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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted November 29, 2011 11:52 AM |
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Edited by kodial79 at 11:54, 29 Nov 2011.
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Quote:
Quote:
Why would I wanna do that?
Why would I go easy on it when I can overpower it with little to no effort? The thing is that it's not me who should hold back to face a challenge, but the enemy to be more challenging even when I attack them with what I got best.
This is as valid argument as "Why do I have to play on hard when there is Easy setting in the game" The answer is symple FOR THE CHALANGE and in my eyes this is what makes the difference between Chlidren gamers and Adult ones
Heh... That's got nothing to do with it. You can choose your difficulty settings according to your skill level but then you should do your best to beat the game. Going easy on it even at the hardest settings means the game is lacking and that's no fun.
@avalon
No, the Town Portals are useful for the fleeing enemies and so you won't need to travel all the way back when there is more troops to recruit.
Only in some skirmish maps do they help you to defend more effectively. On the majority of them though and most of the campaign maps, you don't have to worry about them cause all of the maps are just a single route.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 29, 2011 12:19 PM |
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True only for campaign maps.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted November 29, 2011 12:50 PM |
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Edited by kodial79 at 12:52, 29 Nov 2011.
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Yeah, skirmish maps are more diverse. There Town Portal gets a new meaning. Provides for an annoying cat and mouse game with you being the cat and your enemies the mouse.
Mind you though, I figured them out. I just take off my boots before I end turn. The enemy is tricked to think that he's out of reach and doesn't teleport away.
Pretty silly, isn't it?
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted November 29, 2011 12:58 PM |
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@kodial79
Leaving a weak secondairy hero in town and then once he is in range using town portal to get your main hero there also seems to do the trick. but yes it is pretty annoying how obviously the ai cheats and seems to know your exact movement points i noticed this too.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 29, 2011 01:06 PM |
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Not sillier than having a fully euipped hero in walking distance of a lightly armed bait. When plaing against the AI, statements like that are only about the AI, not about the game. Every AI is bound to have a predictable behaviour, since it's determined by known parameters, and once the behaviour pattern is clear, it's just a question of finding the right tin opener - if you want to.
Always.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted November 29, 2011 01:12 PM |
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Quote:
Not sillier than having a fully euipped hero in walking distance of a lightly armed bait. When plaing against the AI, statements like that are only about the AI, not about the game. Every AI is bound to have a predictable behaviour, since it's determined by known parameters, and once the behaviour pattern is clear, it's just a question of finding the right tin opener - if you want to.
Always.
Actually that's a legit tactic, baiting the opponent with an easy target. But taking off the boots because you know that AI can count your movement points and thinking you can't reach it, it's gonna stay, is, well... silly. Like an abuse or something.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 29, 2011 01:21 PM |
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It's a difference only for you.
In both cases you provide the AI with illusionary data. No difference.
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted November 29, 2011 01:33 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Not sillier than having a fully euipped hero in walking distance of a lightly armed bait. When plaing against the AI, statements like that are only about the AI, not about the game. Every AI is bound to have a predictable behaviour, since it's determined by known parameters, and once the behaviour pattern is clear, it's just a question of finding the right tin opener - if you want to.
Always.
Actually that's a legit tactic, baiting the opponent with an easy target. But taking off the boots because you know that AI can count your movement points and thinking you can't reach it, it's gonna stay, is, well... silly. Like an abuse or something.
In older Heroes it's actually WORST.
Let me explain:
To win against the AI, go away from your castle, don't defend it, he takes it and split his forces. Now destroy its hero AND take your town back...
The same can be said on older Heroes (esp. 2) with Dimension Door and +7 knowledge.
First you scout alot to reveal fog of war, then you DD with your main hero to catch him up. That was not always funny too...
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted November 29, 2011 01:59 PM |
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In Heroes 3 as far as I can remember, I was always laging behind the AI. They always seemed to have more troops and resources than I did and put them to good use.
I remember a lot of maps where my territories were being attacked from more than one side. Teleporting through one way exits and breaking through weakly defended garrisons and I had to be at the right place at the right time to effectively defend and never without casualties.
You're right, sometimes the best choice you had, was let them to take your town. I mean, it would be pointless to defend it and die anyway. But here's the thing. Did you ever need to retreat in Heroes VI? Were forced to abandon any of your towns? No, they can't press you so much anymore.
Very much harder than it is now, although I always won at the end. Mainly because of better co-ordination. Having them chase away bait heroes while my real forces were lurking nearby to ambush or retake lost ground.
But that required careful planning in both transversing your map and in splitting your army between different heroes.
Now I don't need to even break a sweat about it, I just rush in and that's all. Either they run to hide or they die. If someone manages to sneak past me, then I just teleport back to the town and defend it. No need to worry about my back, all of my army on my main hero can be anywhere at anytime.
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted November 29, 2011 07:46 PM |
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Quote:
In Heroes 3 as far as I can remember, I was always laging behind the AI. They always seemed to have more troops and resources than I did and put them to good use.
I played Heroes 3 multiple times within the past several months and can't remember feeling like I was short on resources past a month or so. Heroes 6 on the other hand seems to create a demand for a longer period.
I agree that the Heroes 6 AI needs some work, but this seems possible to ameliorate.
And earlier in this thread I wasn't saying that all I do is battle. You implied that this took away from the adventure map strategy. What I said is that everything I do now in the map has a feel of strategy to it. No longer do I have to spend 3/4 of my turn doing redundant tasks that have no real strategic value.
Do you forget about the dwellings in Homm3? Every single week they have to be visited in order to get the bonus creatures. This sounds nice, but it is not strategic. Anyone can have extra heroes consistently go around and collect creatures. Ultimately this type of maneuver took way too much time. It is one of my biggest issues with Civilization IV too. The end of the Civ4 games take WAY too long b/c most of the turn is spent doing things that should have shortcuts attached.
I like where the focus is on Heroes 6, and look forward to it being built upon.
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Coconut
Hired Hero
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posted November 30, 2011 12:56 AM |
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Edited by Coconut at 00:59, 30 Nov 2011.
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First Impressions
I'm still playing the demo that I downloaded a couple of days ago. I never played anything beyond Heroes I, II and III.
I'm still trying to make up my mind about Heroes VI, which is a main reason that I'm visiting this thread.
What struck me from playing the demo is that the gameplay never changed a lot from the early games.
I did notice some things, and I don't know if others agree:
Grafically it seems they went for realism, with realistic proportions for everything. The old games had all creatures, objects etc. bigger than the landscape. If you went by boat, it felt like a vast sea you were, your boat was more a symbol on a map than a real ship on the waves. Through the map-like design of the game world you had the feeling you were travelling vast distances.
Heroes VI is more photo-realism, so it now feels more like I'm in... someones back garden.
Creatures also feel different. The disregard for real proportions in the older games meant there was more room to show expressions and for the player to empathize with these creatures. In Heroes VI all beings are more supernatural, lots of flares and glow and effects, but I feel more at a distance from them.
I don't think photo-realism serves the game very well. The old games with their bright colours and a style less affected by real world perspectives did an excellent job of creating a charming fairy tale world. In character and how good it fitted the purpose they actually got it smack on right.
It's good artwork though, in Heroes VI, betraying refined techniques and professionalism. It's just that this is more like how every other game looks.
Whereas Gameplay is concerned, I haven't seen much of the old random elements yet; finding a random spell, level options depending on a roll of the dice... Is all surprise gone?
Speed depending on terrain - nice feature of the older games; is that gone as well or did I blatantly miss it?
There's an awful lot of healing and resurrecting going on. It used to be rare and special. Have they overdone it a bit?
I noticed a lot of unit features in tactical battles that were new to me, this looks interesting!
I don't know if there are more threads with interesting fan opinions on this game, I haven't checked that much yet. I'm often more interested in fan opinions than the professionally made reviews. If someone knows of an interesting opinion and has a link, I would be grateful!
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 30, 2011 10:46 AM |
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Quote:
You implied that this took away from the adventure map strategy. What I said is that everything I do now in the map has a feel of strategy to it. No longer do I have to spend 3/4 of my turn doing redundant tasks that have no real strategic value.
Do you know what logistics is? Supply lines? If you don't, check it out. There is no such thing in Heroes VI because the strategical part is simplified to the extreme (read - moronified) with these shared growth pools and external dwellings that need only to be flagged and not defended/visited on regular basis. I honestly have no idea what are you talking about with this "feel of strategy" thing.
Quote:
This sounds nice, but it is not strategic. Anyone can have extra heroes consistently go around and collect creatures. Ultimately this type of maneuver took way too much time.
So it is not "strategic" because it "took way too much time"?  WTF???
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted November 30, 2011 10:51 AM |
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I Think CP ws a bad descision. The logistic itself has been siplefied enought by the portals and AoC. And also, It is very confusing for new players as I have noticed.
A Very common question is "Why does only one of my towns produce unites"
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted November 30, 2011 01:15 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
This sounds nice, but it is not strategic. Anyone can have extra heroes consistently go around and collect creatures. Ultimately this type of maneuver took way too much time.
So it is not "strategic" because it "took way too much time"? WTF???
Dwellings in Homm3, and visiting them EVERY WEEK, was not strategic. Strategic implies requiring a decision or doing things in a unique order to optimize the results. Having spare heroes going to dwellings EVERY WEEK was not strategic b/c it did not require optimization or decisions. You simply did it. It's like saying clicking on your hero 30 times in a row to get 1 extra creature would be strategic b/c it yielded results.
Look, I agree that the town portal (and maybe even the area of control) could use some work. But I'm glad they took the redundancy out of other aspects. Redundancy that didn't require decisions.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted November 30, 2011 01:50 PM |
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So what is strategic then? Having them all available to wherever you are, right there and then? That's just for kids, if you ask me...
The creature dwellings and the weekly bonus buildings that you had to visit, added more depth to the gameplay. You needed to recruit secondary heroes to run these tasks and if they were in grey areas or behind enemy lines, you had to consider giving them a part of your army and items too to be able to protect themselves and even chase away the enemy's scouts if need be. More decisions, more thought required, more strategy.
Now you just recruit them all in one city, teleport your hero back and there you have it. Is this what you call Strategy?
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Pontifex
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 30, 2011 01:56 PM |
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Quote:
Now I don't need to even break a sweat about it, I just rush in and that's all. Either they run to hide or they die. If someone manages to sneak past me, then I just teleport back to the town and defend it. No need to worry about my back, all of my army on my main hero can be anywhere at anytime.
The whole game is structured around mindless rushing. The AI in HOMM VI has been deliberately designed to be ALL smoke & mirrors, a scripted knot of a nervous system with no brain (kinda like a shark). The on-and-off boots trick you mention is funny enough, but again, nothing beats the computer getting free creatures on the field. As I said elsewhere, it's clear they're not even trying anymore.
As to how this braindead AI compares with that of previous installments, you can go to an authorized source and check Quantomas' site if you haven't yet (easily one of the best news in a long time for true Heroes fans). One of the pages shows a good description of how the latest Heroes games have been consistently dumbed down in the AI department. He's trying to bring HOMMV's AI to HOMM3 levels and is making good progress. Version J has still some quirks to be ironed out (whirlpools, for instance) but the computer's performance is already leaps and bounds over that of vanilla TotE.
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Pontifex
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 30, 2011 02:01 PM |
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There is no such thing in Heroes VI because the strategical part is simplified to the extreme (read - moronified)
Moronified - I like it 
But really, I'm all for streamlining but there comes a point where you question why they don't go the whole nine yards and remove things like movement points altogether, and create zone-based Risk-like maps. The recruitment pool abstraction and the inclusion of areas of control seem to be a move in that direction. Maybe there's nothing strategic about galloping around on your little horsie... 
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Coconut
Hired Hero
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posted November 30, 2011 02:03 PM |
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Dwellings in Homm3, and visiting them EVERY WEEK, was not strategic.
No, that's called micro management. I call it tedious micro management.
The problem could be circumnavigated by a map maker. You are a map maker, Mike80D? You know about Grayface's expanded editor? With that you can make any dwelling look like any other dwelling.
You can make a creature dwelling that only gives a certain amount of units once. You put a seer's hut in, give it the appearance of a creature dwelling, let the quest be giving X money for X creatures of the type associated with that dwelling, you now have a creature dwelling that you will only visit once. Of course the amount of units will be an amount that will make a difference to your game, not like the tiny weekly amounts you got from the standard dwellings in Heroes III.
Your only limitation is that the amount of seer's hut is limited per map, I think you can only put in 40 or so, a number which is surprisingly easy to reach.
Of course you can say I'm now not talking about the regular game anymore, but about something including a fan made modification that only appeared when 100's of maps had alrady been made. That's right, but this is relevant for a map maker in 2011 and it's underused, so I felt it made sense to mention.
Good map makers should always know about the flaws in a game system or flaws in the AI, and how best to compensate for that.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 30, 2011 02:37 PM |
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Quote:
The creature dwellings and the weekly bonus buildings that you had to visit, added more depth to the gameplay. You needed to recruit secondary heroes to run these tasks
Ok, you just lost the last vestiges of credibility. If that's your idea of depth of gameplay...
I wonder which skirmish maps you've played on what difficulty in Heroes 6?
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted November 30, 2011 03:08 PM |
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Edited by kodial79 at 15:11, 30 Nov 2011.
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Quote:
Quote:
The creature dwellings and the weekly bonus buildings that you had to visit, added more depth to the gameplay. You needed to recruit secondary heroes to run these tasks
Ok, you just lost the last vestiges of credibility. If that's your idea of depth of gameplay...
I wonder which skirmish maps you've played on what difficulty in Heroes 6?
I'm playing the campaign. I've only played A Bridge Too Far which is a tiny map, and the Broken Alliance. Those two I beat in normal difficulty.
I've been playing another map, I forget its name, which is of the biggest size. I'm playing hard difficulty but I'm only four or five weeks in the game. So far, so good...
As I'm playing Necro on that map and already equipped myself with this item that doesn't allow enemys to retreat, I've been killing anyone that I came across. I have invaded Haven's territories already and doesn't look like anyone can stop me.
In Broken Alliance, I made use of secondary for the very silly purpose of capturing their undefended towns. While my main hero was teleporting from one town to the other, defending them. My secondaries were without army. They didn't need it cause no ever defended towns there. Some of them may teleport back in town and kill my secondary if they were within their range but so what? I recruited them for free, or almost free. In normal difficulty the map was ridiculously easy, only tedious at times when the enemy heroes didn't seem to know which way to go and they were just spending their turns idle serving no purpose to their factions at all, which forced to chase them myself and they just waited there, they weren't even teleporting or taking advantage somehow of my leaving the towns undefended (the AI taking advantage of anything? yeah, right, whatever...). It was more of a chore to chase them down than anything else, they could as well surrender and save me time. In any case, no challenge.
I had thought that this was the best map in the game so I started with that one. If that's the best indeed, then there's no hope.
Oh now that I'm talking about it. Is it possible that the growth rate bug hit the AI too? In that other map I'm playing now. The Haven heroes don't seem to recruit any creatures. Well, it's more likely that with their messed up AI, they just don't recruit, bug or not.
That's for the skirmish maps. As for the campaign, well, it's just a walk in the park from start to finish with no hurry, no problems (besides the many bugs), all army under one hero without even caring to look back.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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