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fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 08, 2012 11:06 PM |
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Edited by fauch at 23:07, 08 May 2012.
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well, most people would probably not mind earning more than a million per year and being taxed 75% 
it seems it is 45% over 150000 per year?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 08, 2012 11:10 PM |
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Don't believe what they say when earning 1200/month.
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fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 08, 2012 11:17 PM |
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you think they wouldn't like earning over a million?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 09, 2012 09:35 AM |
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75% is an overkill, I doubt that even half of that is realistic but allowing hundreds, even thousands of percents of profit go to the people who "honestly earned it" and to nobody else is even more moronic than taking most of it and re-distributing it among the rest of the society. Face it - if robbery due to greed is considered normal, then robbery for welfare purposes should be normal as well - the difference is that in the first case the robbers are private entities and in the second - the state. The other difference is that in the second case more people benefit from the robbery. Which of these two is achievable is another matter.
I don't find socialism wrong on moral base - we're robbed all the time, for example they are buying useless weapons of mass destruction obviously from our money - if the cash is taken for the poor, it would at least do some good
however, in practice, the bureaucratic machine is so powerful that a big lot of that money ends up fueling it and the payments of legions of bureaucrats working in it. Which kills the whole idea up, and makes socialism a waste of time.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 09, 2012 09:46 AM |
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if robbery due to greed is considered normal, then robbery for welfare purposes should be normal as well
I don't understand this argument. If "robbery due to greed" refers to companies lying to their workers or customers, using force on them, or using/influencing the government to do it for them, it makes more sense to support the enactment and enforcement of policies that prevent it and punish those who do it. For example, if there's a rich CEO whose company locks up its workers and refuses to pay them overtime, it makes sense to go to court against the company and fine it heavily. But taxing the CEO more highly instead makes as much sense as taxing a robber instead of punishing them. Taxes also affect rich people who haven't done anything wrong - because if in "robbery by greed" you include profit maximization without the use of force and fraud, you're including something that isn't robbery and is just free association and voluntary exchange.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 09, 2012 10:34 AM |
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I'm not going to argue with you about this, your idea of "free exchange" is just as idealistic as the "rich people got rich on their own" thing, hence the whole "discussion" is doomed.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted May 12, 2012 01:03 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 13:16, 12 May 2012.
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Being taxed at 75% means every day you work, from the 1st of January to the 31th of September, 24h/24h, all you earn is redistributed to people you don't even know. Why would rich people want to live in such place? They have the opportunity to move elsewhere, and they already warned they will. In the end you will get less income and employ.
It was a purely political and opportunist decision, destinate to unseat Sarkozy and feed with low/medium classes anger and frustration. Since 1960, there were several socialists governments, and they got the idea only now?
Then I ask you, how would you solve the problem of rich vs poor?
Is it ok that 99% of the world wealth is controlled by the rich? Is that right? Is that healthy for our lives?
If you would remove 100% of the immigrants, would your problems be solved?
One thing I dont understand is that there are very abstruse laws about immigration. How do you have an immigration problem?
I dont question the wealth of 99% of the rich,only the point that they are too rich,way too rich. Why should few control that much wealth?
And now we have an issue here. Indivudal freedom vs a rational limit of wealth.
Its quite funny, sardonic humor that is, that life on earth is not affordable.
It is not like we can go into some forest and start living there and separate from society. Is that possible? Not for everybody.
If it were possible to choose between to live on this planet or not get born, what would be your choice with 200$ a month?
But then, we have the prime principle of nature's cruelty here aka "Only the strong survive". Its somewhat demeaning and cruel above all.
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moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted May 12, 2012 04:29 PM |
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@ Doomforge:
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I really don't want to live here.
I would say "Come live over here" but over here in the Netherlands we seem to have a little clash between people on one side who say polish people are causing all kinds of problems with anti-social behavior, theft, and drunk driving, and on the other side people who say it is politically incorrect and discriminating to address those issues xD
Maybe you should find smarter friends, or at least try to enlighten them. It's not hard to argue it's just stupid to generalize people.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 12, 2012 07:43 PM |
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Then I ask you, how would you solve the problem of rich vs poor?
I am a bit simplistic on this, I don't believe in the automatic right to luxury just because you live. You want to have a decent life? Work, have ideas, create, insist, for those having great discipline, life is never unfair. For the others waiting wealth from sky, means they control nothing, all they can is complain.
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moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted May 12, 2012 08:50 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Then I ask you, how would you solve the problem of rich vs poor?
I am a bit simplistic on this, I don't believe in the automatic right to luxury just because you live. You want to have a decent life? Work, have ideas, create, insist, for those having great discipline, life is never unfair. For the others waiting wealth from sky, means they control nothing, all they can is complain.
And what did those born in rich families do to deserve such wealth, perhaps you could explain that to me?
Surely by your logic and belief in fairness you would suggest if someone dies their wealth should return to the society they live in as a whole?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 12, 2012 09:12 PM |
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And what did those born in rich families do to deserve such wealth, perhaps you could explain that to me?
Why should we care about those lucky ones? They have their life, we have own.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted May 12, 2012 09:36 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Then I ask you, how would you solve the problem of rich vs poor?
I am a bit simplistic on this, I don't believe in the automatic right to luxury just because you live. You want to have a decent life? Work, have ideas, create, insist, for those having great discipline, life is never unfair. For the others waiting wealth from sky, means they control nothing, all they can is complain.
Hmm, I think in the oppositive way. Life is as fair as we can make it.Otherwise,its all about "Unfairness".
How disciplined and how knowledgeable you are has nothing to do with wealth. The people who have a lot of money know a lot of people,they know the "Insider" info that your average layman does not. Information is power.
Life inherently is unfair.
Perhaps you should live in a corrupt state and see there how far you come up with discipline. It really aint different in europe,except that it is less pronounced.
That said, your idea seems a bit unrealistic and idealistic. The society we live in is not all about creativity or discipline.The least i can tell you is that,from my persective, its about something else.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 12, 2012 10:39 PM |
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Abilities, knowledge, creativity and intelligence must be heavily trained before your 18s. Usually they are better trained in such corrupt states because the wish and parental influence are stronger.
Democracy has its important backsides as well when it comes to discipline.
As interesting detail, the majority of russian, polish and chinese people we get here in France are almost all brilliant and already formed. When they come, they know their job and usually are top hired.
Such immigration, I feel happy about.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 13, 2012 11:34 AM |
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Actually, you are born with certain intelligence, creativity, and obviously you are born either rich or poor. I'd say that becoming rich is merely using the tools you've been provided. If you're born poor, stupid (or average in intelligence) and not very creative, without some money-making talent, nothing will ever make you rich.
Sad truth. It's all decided before you're born. The inequality of people is in the nature of people itself and cannot be fixed by socialism or communism - this merely "fixes" the effects of the problem, not the source of the problem in a highly unfair way.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted May 13, 2012 11:44 AM |
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Actually, you are born with certain intelligence, creativity, and obviously you are born either rich or poor. I'd say that becoming rich is merely using the tools you've been provided. If you're born poor, stupid (or average in intelligence) and not very creative, without some money-making talent, nothing will ever make you rich.
Sad truth. It's all decided before you're born. The inequality of people is in the nature of people itself and cannot be fixed by socialism or communism - this merely "fixes" the effects of the problem, not the source of the problem in a highly unfair way.
But why should these rich people be rich simply because they were born.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 13, 2012 12:04 PM |
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And why are tall people tall?
Nature is unfair by default. We can't fix it so far. Trying to "fix" one of the aspects (and in a lame way) through socialism sucks.
Well, with cash, you can at least migrate to US and work at three or four jobs at once to get rich, even though you sacrifice your life in return. With height, you're just screwed
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted May 13, 2012 01:11 PM |
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Nature is unfair by default. We can't fix it so far. Trying to "fix" one of the aspects (and in a lame way) through socialism sucks.
Being born tall =/= being born rich
You still didn't give me a valid reason why someone should be born rich.Oh and fyi, "nature" doesn't hold up here.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 13, 2012 01:53 PM |
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Well, your parents (or ancestors) were born with either talent or superior intelligence which made them rich in the first place, and you're benefiting from that as their offspring, ergo, you're rich because of the nature's inequality.
That's just how the world goes
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 13, 2012 02:30 PM |
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you can develop your talent, your creativity, your intelligence, but that doesn't mean you have to use them to become rich and powerful.
what if you are born a psychopath? makes it much easier to become rich and powerful since emotions and empathy will hardly get in the way. you can exploit people and you won't even wonder whether it is moral.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted May 13, 2012 03:31 PM |
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Well, your parents (or ancestors) were born with either talent or superior intelligence which made them rich in the first place, and you're benefiting from that as their offspring, ergo, you're rich because of the nature's inequality.
That's just how the world goes
Except you already know that is bullsnow. Lets talk about Nicolas Telsa: A genius among geniuses.
Did he die rich? No. Who died rich? Edison, the snow who scammed people for a living. Its not about talent, its all about luck. If Academia had been bigger, Telsa would have gotten a job as a proffesor and likely achived more.
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