|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
posted May 13, 2012 04:02 PM |
|
|
Scamming people also requires talent, though it's not something to brag about obviously. Do you think it's so easy to build fame based on lies? 
And that talent is obviously gene-driven.
Also, if Tesla lived today, he would be incredibly rich, of that I'm sure. Times have changed a bit.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
|
|
posted May 13, 2012 07:39 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Why should we care about those lucky ones? They have their life, we have own.
Because "feeling poor" has little to do with what you actually have, but with what you have compared to your neighbour.
____________
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted May 13, 2012 08:13 PM |
|
|
I believe that poorness is when you can't feed yourself. All the extra is luxury. If you can't afford a video game, a car, vacancy trip, it doesn't mean you are poor, it means you aren't rich.
This is a weird way to keep looking at neighbor and compare. Suppose that socialism redistribute wealth, and then? It is one time event. The rich people will find endless ways to avoid this for a second time, move on, hide income, change laws, unseat the president and so on, they have the tools for.
It recalls me that famous chinese proverb: “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime"
What people need is to learn to live by themselves, not constantly compare and ask for help around. Capitalism is going to stay.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted May 13, 2012 09:03 PM |
|
|
"capitalism" is a really stupid label for a natural way of living, honestly.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
|
|
posted May 13, 2012 09:15 PM |
|
|
How is it in any way natural?
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
|
|
Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
|
|
posted May 13, 2012 09:22 PM |
|
|
Quote:
How is it in any way natural?
It's not.
In nature you kill the previous owner and take what you want.
____________
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted May 13, 2012 10:34 PM |
|
|
I do not mean natural as if "by the laws of nature", I'm not that kind of guy
Natural -> getting what you want
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 13, 2012 11:22 PM |
|
|
It's a very simple way of looking at things: poor people don't have enough wealth, rich people have enough wealth to lose some and still live comfortably, so let's take the wealth from the rich and give it to the poor. It's simple - and wrong. First, why should the rich be forced to give to the poor? Why is the need of the poor a claim on somebody else's wealth? Second, it doesn't address the causes of poverty at all. Among the poor, there is a disproportionate amount of destructive status-seeking behavior ("I won't take that low-paying job because it's beneath my dignity!"), low conscientiousness, and single parenthood. A variety of government mistakes make it worse - the education system in ghettos is bad, the welfare state enables many vices that would otherwise ruin their lives, (in the US) the War on Drugs leads to the unjust punishment and imprisonment of many poor people, and it is well-known that the police are biased against ethnic minorities, which are disproportionally poor. It's not entirely correct to blame the poor for poverty, but that's not a justification for redistribution.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted May 14, 2012 12:05 AM |
|
|
|
Seriously, you should really stop reading poetry.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 14, 2012 12:33 AM |
|
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted May 14, 2012 12:59 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Seriously, you should really stop reading poetry.
Maybe you should start reading whatever poetry he's reading; you might learn something.
Seriously, what part of the argument to you object to: the contention that the wealthy have no obligation to give their assets to the poor, or the contention that government redistribution of wealth doesn't help solve the causes of poverty, or something else perhaps?
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted May 14, 2012 01:09 AM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 01:12, 14 May 2012.
|
The re-distribution is generally ineffective but not as a concept but as an execution.
As for the rest - please provide me with statistical information on the amount of people displaying "destructive status-seeking behavior, low conscientiousness", etc., i.e. real numbers and their well-grounded negative impact on the economy (with figures and so on) and then we'll talk. Until then - read your poetry in private.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted May 14, 2012 01:24 AM |
|
|
Socialists are very healthy people (Strauss-Kahn was top choice first) who care only about electorate. Kinda Obama's gay whirligig, Hollande took the opportunity to seduce poor and naive large masses of people, gain votes and unseat Sarkozy.
I liked the former president because he had a global vision of foreign economies and politics. He made it clear that one nation problems can not be solved without healing first the external backbone and he did his best in that area. Now I am not sure what will be going on.
Giving to Hollande the presumption of innocence, but he has no experience at all, fact. And the others around are like sharks, I am afraid they will eat him alive.
On topic, Serbian border town protesting against immigration. I had no idea that area was concerned as well.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 14, 2012 01:50 AM |
|
|
Zenofex:
How is redistribution "effective as a concept"?
Here.Quote:
[T]he single mothers the authors interview complain most consistently about their male partners' infidelity, which often leads to the birth of children outside the relationship. But infidelity is only one factor impeding the formation of lasting unions. The women also describe a range of other shortcomings, including poor impulse control, violence, financial profligacy, drug use, and poor work effort. These women's observations strongly suggest that their failure to marry, despite a professed desire to do so, is a function of their men's anti-social behavior... Becoming a single parent also seriously interferes with work and education, and saddles a woman with onerous responsibilities that are difficult to bear alone.
More.Quote:
A thirtysomething Wal-Mart cashier cannot reasonably expect that his hard work will be rewarded with consistent raises and promotions, terminating, perhaps, in a solid management job. Thus the new lower class is deprived of opportunities for engaging in long-term (or even medium-term) cultural strategies. Understandably, then, they turn their attention to short-term strategies, competing for immediate rewards and ephemeral boosts in status and self esteem.
And more.Quote:
Conflicts over money do not usually erupt simply because the man cannot find a job or because he doesn't earn as much as someone with better skills or education. Money usually becomes an issue because he seems unwilling to keep at a job for any length of time, usually because of issues related to respect. Some of the jobs he can get don't pay enough to give him the self-respect he feels he needs, and others require him to get along with unpleasant customers and coworkers, and to maintain a submissive attitude toward the boss.
Understandably, low conscientiousness and status-seeking behavior are difficult to quantify on such a scale, but here's what I found that points to them.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted May 14, 2012 02:46 AM |
|
|
Quote:
How is redistribution "effective as a concept"?
It's supposed to rectify, at least partially, the issue with the uneven resource allocation inside the society which is the source of all kinds of instabilities since the civilization exists. That's the idea at least.
Quote:
Understandably, low conscientiousness and status-seeking behavior are difficult to quantify on such a scale, but here's what I found that points to them.
The question is what does that prove? Even if these observations are 100% correct and true for 100% of the economical entities which they are supposed to evaluate - things that you are yet to provide some solid evidences about and to link them to certain economical inefficiencies - how do you suggest to change that? Advise the people to change their mentality and behaviour so it can fit the prescriptions of the theory (which is yet to be empirically tested, for example workers to agree to work for a salary below certain regulated minimum en masse)? Sounds too much like the general approach of the communism, except that in this case it supports the current status quo and doesn't want to change it (which is pretty convenient).
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 14, 2012 06:08 AM |
|
|
Quote:
It's supposed to rectify, at least partially, the issue with the uneven resource allocation inside the society which is the source of all kinds of instabilities since the civilization exists.
Be more specific. What "issue" are you talking about? And what "instabilities"?
Quote:
how do you suggest to change that?
- Reduce the welfare state. This will reconnect people with the consequences of their actions. If you refuse to take a job because of "pride", you will go hungry unless you already have money (or someone willing to help you).
- Improve education. This means more than just teaching people history and such more effectively - it means teaching them about how life works. If you have two kids before you're 20, you'll be miserable, so don't have kids that young. If you get an education in a reasonably good field, you'll have a good chance at a decently-paying job. If you drop out of high school, you'll probably be flipping burgers.
- If your own attitude is wrong, change it. Sometimes I see people making excuses for others, saying something like, "He's poor and didn't have good opportunities." It doesn't matter how poor you are, beating your girlfriend is never a good idea. Don't make excuses - they should've known better. Poverty is no excuse for crime.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
|
|
posted May 14, 2012 11:01 AM |
|
|
|
I seriously doubt that people in general would reject a job out of pride. Maybe high and some middle class people but never lower class. Personally I am lazy but I still desire a job because of my pride and not necessarily a glorious one.
|
|
xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 14, 2012 11:24 AM |
|
|
What if you can't get a job?
Or maybe you're sick and have a very hard time finding one.
Every person in the world has the right to live a decent life.
Even thoae who can not get jobs though obviously, they always try to get one or attend an education or something. Of course in the US (I think), education actually costs money so people in the US do not have basic equal opportunities to get a good life.
|
|
fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 14, 2012 12:06 PM |
|
|
Quote:
If you refuse to take a job because of "pride", you will go hungry unless you already have money (or someone willing to help you).
they already have to offer a job. from time to time they will tell you to send a resume to a specific company, but it's up to them if they want to hire you.
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted May 14, 2012 12:43 PM |
|
|
Xenofax said:
Quote:
Seriously, you should really stop reading poetry.
Well said.
Xerox said:
Quote:
What if you can't get a job?
This. High unemployment is the bane of neoliberal crackism.
____________
|
|
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
