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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2011 12:53 PM |
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The problem is, you have to buy the heroes early, if you want to avoid high costs - once your hero has reached a certain level, hiring a hero will be enormously expensive.
So that means, we deal here with the special case, that the main hero actually Mentors a hero bought EARLY, NOT underway somewhere with an army of his own, but just in time being mentored from fairly low level to level, say 16, 17, 18, something like that.
So? There's still the reputation abilities. A high level hero can do a lot against a neutral heroless army, but against a skillful opponent with the right (reputation) abilities who deploys the right troops against him he will be pretty powerless.
There might be a regular damage-all skill though (there is, after all Mass Regeneration available to counter that and you wouldn't fight with your full army anyway).
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 02, 2011 12:59 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 13:00, 02 Dec 2011.
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You hire 2-3 heroes early in the game anyway so here you go.
As for Mass Regeneration, etc. - it won't help you at all. The opponent won't wait for you to resurrect your forces but will get his creatures killed by your retaliations as soon as he decides that he has dealt enough damage. In any case, get a stack of Enraged Cyclopes controlled so it can slaughter half of its army in one strike and then go heal as much as you want. Ain't gonna help.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2011 01:07 PM |
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I can't follow you - if you are attacked, you will fairly obviously deploy ACCORDING TO THE THREAT ONLY.
I mean, who would be foolish enough to deploy his full army against 7 small stacks of rubbish, led by a high level hero?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 02, 2011 01:09 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 13:09, 02 Dec 2011.
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So what are you saying, that you won't make a super-hero which moves with the majority (if not all) of your army out of fear that some high level kamikaze may attack you and wreak havoc? 
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted December 02, 2011 01:13 PM |
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no he will just deploy the panther warriors and they will demolish your hit'n'run hero before you do any real damage...
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 02, 2011 01:16 PM |
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And what stops me from intercepting them with my main hero and killing them with no losses (except if he's using the same approach, i.e. kamikaze hero with high level spells)?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2011 01:20 PM |
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What the hell are you talking about? There is this little skill called tactics. If you come with a Kamikaze I deploy the mind-influence immune Panthers only. If you come with the main I deploy everything.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 02, 2011 01:32 PM |
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Heh, do so. You will lose all or almost all of you Panther Warriors against a few high init creatures and a hero with a few direct-damage spells (with AoE damage so you can't split them too much) and the next kamikaze will own you anyway. Your losses will be far greater in both cases so I don't see your point at all.
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted December 02, 2011 01:41 PM |
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sure... i can't resurrect them in between your hero amazing damaging abilities right?
anyway this discussion is just pointless
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2011 01:52 PM |
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Quote:
Heh, do so. You will lose all or almost all of you Panther Warriors against a few high init creatures and a hero with a few direct-damage spells (with AoE damage so you can't split them too much) and the next kamikaze will own you anyway. Your losses will be far greater in both cases so I don't see your point at all.
It's obvious, that you are theoretisizing. The Direct Damage spells do nothing, not for a level 1 hero, and not for a level 17 hero, considering how many Panthers the level 21 hero your Kamikaze faces will field.
Also, talking so big, you SHOULD know, that the only creatures beating Panthers in initiative are Sacred Kirins.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 02, 2011 01:56 PM |
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OK sir, as you are claiming that YOU are not crafting theories, where are you available for a game or two? How's next week?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2011 02:16 PM |
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I'm not playing MP again before 1.2 is out - apart from the frustrating medium and small bugs I've too often wasted time with the server telling me I wasn't connected to the internet or something else was wrong, especially when you had to load a save.
But in general, no problem. I'm looking forward MPing after Xmas anyway.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 02, 2011 02:20 PM |
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Good, I'm looking forward to a few games after 1.2 is released.
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pacifist
Famous Hero
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posted December 02, 2011 02:50 PM |
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Hit and run is badly implemented, very cheap way to ruin a game so the potential to be the best has yet to be developped. You can hit and run with 1 champion unit too, even a unit with 50% damage reduction at start like a kirin and come back home without losing anything. That's not normal, at least you should lose all army. As time passes people will just discover new ways to harass, and this will lead to new rules as is the case in Homm3 online tournaments. I will not develop harass technics here as it's not the subject but it can be a new topic where developpers could discover the flaws of their product. Maybe part of the solution will be to make rehire more expensive each time.
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http://www.youtube.com/user/alkoriak#g/u
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2011 03:08 PM |
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I think, you CAN make Kamikazes, but not in a general and simple way.
For example, an Inferno Magic hero is nearly immune against Kamikazes. Ravagers are beaten in initiative only by Sacred Kirins, and Blood 2 will give you Armageddon (this time hurting only the opposition).
So this hero will toast any Kamikaze immediately, except one that comes with a fairly sizable amount of troops. The question is, though, whether THAT will be worth it.
Generally, a "damage-all-spell" (Heroes 2 Elemental Storm comes to mind, damaging only the opposition this time), would make most of these attacks fairly useless, and it's no big deal to introduce them.
But even without that I think that there is no general recipe, how to do it, and it's not easy to time it. The opponent isn't helpless this time. So you have to find the right way, if any, to do it in each constellation and on each map, and in my book, everything you cannot do by following a simple routine involves planning, strategy and everything else needed to win.
As opposed to being hit by a Warlock with a couple of Stalkers.
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted December 02, 2011 03:13 PM |
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yep, hit and run this time around is much less annoying than in 5 or alike, sure it's still a pain but to disable it we would have to drop mentoring completely
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted December 02, 2011 04:42 PM |
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It's a part of the game. Compared to H3 times of hit'n'run, this is heaven 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted December 02, 2011 05:05 PM |
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Quote:
It's a part of the game. Compared to H3 times of hit'n'run, this is heaven
Couldn't agree more.
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Pontifex
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 02, 2011 10:57 PM |
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Edited by Pontifex at 22:58, 02 Dec 2011.
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Quote:
Quote:
The meat of the strategy always pivoted around the classics: resource management, army composition and logistics considerations.
Lol biased much??
...huh? What is there to be biased towards or against, again?
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After this statement you are totally not credible dude.
But to my knowledge I haven't made any claims warranting any assessment of credibility. Feel free to disagree with my opinion, though.
I take it that like me, you're not a native English speaker. However I don't think the words you're using mean what you think they mean.
(hint: that still doesn't say anything about your "credibility" or lack thereof)
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Resource management didnt even exist before h6 because everything required different resource.
Okay, yeah honestly at this point I hope it's all about a language barrier, otherwise I'd have to assume you never built a marketplace, traded resources with allies or sacrificed some to produce artifacts in any of the previous Heroes. All actions that fall under "resource management", which clearly existed before h6.
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You conveniently(hope there is such word) forget about actual meat of the game which is creating a powerful hero, defeating neutral and opponent armies in combat using different tactics,
building your empire: stuff that wasnt existed before h6 at all because there was impossible to defend it thus there was no borders
(bold mine) Really? More strategy stuff(tm) that didn't exist in the series until HOMMVI -of all games!- invented them? You are correct though in that I haven't addressed tactical combat, as success in this area is largely the result (apart from the obvious factor - the player's skill) of the correct application of the key strategic concepts mentioned above, including resource management.
But given that this is just one of the many aspects that are not needed in h6 to the extent that it was before (hence my "Heroes Lite" moniker), I can now see how the notion that this game has "potential" is fueled. This game was obviously made more for you than for me, and that's not necessarily a knock on the game (except for the AI debacle). The target market for the series has shifted. FWIW, I hope you believe me when I say I'm glad you're enjoying your game.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 02, 2011 11:43 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 23:50, 02 Dec 2011.
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Quote:
I can understand that, especially after reading in gamespots review highlights that one of top three minuses of the game is people disconnecting from games often. I think that says it all about the quality of the game lol.
We are discussing the game from a series' fan perspective, which usually isn't actually the most objective standpoint to discuss a game. Let's be fair, the game is more than decent and usually enjoyable and we'd appreciate it if we were newcomers who just bought their first HoMM.
They took pretty big risks in handling some of the game's long standing features and I don't think they did perfect in all instances, but I want to specify that I think the territorial management (unlike pretty much all economic aspects) has strictly improved if anything. Conquering an enemy fort is a very relevant event and whoever says that flagging a spare mine was more relevant is in my humble opinion largely off-track.
Town portal is indeed a big issue, but whoever says it makes the game simpler is probably speaking from Kodial79's perspective, I mean is not playing against human opponents. One should take into account that just as defending territory is now easier on your side, so is on your opponent's. What town portal really does is shifting the focus of the game because you no longer have the option of capturing your opponent pants down because he turned east rather than north or whatever. The only way for a main hero to miss the chance to defend a fort is that he is at least two full turns behind the main hero, which indeed lessens the importance of explorations but also avoids minor mistake to prejudicate a whole match; on the other side, it would stress the importance of economics management (as: who has the best economy will have the strongest army) but, because economics is so simplified, it boils all down to whoever manages the army in the smartest way in direct confrontation (unless, then again, one of the two players makes a BIG mistake and has lost troops vs neutrals, or attacks the other main hero whereas fleeing was the correct thing to do).
Now, all of this is DIFFERENT from what it was before, and not necessarily better, but certainly NOT less strategic. It is, possibly, MORE strategic - I can easily think of two very memorable games at HoMM3 that I just stole with magic tricks and luck, something I'd just won't be able to do with HoMM6.
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On a sidenote, speaking of what this game is missing, why is balance such an undiscussed factor? I like more then everything else to get a rebalance of the factions. I have a marked preference for necropolis and I am seriously wondering when I will get a multiplayer playable necropolis if I ever will at all. I felt HoMM5 was a huge progress in that respect, but I now feel we stepped backwards again. What have I done to game designers to prevent me from playing the faction I love against my friends?
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This thread is pages long: 
