|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
posted December 02, 2011 10:41 AM |
|
|
Thats what i wrote, now you can defend it effectively, unlike before 
You still can take mines, its just not as easy now. You have to capture a fort, whats wrong with that? There is a movement limitation teleporting cost move, alot of it. If you are going to teleport your hero every time some random scout comes you will lose badly because you will fall behind in xp, artifacts and other map objectives. Its not free , you pay with your move and time which is most valuable thing in homm but i guess people playing campaing and hitting next turn 100 times to grow their army cant know that.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 10:54 AM |
|
|
Yeah, talk to kodial, he has admitted about 10 times that he's not playing multi. Not to me though, I never measure the balance by some here/faction/whatever's performance during a campaign or against the AI in general.
So, who's gonna teleport every time when some scout enters his territory? The scouts are now dangerous against the main hero because of the stupid Mentoring thing which allows kamikaze attacks limited only be the amount of your gold but are nearly harmless against your economy because they have to capture the towns. So what stops you from hiring a secondary hero with small army who just sits behind the walls and occasionally teleports between the towns to mitigate such "attacks"? I.e. such approaches will rarely be attempted because they can easily be stopped, except if the scout moves with a big army.
|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 10:59 AM |
|
|
|
I admit that hit&run with mentoring heroes is lame and id rather have it removed but thats whole another topic. In h6 you can get a lot of joiners, much more then in previous parts. This allows you to create pretty formidable scouts.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 11:05 AM |
|
|
It's not, because using up your movement, town-portalling around your kingdom. breaking off the offense for every little threat, is BAD PLAY (for God's sake, and I cannot believe how people who supposedly "can play the game" are advocating this nonsense which works in campaigns only due to the scripting of the opposition).
For one thing it may take you two turns to be actually where it counts. This involves a big early warning area.
For a second you will always have to cancel your offensive actions.
What does that mean? It simply means, that a clever opponent (and a not so clever AI) can thwart you, by sending a hero good enough to be unbeatable with the forces of a freshly bought one and threaten you.
See, a hero who TPs into a threatened town/fortress CANNOT in the same turn move out and kill the threatening hero, if the latter keeps let's say 90% movement allowance distance. That threat, however, won't simply disappear; if your main hero doesn't want to be paralyzed, he has to find a way to deal with that threat AND be offensive at the same time.
The only thing TP is (or should be) guaranteeing is the fact that a halfway decent player won't lose because he was caught pants down in the open - a serious attacker may always be confronted with the full army strength.
In truth you are faced with a bundle of tasks:
a) deploy enough offensive strength to take out everything
b) establish a supply line to strengthen your main each week without losing too much time in the process (optimze the supply line with a view on speed and resources pinned for the purpose)
c) Groom a secondary and keep enough RESERVES to deal with small to medium threats;
d) once you have to actually commit the reserves (a threat has to be defended against); your situation becomes more serious; reserves, as long as they are not hired, can potentially be used to reinforce everything, even the main hero. Once all forces have been committed, it gets more difficult. All forces actually bought will have to be deployed: if everything is given to the main, the main will have to react to every threat. If not, you may be able to defend against mild threats without ordering the main back, but main's forces may not be enough to pull through offensively (meeting a fully armed guy), and he may STILL have to go back, if a threat appears the secondary cannot handle.
POSITIVELY spoken, if you can establish INITIATIVE, that is, if you can create serious enough threats for an opponent, you can paralyze or at least disrupt his actions.
By the way, I don't consider playing the AI, even if it's good, as a yardstick for satisfactory play. The finer points of the game are obviously lost when playing the AI only.
So all this is of course said with MP in mind. The play that concerns the AI is AI-related, not game-related.
I mean, do you really fall for a) AI can see the whole map and attacks soft spots by default; b) player is forced to cover everything with mindnumbingly stupid chains and warning system to thwart the dog-brain? Just because it takes a long time to count from 1 to 1000 it doesn't make things complex if you have to do so.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 11:14 AM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 11:17, 02 Dec 2011.
|
Quote:
I admit that hit&run with mentoring heroes is lame and id rather have it removed but thats whole another topic. In h6 you can get a lot of joiners, much more then in previous parts. This allows you to create pretty formidable scouts.
The point is that the defense is overly simplified. Your supply lines are rarely threatened, in fact you have to worry about your main army much more than about your income. OK, fine, that shifts the focus towards the battles but at the same time makes the claims that the strategical part is as rich as before pure nonsense.
Edit: just to be clear, in my opinion Heroes IV has the best logistical system in the series, even though it was imperfect in some regards.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 11:17 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I admit that hit&run with mentoring heroes is lame and id rather have it removed but thats whole another topic. In h6 you can get a lot of joiners, much more then in previous parts. This allows you to create pretty formidable scouts.
No, that's a good thing, actually. The fact that you can hire secondaries who are 5 levels below your main, means, that the better hero not only has an advantage in a direct confrontation, it means that he has the better secondaries as well.
However, the costs to hire a, say, level 8 secondary are enormous, since they also come with a bigger starting army.
That is in fact pretty good design move, because it adds to the pressure of the weaker player. I mean, we don't want to play multi with a bundle of special rules, because the game doesn't allow differences big enough to beat an opponent, no matter what he does or how he turtles.
If you can send a level 8 secondary to your opponent who's main is level 11, he'll have a problem, since he can hire a level 6 only. So the advantage of being behind walls gets ever smaller - it's better to duck behind them with a level 1 hero against a level 2 or 3 one, than to do it with a level 6 against a level 8 or 9 one.
So this feature actually avoids the bogging-down.
|
|
forest001
Known Hero
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 11:17 AM |
|
|
|
it doesn't make defence simplified, but makes it remotely possible against opponent with a brain...
|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 11:20 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Your supply lines are rarely threatened, in fact you have to worry about your main army much more than about your income.
It has always been like this, in all of my homm career i have never been defeated or crippled in economical way by my opponent. I maybe got annoyed from time to time when some random hero with 1 goblin appears and takes my gold mine, BIG DEAL. If you say those things are important to you you really dont know what you are talking about. Maybe in some home games with your kids or whatever you want to have fun and do crazy things but you just cant say that in standard game those things matter AT ALL.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 11:24 AM |
|
|
|
On what maps are you playing? Broken Alliance-like where you have a truckload of resources right next to your starting position? Ever tried resource-poor maps? No big deal... Hehe.
|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 11:26 AM |
|
|
Quote:
However, the costs to hire a, say, level 8 secondary are enormous, since they also come with a bigger starting army.
The cost of hiring new heroes are fine. High lvl secondary heroes are fine too. What is not fine is that dude couple lvls below you with 7 stacks of 1 unit attacks you, casts a powerful spell kills a lot of your units, dies, gets ressurected dirt cheap and does same thing over.
Quote:
On what maps are you playing? Broken Alliance-like where you have a truckload of resources right next to your starting position? Ever tried resource-poor maps? No big deal... Hehe.
you can check my record here www.toheroes.com plus many more games not ranked on many different maps
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 11:42 AM |
|
|
Quote:
you can check my record here www.toheroes.com plus many more games not ranked on many different maps
What does your ToH ranking has to do with this? I need you to explain me how are the resource sites irrelevant on poor maps. Let me give you an example - in Heroes III you had things like Mage Guilds (2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 of each resource depending on the level) and up to 20 of a given precious resource for the level 7 creature. How will you get these built if the opponent is constantly raiding your resource sites?
|
|
Karanshade
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 11:50 AM |
|
|
Quote:
The logistics is not only about flagging mines but also about effectively defending your territory using the limited movement of your heroes (or chains to bypass part of the latter). Now there is absolutely no logistics in the game because you don't have to defend your external dwellings, your resource supplies and in many cases even your towns. Or, if you want to defend the, just use the universally available town portal. That's no logistics, that's a mechanics-based cheat, worse than the chains.
No it s not. It just means that the noob who think he can invade my territory by sending one big hero solo is gonna get punished ,because he should have drawn a more subtle strategy.
(see previous post from jjoker or feluniozthing for hints about real strategy)
And chaining as a strategy ? seriously ? I m glad we got rid of that.
|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 11:50 AM |
|
|
|
You wanted to know maps i played on so i gave you adress where you can find that information. I tried to explain you that "raiding your resouces sites" exists only in your head, not in reality. If my opponent comes anywhere close to themm i either catch him and kill or take his castle or take some op artifacts from map and kill him afterwards. "raiding your resouces sites" is last priority, is not even worth the movement if i knew it stays there undefended(which is always the case lol)
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 11:53 AM |
|
|
LOL, some scout comes to take your mines and you kill him, then win?
Bah, forget it.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
posted December 02, 2011 11:54 AM |
|
|
Guys, this is about H6's potential to be the best game in the franchise, not about the effectiveness of raiding mines 
Please stay on topic.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 11:55 AM |
|
|
Quote:
The cost of hiring new heroes are fine. High lvl secondary heroes are fine too. What is not fine is that dude couple lvls below you with 7 stacks of 1 unit attacks you, casts a powerful spell kills a lot of your units, dies, gets ressurected dirt cheap and does same thing over.
What's the problem with that? If a dude a couple levels below you attacks your main he cannot do (a lot) more damage with spells that you can heal. This is a bigger problem for Inf, since there is no HEAL, but it still depends on what troops you actually put onto the BF in what stacks and what your opponent comes with. Also Resurrection of heroes is possible only one turn later.
In any case, no one-digit-level hero can do serious spell dmage to champion creatures, and even Elites are pretty resistant - it's just a matter of doing the right thing there.
|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 11:59 AM |
|
|
|
Apparently raiding mines is biggest problem for h6 to become best part of the series. I can understand that, especially after reading in gamespots review highlights that one of top three minuses of the game is people disconnecting from games often. I think that says it all about the quality of the game lol.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 12:11 PM |
|
|
Quote:
In any case, no one-digit-level hero can do serious spell dmage to champion creatures
That's partially true but as soon as the main hero gets to level 20+ and respectively starts mentoring level 15 kamikazes with Frenzy and Puppet Master, the game could end even without a fight between the two main heroes.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 12:19 PM |
|
|
That statement is too unreflected.
It STILL depend on what you deploy against such a hero. For example, with Inferno, such a thing would be rather pointless.
Also - do you know what a level 15 hero COSTS to hire?
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted December 02, 2011 12:23 PM |
|
|
|
Mentoring, again? It costs 1 skill point.
|
|
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
