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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 05, 2011 11:03 PM |
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Quote:
You can for example Kamikaze with Breeder Bombs stealing mana off a Necro.
Maybe against a Magic hero and you won't really do much except if you throw half-to-all of your Breeders in consecutive waves. Necropolis doesn't need to cast many spells against Inferno, 2 or 3 will suffice. And then there is the Might hero who will hardly give a damn about the mana leech.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 05, 2011 11:43 PM |
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@JJ:
sure, Necro is not unbeatable. If it was, or if I thought that, I wouldn't have said the game is imbalanced, I'd have argued that the game sucked on a over-dramatic level. I merely argue that it has the advantage.
The interesting thing though, is that you seem to think that Sanctuary is stronger than Necro. I haven't played much with it or against it, so I'd gladly broaden my knowledge by reading why you think so. Water-walking apart, i mean.
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted December 05, 2011 11:48 PM |
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Quote:
@JJ:
sure, Necro is not unbeatable. If it was, or if I thought that, I wouldn't have said the game is imbalanced, I'd have argued that the game sucked on a over-dramatic level. I merely argue that it has the advantage.
The interesting thing though, is that you seem to think that Sanctuary is stronger than Necro. I haven't played much with it or against it, so I'd gladly broaden my knowledge by reading why you think so. Water-walking apart, i mean.
Jolly Joker is just in needs of attention.
The game still remains imbalanced, and Inferno got no early / mid game tool.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 06, 2011 08:00 AM |
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It just seems you can't get a decent play out of Inferno.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 06, 2011 09:21 AM |
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Quote:
It just seems you can't get a decent play out of Inferno.
That's just hominem.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 06, 2011 11:24 AM |
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If that's hominem, what is that?
Quote:
Jolly Joker is just in needs of attention.
And that?
Quote:
Inferno got no early / mid game tool.
When I play Inferno I have no problem early and midgame, so it's a pretty clear-cut conclusion.
More indicators are comments like "the dogs suck" which is complete nonsense - you just have to use them correctly (and depending on what problem you face).
In any case, I don't think, anyone of the Inferno whiners here has REALLY tried to get into the faction. Just like it was in H3, by the way.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 06, 2011 11:27 AM |
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The opinion that the Hell Hounds and the Cerberi suck is shared by pretty much everybody, from lamers to on-line veterans, so it seems that you are the only one who has figured out how to use them. Which, naturally, is a bit doubtful.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 06, 2011 12:05 PM |
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I agree, that it's a bit doubtful, but if you consider the nature of the complaints, then they were, like, "they are quite fragile, and so their unlimited retal sucks; at the same time they miss the speed of the fragile sttack beasts they were in HoMM 5, to launch at least a devastating attack."
See, that's just a comparative analysis that has nothing to do with reality. It's like saying, "I would like to do X and Y with unit Z, because that's how it always was, but strangely it's not up to the task, so it's useless".
Instead of looking what the Dogs do NOT have, it might be helpful to check hat they DO have and what they need to get from the hero to support that.
This is not the right place to discuss a unit, nor the strategy and tactics and building strategies of a faction, but GENERALLY my impression is that people tend to be rash in their judgement. You can see that, when people dismissively start talking about how the game has been dumbed down - when in fact it has become so much more complex on a couple of levels ahe only thing that is dumb are the campaigns because they don't let you play, but lead you on a tight leash around.
This is a thread where the potential of the game is discussed, and that potential is massive.
Would, that the darn patch would be there, so that the most glaring bugs were corrected and you couldstart playing in earnest.
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted December 06, 2011 01:51 PM |
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Quote:
I agree, that it's a bit doubtful, but if you consider the nature of the complaints, then they were, like, "they are quite fragile, and so their unlimited retal sucks; at the same time they miss the speed of the fragile sttack beasts they were in HoMM 5, to launch at least a devastating attack."
You can see that, when people dismissively start talking about how the game has been dumbed down - when in fact it has become so much more complex on a couple of levels ahe only thing that is dumb are the campaigns because they don't let you play, but lead you on a tight leash around.
This is a thread where the potential of the game is discussed, and that potential is massive.
Would, that the darn patch would be there, so that the most glaring bugs were corrected and you couldstart playing in earnest.
I agree with everything here.
First Heroes each faction are very enjoyable to play+ no more random elements.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted December 06, 2011 03:41 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
You can for example Kamikaze with Breeder Bombs stealing mana off a Necro.
Maybe against a Magic hero and you won't really do much except if you throw half-to-all of your Breeders in consecutive waves. Necropolis doesn't need to cast many spells against Inferno, 2 or 3 will suffice. And then there is the Might hero who will hardly give a damn about the mana leech.
by the way, are might heroes used now?
I recall them being utter garbage in beta 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 06, 2011 03:46 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 15:47, 06 Dec 2011.
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Quote:
Instead of looking what the Dogs do NOT have, it might be helpful to check hat they DO have and what they need to get from the hero to support that.
Well, they have pretty good damage - and that's where their pros end. That's the problem - their good damage potential can't be exploited, at least not against a human player. Here are some examples from my experience:
- vs. Stronghold, the opponent places his Furies in front of the Cerberi or somewhere close but manages to get to them immediately and hit them. The result is 50-60% less Cerberi.
- vs. Haven, similar situation but this time the Glories are the attacking stack. Due to Light Vulnerability the losses are even greater.
- vs. everything which has a good ranged creature - the said ranged creature targets the Cerberi and halves the stack (at best, it could decimate it completely with Luck).
So what good is the high damage when the stack is crippled by one attack from the opponent? On top of that, they are not good candidates for Gating either due to their size. In the end you have corpses with big teeth. And that's not Necropolis to make use of them.
Quote:
by the way, are might heroes used now?
A lot. The direct-damage spells still suck though.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 06, 2011 04:34 PM |
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What are we talking now? Duel or real game?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 06, 2011 05:11 PM |
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted December 06, 2011 05:22 PM |
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I thought a lot about what's make, IMO, that Inferno feels weak for a lot of us. I think I have finally found the reason: the creature special abilities don't fit with their presumed role.
Cerberi: very low growth, standard HP for a melee unit = weak survivability... yet they have "unlimited retaliation", a good skill for RESILIENT units.
Succubi: standard shooters, and like all shooters they are killed by range attacks or simply blocked in melee... yet they have "taste of pain" skill which reduces only melee damages that Succubi don't suffer most of the time.
Breeders: mana drain only with range attacks, yet they are big creatures and thus easily blocked in melee.
Tormentors: they are relatively fast and maneuverable unit (since small), yet they can't move when they use "spikes" special skill.
Juggernauts: they are big and thus have a bad maveuverability, yet they have a "charge" skill very hard to use efficiently, especially since you can't choose your path on the battlefield.
While other factions have "brainless" creatures with skills compatible with their role on the battlefield, that's not the case for Inferno. Four Inferno creatures can be used two ways, but they are not as good as other creatures in both ways. For exemples:
-1a) Cerberi can protect Succubi against big creatures, in defensive stance, and use efficiently "unlimited retaliation", but in this case their good move and area of attack is useless, morever since they are in low number they can't last very long. 1b) Cerberi can be used like a rusher and attack asap to deal damage but in this case the "unlimited retaliation" is rather useless.
-2a) Succubi can be used like a standard shooter/caster, but in this case "taste of pain" is useless. 2b) Succubi have a good Move and thus can attack in melee and use "taste of pain", but in this case they deal only 50% damage (melee penalty).
-3a) Tormentors can be used as rushers/blockers, but in this case they will not have a lot of occasions to use "spikes". 3b) They can be used defensively and use their "spikes" sometimes, but in this case they will not use their good maneuverability.
-4a) Juggernauts can be use like rushers/heckler (sskill "intimidation" (I don't remember the name)) but the "charge" is really hard to use and thus you can often strike your own stacks. 4b) Juggernaut can be used defensively and attract enemy attacks, but in this case they will not use "charge".
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TWITCH|YouTube | NewArenas2023 MOD
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 06, 2011 07:33 PM |
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Maybe we should rename the thread "Potential" for Inferno to be the best faction in homm ev... oh wait, wasnt it the other way round?
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted December 06, 2011 07:36 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You can for example Kamikaze with Breeder Bombs stealing mana off a Necro.
Maybe against a Magic hero and you won't really do much except if you throw half-to-all of your Breeders in consecutive waves. Necropolis doesn't need to cast many spells against Inferno, 2 or 3 will suffice. And then there is the Might hero who will hardly give a damn about the mana leech.
by the way, are might heroes used now?
I recall them being utter garbage in beta
Well the tier 1 and 2 might skills are bad compared to magic, but their tier 3s are useful. I think m next might hero I'm gunna do some tier 2 mass spells and then save points and grab all the tier 3 might skills.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 06, 2011 08:47 PM |
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Did you try to start with immediately Rushing the Cerberi?
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 06, 2011 10:04 PM |
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@JJ:
yes, that WAS an hominem directed at you, that is why I ignored it.
But you still miss the whole point of the discussion and, after this many posts, I just lost hope. The point is not if you can get a decent play out of Inferno but if getting a decent or great play out of Inferno is as accessible as getting the same power from Necro. And it's clearly not, you said so yourself. It's not your skill that is in question but the game's general balance. I feel you won't accept this reasoning even now, so from now on I'm just gonna drop this.
I'll mention once again that I'd like to know why you think Sanctuary is the strongest faction.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 06, 2011 10:23 PM |
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From what i heard it has something to do with kappas high initiative and hit&run tactics. Havent played aginst that (lame) strategy (thankfully) so i cant say if thats really that good or not.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 06, 2011 11:15 PM |
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Quote:
@JJ:
yes, that WAS an hominem directed at you, that is why I ignored it.
But you still miss the whole point of the discussion and, after this many posts, I just lost hope. The point is not if you can get a decent play out of Inferno but if getting a decent or great play out of Inferno is as accessible as getting the same power from Necro. And it's clearly not, you said so yourself. It's not your skill that is in question but the game's general balance. I feel you won't accept this reasoning even now, so from now on I'm just gonna drop this.
I'll mention once again that I'd like to know why you think Sanctuary is the strongest faction.
The point is, *I* am happy that there is a challenge in the game, and I don't care that you have to think a bit before you can beat everything with Inferno. This wasn't different in H3 mind you. Why would everything be easy - you failed to mention that.
It MUST not be everything equally accessible - what would be the point? It has never been that way, and noone ever complained.
One reason why I think Sanctuary is the best faction currently, is the fact that the AI plays it decently.
Another is, that it has access to a lot of features I think not ok. Yet another is that a couple of creature effects seem very powerful currently, and that has nothing to do with strategy. Kappa Shoya Leap is devastating - AND they have very good initiative. Priestesses are extremely powerful. The whole water inhibition
is something no other faction has. It also merges well with the fact that their shooters deal air damage.
Then Kenseis. Everything can support them, the spring spirits, the priestesses, the hero, even the Kirins, and once they have picked a target...
Then their Reputation abilities.
Did you take a look at them?
Anyway. Let's wait for patch 1.2
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This thread is pages long: 
