate necro couple of times with stronghold, but you need some luck to do that, as you can bust the turtle open before necro can act sometimes, and once you do that and you block shooters it's really hard for necro to come back
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted December 05, 2011 12:26 PM |
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No.
In its current form - taking into account all of the bugs that haven't been fixed - it already is the worst.
Once those bugs are fixed, I think we'll have a solid better-than-IV game. Then it's a matter of the other problems being fixed with patches and expansions. By the time this game sunsets, it will probably be just as good as (if not better than) Heroes V.
I'll always miss Heroes III, though I also realize that this is mostly a feeling of nostalgia.
It will be a long and hard way to beat Heroes V. Not just about fixing bugs, AI and balance but introducing some radical changes to the gameplay as well.
First off, without a RMG, it doesn't stand a chance. Then the impossible task of coming up with good Town Screens, the simultaneous turns for those who like MP, adding more weapons than just the Dynasty ones, introducing more variety to the skill trees between factions, ditching the sneaky DRM or make the Conflux actually useful, toning up somehow the strategy/management aspect of the game, coming up with some new designs for certain creatures and for god's sake no more duplicate ones in the expansions, making the Map Editor more user-friendly as people complain that it's not, to not pound us with 10 dollars worth of DLC of a new Dynasty Weapon or Hero but release true expansion packs as in the previous games, bring back classic features of the game that were omitted, ditch the free hero recruitment, ditch the common pools, make the Town Portals more difficult to obtain and/or use, introduce anti-aliasing, exceed the 8 factions in number with the final expansion, introduce more of everything (spells, items, heroes, neutrals, map locations) etc. etc. etc.
Oh, and redesign the Hell Hound to have one head and the Cerberus three! FFS...
That's what it takes to beat Heroes V and compare with Heroes III. And I see it as just slightly difficult to happen...
Even if half of these will be done, I'll be happy but not consider it better than Heroes V and III. If all of these will be done, it will probably become my favorite game ever! If few of these or at worst, none of these will be done, it will be the worst Heroes and even H4 would look like a masterpiece compared to it.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 05, 2011 12:28 PM |
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Let me add, that turtling is a winning strategy not only for Necropolis. Once again it is generally much too good.
For example, if you play Inferno campaign map 1 (hard difficulty, beating Toghrul (without wasting time sitting around and wait for another week of troops) involves turtling your superior Lilim force. The easiest way is, I'd say, getting both 20 unit stacks of Breeders, and turtling Lilims with them and Maniacs, leaving Hellhounds as bait and Tormentors as stack of gatable creatures, leaving it to Lilims to do most of the damage.
In any open fight the Pit Fiends, Hell Hounds and Maniacs of Toghrul would toast you.
So maybe it was even a design mistake to make Necropolis the turtle faction.
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted December 05, 2011 01:00 PM |
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First off, without a RMG, it doesn't stand a chance.
that is true
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Then the impossible task of coming up with good Town Screens,
not so impossible i think
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the simultaneous turns for those who like MP,
huge con of H6  and not an easy change, hope we will get there in time for first expansion
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... introducing more variety to the skill trees between factions [...] toning up somehow the strategy/management aspect of the game, coming up with some new designs for certain creatures and for god's sake no more duplicate ones in the expansions, [...] bring back classic features of the game that were omitted, ditch the free hero recruitment, ditch the common pools, make the Town Portals more difficult to obtain and/or use, introduce anti-aliasing, exceed the 8 factions in number with the final expansion, introduce more of everything (spells, items, heroes, neutrals, map locations) etc. etc. etc.
and after this i think you just want completely different game... so I would advise you go back to H3 or H5 as 90% of those ain't gonna happen
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