|
|
Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
|
posted December 06, 2011 11:24 PM |
|
|
When I think of balance issues...
I think of the Knight town in Heroes 1. If you wanted a real challenge, you played as Knight. Not because their strategy was complex and difficult to use, but because their units were incredibly weak compared to every other town type. Could you still pull off a Knight victory? Sure. Was it difficult? Absolutely.
The game has migrated away from that to more of a "Every faction needs to be exactly equal", and I'm not sure I like that.
If JJ says that there's a way to play Inferno and make it work, then I'd like to hear what he has to say, rather than condemning his arguments (and him) for being contrary.
|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted December 06, 2011 11:44 PM |
|
|
|
Lol JJ , you had me fooled for a second, your last post explains it all tho. You drawned deeper and deeper with each sentence. Theorycrafting->
|
|
lilbenniboi
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 05:41 AM |
|
|
i miss nightterror.. 
|
|
Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 07:33 AM |
|
|
Quote:
When I think of balance issues...
I think of the Knight town in Heroes 1. If you wanted a real challenge, you played as Knight. Not because their strategy was complex and difficult to use, but because their units were incredibly weak compared to every other town type. Could you still pull off a Knight victory? Sure. Was it difficult? Absolutely.
The game has migrated away from that to more of a "Every faction needs to be exactly equal", and I'm not sure I like that.
If JJ says that there's a way to play Inferno and make it work, then I'd like to hear what he has to say, rather than condemning his arguments (and him) for being contrary.
I wouldn't mind if a faction or two were "hard mode" and one or two were "easy" (or better yet simple / complicated, but still balanced), however it must be a do-or-don't. Either the faction should be intentionally weak in specific ways as a challenge or it should be intentionally balanced. The factions should not be unbalanced because the developers screwed up, and they shouldn't be slightly weaker or have a bad unit. And if they decide to make some factions hard to use, they should compensate for it such that you can't get cheap victories by setting the AI to those, or if you do you get a score penalty.
____________
I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 08:33 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Lol JJ , you had me fooled for a second, your last post explains it all tho. You drawned deeper and deeper with each sentence. Theorycrafting->
If you think Sanctuary power is theory, you can't have them played.
Kappa Shoyas are hopelessly overpowered. I wonder whether you have ever been hit by a sizable stack led by a good hero?
Another remarkable thing is that Sanctuary has a great play with both Might and Magic hero. With a Magic hero the Medusa upgrade followed by the Priestesses, both full range shooters, both having the same Init, so that you can arrange that they move directly after each other, will have a spectacular ranged effect.
Consider the Spirits which work somewhat like they start with Mark of the Wizard (HoMM 5) on them.
Then think about all the movement inhibiting stuff - under a might hero even Wanizame will be a serious problem because of their movement crippling effect combined with a certain toughness. I mean, they reduce movement by 3, deal overtime damage and deal bonus damage to creatures suffering from that, which is pretty effective.
Kenseis are probably the most dangerous creatures of the game, since they have such an amazing damage potential. They are able to mow down half an army in one turn (Cleave and Twin Fangs combined with Four Waves) and the darn Challenge will force your hand as well, if the attacked stack survives.
Clearly, Sanctuary has best unit synergy in the game - even their Champion has support qualities.
|
|
odium
Known Hero
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 09:00 AM |
|
|
JJ, I've been reading this whole discussion and I must say that I cannot follow you. Let me explain. You made a post that received the quality star in which you showed why Necro is OP (because of the fact that turtling is such a good strategy in the current state of the game and because Necro is the most adept at it). Now you say that actually is not Necro who is overpowered but the Nagas. Let's just presume that Nagas are overpowered then it means that they can beat Necro the majority of times when controlled by two players that know to play the factions at their best. If that is so, then everything you said in the post for which you received the quality star is false.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 09:59 AM |
|
|
I said, that the turtling strategy is generally OP, and that Necro is geared around it, so Necro can make best use of it.
That means, Necro actually doesn't do anything except defending, shooting and Raising (hero doing what is necessary to just make the undead as pesky as possible).
And I lamented the missing tactical options to support busting the turtle/strafing close formations and so on.
Also, you have to keep in mind that I was asked to describe why Sanctuary is OP, without taking into account their water-walking abilities.
So Kappa Leap is OP (that's not a strategy thing).
Water-walking is op in serious MP (not a strategy thing).
Hailstorm is OP, but might be buggy?
Apart from that, Sanctuary has best unit synergy and can actually try and make their units work together in an OFFENSIVE, ACTING way.
I note again, that I don't speak of Duels here, but of real games.
I note also that if talking about Necro, I'm against nerfing Necro, but I want to BUFF ANTI-TURTLING.
With Sanctuary I want to NERF KAPPA LEAP (damage, cooldown time?)
I also want to nerf Water-Walking (this might be done with higher MP costs travelling on water, which wouldn't change the ability, but lose time at least).
I also think that Hailstorm has to be reviewed.
With Necro the question is whether Lich-nerfing would really do so much. Half-range shooter? Archery III, Artifacts. Reducing damage? Still Archery and Archery 2 plus Air spells. No matter what you do with the Lichs, the strategy will always revolve around Lichs being safe and comfy behind a wall damaging and raising (AND EXPANDING ON THE EFFECT), with opponent having to find a way through the turtle.
What is bad, actually, is the fact that a faction can be so strong due to a certain formation, but will be beaten to shreds in no time by Stronghold and Sanctuary at least, once they can bust the formation.
Is that bad design? I don't know.
What I know is, however, that I've played not enough games to really have more than a couple of tendencies which I described. If you play a game, a lot depends on the actual map set-up, what kind of outside dwellings there are (to boost only a certain part of the army and make their general effect bigger), how big a map is and how long it lasts, and so on. The actual building strategy in a game plays a role, and with CORE dwellings being the most prominently used, CORES will more often than not be more relevant than, for example in Duels. That's true for maps with some towns as well.
I think that those are NOT especially favoring Necropolis.
Someone mentioned that Light Magic is pretty OP currently, and I tend to agree. It's not only because of the insane Retribution Aura (imagine that on Necro turtle!), but also because Healing is a so much better option in some situation than Regenerating or Life Draining.
That's why I'm waiting so desperately for the patch, in order to reassess things.
|
|
pitsu
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 10:00 AM |
|
|
Quote:
When I think of balance issues...
I think of the Knight town in Heroes 1. If you wanted a real challenge, you played as Knight. Not because their strategy was complex and difficult to use, but because their units were incredibly weak compared to every other town type. Could you still pull off a Knight victory? Sure. Was it difficult? Absolutely.
I'd disagree. Knights had disadvantages in sieges and slow first day movements was annoying, but they weren't weak. Knight heroes boosted troops well. Troops had good damage output, even peasants were not easy to avoid on the small field and often got a good hit done before dying. Most importantly, knight buildings and units were cheap and, particularly on higher difficulties, they gained early game advantage. Thereafter it is up to the map and player how well that early advantage is converted into late game advantage.
In think Homm1 easily has the potential to be the best Homm game ever...
____________
|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 10:54 AM |
|
|
Yes, sanctuary has many good things, abilities etc, the thing is, other factions have them too, well, except inferno 
Maybe you have good experience playing sanctuary, good experiene playing inferno, maybe youre a good player but this does not matter when you are talking about the balance. Balance is when 2 people with similar skills have similar chances to win the game given all things being equal etc. To be able to say some thing is OP or NOT, especially for such a new game, many people need to provide input just because one is not able to look at each agle of each faction in so short time. You may have beaten many people playing inferno yourself but i have played againt good players when they were playing inferno and they lost miserably , i didnt even lose single stack. But you know what , those things alone dont matter because there is a need for more observation. A lot more observation says you are wrong, sorry.
|
|
odium
Known Hero
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 10:54 AM |
|
Edited by odium at 10:56, 07 Dec 2011.
|
@JJ
As you pointed very correctly a couple of posts ago, saying that something is OP does not mean anything. It has to be OP with respect to something. Can you be more explicit when you are referring to something being OP. Up to now you said that Necro is OP because of turtling, and Nagas because of Kappas being so good damage dealers and water walking strategical superiority. In my understanding you cannot have 2 OP factions generally speaking (better than all else, including one against the other). Maybe you wanted to say that Nagas&Necro are OP with respect to the remaining factions?
|
|
x-ecutionner
Known Hero
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 11:17 AM |
|
|
Quote:
@JJ
As you pointed very correctly a couple of posts ago, saying that something is OP does not mean anything. It has to be OP with respect to something. Can you be more explicit when you are referring to something being OP. Up to now you said that Necro is OP because of turtling, and Nagas because of Kappas being so good damage dealers and water walking strategical superiority. In my understanding you cannot have 2 OP factions generally speaking (better than all else, including one against the other). Maybe you wanted to say that Nagas&Necro are OP with respect to the remaining factions?
Overall faction tier:
Necro OP
Sanctuary / Haven strong
Stronghold balanced
Inferno UP
Only Inferno is at a clear disadvantage, Stronghold initiative & raw power compensates partially for their lack of heal in decisive battle, even though they got a minor disadvantage, they are still decent.
Tier 7 - Elite creature however, is pretty balanced (Kirin in needs of a small nerf in stats).
And late game Inferno is as strong as other factions - that is, if you can reach late game with sufficient troops.
No mass heal clearly is a disadvantage to farm stacks, artifacts, or to conquer castle with minimal losses. Now i'll end it on this never-ending discussion as this tier-list is regarded as the current one.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 11:39 AM |
|
|
A slight correction, Odium.
What I want to say is, that Kappa Shoyas have too high damage potential combined with massive movement, high initiative and low cooldown for the jump plus no retaliation - they are basically what people would want the Dogs to be, except they are more numerous.
So they are OP as a THREAT.
Water-Walking is OP in relation to everyone else - you can wreak a lot of havoc with water-walking heroes.
Sure, everyone can hire a Sanctuary hero, but only Sanctuary can develop on that.
Retribution Aura is OP for everyone who can get it, if the retributed damage is too high because it can actually turn the offensive power of an opponent against himself. There is no comparable skill that deals damage to every opponent who defends or counterstrikes.
This would mean that CURRENTLY, if all factions were equal with everything else, the Light factions would be OP because there is no counter against OP Retribution Aura: you can win only by damaging the opponent, but if damaging the opponent is damaging you in the same or nearly the same way, you can only lose, since opponent is amaging you as well.
My main intention here was to show that it makes no sense to Nerf Necro units as such (as it will make no sense to nerf Light Magic Faction units). However, makes a lot of sense to nerf Kappa Shoyas.
You have to correctly identify what the actual problem is.
I would like to know for a change what you people here think the actual problem is with Inferno. Zenithale made an interesting post, but that was more geared to explain why people THINK Inferno sucks. Other than that, I've read only that obviously people are beaten when playing Inferno, but I never read WHY this would be so - what they were lacking.
|
|
pacifist
Famous Hero
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 02:02 PM |
|
Edited by pacifist at 14:04, 07 Dec 2011.
|
As it is now (before patch 1.2) Sanctuary wins all duels flawlessly with only Sacred kirins and a magic hero. So you cannot let sanctuary heroes develop much levels after 15th in games. Almost same but more difficult to make it work right is with kappa shoyas only. Problem is higher initiative and no retaliation but the latter can be compensated with regeneration betweem turns. Petrification cooldown too small (4 turns) when a 3 turns petrification can be turned in 4 turns easily with wait action. Maybe if dispel worked vs own petrification but then stronghold heroes will have the problem alone since they don't have access to prime magic.
In real games expect hit and run tactics with main heroes (not secondaries) and suffer from that abusive possibility the developers let in the game.
Inferno dogs are ok for me and the main threat in any stage of the game, normal that they are preferred target too, even champion units fear them. What must be tested is what happens if the opponent don't target cerberus but demented for example. How different will it be for the fight, don't you lose also a good amount of them? Normal that the opponent targets the most dangerous, fast stack. It's like saying you lose too much marksman vs ranged units and spells . The inferno players knows the dogs will be targeted so he can act accordinly, even though later opponent has to deal also with breeders and ravagers. You must kill also whole stacks to prevent gating of sizes often greater than original even though you can kill original later. There is much to take into account before saying this unit is OP or UP.
Sometimes I'm happy the developpers don't respond favorably to all complaints, specially since the game has only a few months of live and much yet to discover...
____________
http://www.youtube.com/user/alkoriak#g/u
|
|
x-ecutionner
Known Hero
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 02:03 PM |
|
|
Quote:
A slight correction, Odium.
I would like to know for a change what you people here think the actual problem is with Inferno. Zenithale made an interesting post, but that was more geared to explain why people THINK Inferno sucks. Other than that, I've read only that obviously people are beaten when playing Inferno, but I never read WHY this would be so - what they were lacking.
Breed Mother: 15-18 dmg, half range
Lich : 16-19 damage, full range
Arch Lich: 18-22 damage full range (ok part of this is because Arch Lich is imbal, but even compare to Yuki Onna and Centar the Breed Mother's half range still kills them.)
(to add insult to injury)
Lilim : 5-7 dmg, full range.
First problem : Horrible ranged champion unit - when you consider Archliches and Centauress with no range penalties + amazing skills (Regen and Half map target shoot + First evasion from melee attack).
Cerberus health point of 22 combined with a poor defense make their stratospheric attack unnoticeable as they die too fast & are the first target on the battlefield.
Passive (Gating) can be destroyed (3 hitpoints), is absolutely useless early game, and needs alot of duplicable stacks to work efficiently. If most of the stacks are severely damaged, Gating becomes extremely weak while Other faction's passive are always strong.
Only good things Inferno got is their Lilim (no range penalty) and their Pit Lord (late game...)
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 02:22 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Inferno dogs are ok for me and the main threat in any stage of the game, normal that they are preferred target too, even champion units fear them. What must be tested is what happens if the opponent don't target cerberus but demented for example. How different will it be for the fight, don't you lose also a good amount of them?
You don't, the Demented have better defense and higher population, so even a single Demented is more durable than a single Cerberus and you get more of them. Plus, the opponent will very rarely target the Demented early and why should he - they can't attack anything immediately, nor they have any ability that can do damage without engaging something in melee.
Quote:
It's like saying you lose too much marksman vs ranged units and spells
But you don't lose any Marksmen because Haven has several ways to recover their losses. And even without the resurrections, placing the Marksmen behind Praetorians halves the damage. And then you have Guardian Angel... So, yeah, a very flawed comparison.
Quote:
The inferno players knows the dogs will be targeted so he can act accordinly, even though later opponent has to deal also with breeders and ravagers.
What if the opponent does not agree to let you "act accordingly"? You can't tell him "OK, listen, I have this incredibly fragile stack here, please don't hurt it so I can bring it to your line and bite something. Oh, yeah, and can you please arrange your creatures in a straight line so I can do maximum damage? Thank you." You won't find many gentlemen willing to oblige.
Quote:
You must kill also whole stacks to prevent gating of sizes often greater than original even though you can kill original later. There is much to take into account before saying this unit is OP or UP.
Have you seen the quantities that any Inferno hero can gate before getting to a very high level (20+)? Some 30-40% of the original stack at best. Some threat...
|
|
pacifist
Famous Hero
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 02:52 PM |
|
|
Quote:
It's like saying you lose too much marksman vs ranged units and spells
But you don't lose any Marksmen because Haven has several ways to recover their losses. And even without the resurrections, placing the Marksmen behind Praetorians halves the damage. And then you have Guardian Angel... So, yeah, a very flawed comparison.
It was a general comparison based on selecting targets that are the most dangerous and you showed means to prevent them in haven setup but that doesn't nullify the fact that they are very fragile by themselves just like the dogs. I can also prevent cerberus losses with reinforcment, regeneration, life drain (note that few of them bite already very hard), tier 2 might, or combination of all those. Anyway, it seems everyone will keep his position, I can only say that playing with inferno is one of the most enjoyable factions for me just because it's not so easy as the other factions...
____________
http://www.youtube.com/user/alkoriak#g/u
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 03:04 PM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 15:05, 07 Dec 2011.
|
|
Nobody denies that it's enjoyable, I'll pick Inferno and Stronghold before the other 3 (especially Haven) any time just because they are just fun. But it's not fair. You don't play MP to lose I guess and if you play with Inferno and the other player is similarly skillful, he'll have the upper hand by default. The problem's that there is just no synergy between the Inferno forces and while that's fine concept-wise, this should have been compensated with higher individual power - and that's not the case.
|
|
pacifist
Famous Hero
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 03:15 PM |
|
|
What about tactics 2, and (rush or charge), + maybe cleave? With the initiative of the Ravagers should be possible. They are very close to the H5 cerberus no? They did a big carnage and died . Nobody complained those it seems. Well, it's a possibility even if I don't like to play like that, I prefer reinforcments first even with blood or magic hero most of the times, specially with very big armies.
____________
http://www.youtube.com/user/alkoriak#g/u
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 03:24 PM |
|
|
|
I already asked him that, but got no answer. Rushing the dogs is pretty cannibal.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted December 07, 2011 03:32 PM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 15:33, 07 Dec 2011.
|
|
That's not applicable vs. Sanctuary and Stronghold and won't do much damage vs. Haven due to the Praetorians which are usually in the centre of the turtle. And Necropolis will just resurrect everything back with Necromancy and the Ghosts, in the latter case using the Cerberi as life potions. Moreover, the damage of the Cerberi stack is overestimated. The individual damage of the creature is high but the stack is always among the smallest on the battlefield due to the low growth and eventually the casualties suffered against the neutrals - as a result it doesn't deal much more damage than most of the other Core stacks. Your only hope for good damage is to hit two-three creatures simultaneously with Luck (when it starts working again).
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
