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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 17, 2012 04:53 PM |
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Quote:
Even many of my own friends relentlessly bash "commies" and "Arabs", considering them the scourge of the world.
I don't know about commies, but when you have 10 millions muslims in your country-and quickly growing-, I would be scared if no one thinks they are potential huge threat. Poland does not have them, I see no reason to worry, they are all in France or UK right now. And we feel it every day, painful.
Merah: his father was allowed to sue french state because his son was killed by police. While the best move would have been to send his entire family asap in Alger, for extreme failing on integration and education of own kids. Crazy world.
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Era II mods and utilities
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fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 17, 2012 05:00 PM |
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Edited by fauch at 17:01, 17 Apr 2012.
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I also read that he killed himself by jumping from the window or something 
and he didn't want to be caught anyway.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 17, 2012 05:02 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Also note that politicians turn blind eye and pretend there isn't a problem.
But that's true for everyone, not just Poland.
While its true for everyone, lets look at another problem that exists in Poland: Braindrain.
The educated youth realizes there is nothing left to do, and flees the country, taking along with them their diploma. The less educated get into a large set of contact network, and works in some country where the wage level is significantly higher just so they can send home some money like a 3rd world country.
As a conclusion we can draw, Poland is worse. And the level of extremism, and people who feels disempowered will perhaps join the extremist rampage because there is nothing more to do about it. The same applies in a lot of older communist countries, they left communism for a liber rightwing economic politic with extremely bad longterm sideffects, and a public infastructure that makes ghetto problems extremely visible.
Lexxan: If you where not too blinded by senseless hatred, i would say words. I would say you are a bigger problem, as you are a person who refuses to aknowledge a human as a human.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 17, 2012 05:06 PM |
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The situation in Poland isn't far from the one in Romania, I can tell you that.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted April 17, 2012 06:05 PM |
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Quote:
Lexxan: If you where not too blinded by senseless hatred, i would say words. I would say you are a bigger problem, as you are a person who refuses to aknowledge a human as a human.
No offense of anything, but that kind of logic is what enabled Breivik to prepare his actions. (which are, no matter how you twist it, INHUMAN)
It is the same logic which now enables him to voice his thoughts on NATIONAL TELEVISION, relish in the attention he gets (giving him exactly what he wants) and put on this entire retarded spiel on how he is an HEROIC underdog and a lamentable victim of that awful MARXIST society.
It is the same kind of logic that will keep him from the death penalty, which is arguably deserves.
Don't get me wrong though. I actually admire the open line of thinking and freedoms that many Scandinavian Countries share. They show a tremendous amount of respect for human life and stature that isn't really found anywhere else in the world.
But there are limits. Some people simply don't merit respect, even acknowledgement as a human being due to the inhuman actions they comitted, the shameless boasting about said actions and the self-victimization/self-heroization which follows once they inevitably get attention for their beyond despicable actions.
Now, I know just as much as the next person that "hate" isn't any better than unconditional and universal, if not foolhardy and naive forgiveness. My feelings on Breivik aren't "Hate" though. I feel complete and utter revulsion for him. I am disgusted that I am of the same species that he is. I am disgusted by his actions and how he uses his ideology as a cloak to hide himself behind and make himself appear like a "modern day crusader" instead of the petty, child-killing, cowardly murderer he actually is.
As for my own views on Immigration, Socialism and what not, I'll gladly share them if you are interested. In fact, i'll do so anyway.
I don't think this should be a surprise, but I expressed hatred towards Socialists on multiple occasions? Again, I tend to use the term "hate" quite liberally, and, again in this context, incorrecly. I do not "Hate" socialists. I am however very disillusioned and contemptuoustowards most of them.
Mostly because I think Socialism has become a paradox of itself. It has devolved from an inspirational, equality-preaching ideology, to an elitist, sanctimonious clique which treats every person of different opinions with condescending contempt (if not worse). Ever since the general European opinion has drastically shifted to the "left" side of the spectrum after the Second World War ended, Socialism has been thriving and assumed a great position of power within nearly every country in Europe, or even "the Western World" if you would like me to be more specific it (to include Australia, South America and Canada). Henceforth, most socialist parties have become powerridden and afraid of change, since it meant that they would lose the priviliges they hoarded in the meantime. (note that this is pretty much the POLAR opposite of what the ideology of "Socialism" is supposed to stand for). Ironically, they have become conservative, opposing change, which would come in more centrist, or even right-wing political parties. Needless to say, I am abhorred by this alarming turn of events
In Belgium, Socialism is at its very worst. Both socialist partist have become increasedly arrogant about their elitist, belittling behaviour, not only towards other parties, but also towards their own voters, treating them like ignorant children. I may be bloating it a bit, but it you pay attention to how they act in public, and what they say, you'll notice that Belgian Socialists tend to talk in a scripted manner, purposefully code words that may subconscieously entice positive feelings in the minds of unattentive viewers and listeners. They only way what they know the public will like, rather than what they actually stand for. They also tend to not appear whenever bad news is spread that relates to them, their party or the cities they mayor, making sure the public opinion doesn't associate these events with them. These are the kinds of crafty, dirty tricks Socialists depend upon to garner votes, rather than competence and ability.
Obviously, a lot of people are SICK of them, and I myself am disgusted by their actions. Not even close to the levels of revolt I feel towards Breivik, but to point things out: I am not a fan of Socialism, or even Marxism, and I consider Communism to be a dictatorial form of Socialism, which... I don't even need to elaborate on (this write up is long enough anyways)
I do not know the exact situation in Norway. As far as I know, Norwegian Socialists are much, much more superior to Belgian ones, mostly because I imagine them being more of a "Left-wing party" that opposes the Centrist and Right-wing ones, rather than a party that masqerades themselves as progressive and socialist, while actually being neither. In other words, I see the Norwegian Socialist Party as something closer to Britain's Labour than the French Parti Socialiste.
Now, on immigration: I know several immigrants and children of immigrants. Antwerp, my hometown -prides- herself on being multiculturally diverse. I personally don't think that is necessarily the right way to handle immigrants. While diversity itself is desirable, any immigrant should imo agree to three points before being giving Belgian Citizenship
1) Learn the national language of the region you plan on residing in.
2) Contribute something of worth to society (ie: get a job and make money so you can pay taxes)
3) Adapt themselves to the culture of the host country so they can become a part of the country, rather than being merely a "permanent guest in a foreign land". Note that this doesn't mean renouncing the culture, religion and habits they grew up with, unless of course these are banned in the country they immigrated to.
These points are IMPORTANT, not just to immigrants and second-generationers, but also the natives. Integrating with society is -imho- merely logical if you want to live in the country.
Obviously, children of reguralized immigrants born in this country I don't consider immigrants. They'll spend their entire lives in the country, will know the culture and will be a part of it, as long as they want to be. As I stated earlier, the "want" part is important, and applies to any citizen within any country, immigrant or native. Do you WANT to be part of the society you, as a citizen, are expected to be a part of?
Cohesion with society is an extremely important thing to have, as without it one becomes delusioned and dishelved. Which brings us back to where we started: Anders Behring Breivik. A man who not only REFUSED to be a part of society, but maliciously wanted to destroy it by cowardly murdering teenagers of a political stream he disagreed with.
It also makes him a hypocrite.
He deliberately isolated himself from society, refusing to be a part of it... and decided to change it, because for some reason, he still cared.
However, instead of being a part of society and constructively trying to change it (and let's be honest here: Democracy IS the most effective way to do so), he opted to destroy it due to being "too caring" (ack you have no idea how much it kills me to write it that way).... all under a nonchalant air of being "o v e r it".
Conclusion: What a loathesome individual.
I think we can discuss this matter endlessly, and I feel I just *did*, so I'll leave it at that. But at least you know where my rationale is coming from, even if most of this post is off-topic rambling of a foolhearthy, young 22-year old from a country known for being boring beyond belief.
Finally, I do wish the people of Norway a lot of strength to get through this crisis. I personally refuse to listen to any of his shenaginians, but it must be very hard for Norway to hear him boast and triumph over the corpses of her fallen children.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted April 17, 2012 06:16 PM |
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But there are limits. Some people simply don't merit respect, even acknowledgement as a human being due to the inhuman actions they comitted, the shameless boasting about said actions and the self-victimization/self-heroization which follows once they inevitably get attention for their beyond despicable actions.
Yeah, cultures and humanity is a marvelous wonder. I find it so very intriguing that you can post this and then continue with a very intelligent and quite insightful post. Remind me, Lexxan; where are you from? I cannot recall and your profile says cyberspace.
As for Breivik... I'd love to have a chat with him. A civil chat, hopefully, if I could do that. It would be such an excellent test for my intellect and self control, as well as a very... broadening experience.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted April 17, 2012 06:44 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 18:45, 17 Apr 2012.
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Quote:
Remind me, Lexxan; where are you from? I cannot recall and your profile says cyberspace.
It is in the write-up. Didn't you read it?
but yay @ the wonderful feedback anyways ^__^
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted April 17, 2012 06:48 PM |
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Oh, how could I miss that? I did read it all after all.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted April 17, 2012 06:50 PM |
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Shares being Shares <3
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted April 17, 2012 06:54 PM |
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All I want to say to Lexxan on the Breivik subject has already been said in the original Explosion in Oslo thread.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted April 17, 2012 07:12 PM |
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Well... I am me, so that is to be expected, is it not? 
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 17, 2012 08:13 PM |
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I am not a fan of Socialism, or even Marxism, and I consider Communism to be a dictatorial form of Socialism, which... I don't even need to elaborate on
And here I was, thinking that only the Americans are that ignorant on the matter.  The Marxist type of communism (there's also Leninist type, Christian type, anarchist type and many other) is something that has never existed and never will in its pre-defined (by Marx and Engels) form. It views the socialism as a middle and immature stage which has to be outgrown economically and psychologically on the way to the communism which is not the aim of the social evolution but yet another step to the ever more mature society. Marx himself views the socialists whose aim is the socialism and the socialism only as short-sighted, irresolute potential collaborationists with the capitalists and ultimately as non-revolutionaries. The communism itself is a stage of the social evolution when the society is self-sufficient, doesn't need the state any more (the state construct gradually dissolves and the socially-responsible individuals govern themselves) and produces enough goods to satisfy the needs of everybody. Sounds sweet in theory, the practice is another story but in the end the XX century USSR-and-friends dictatorships are certainly not communism. The scientific term is *state socialism* (which is not the same thing as the *socialism* in general).
On-topic: such problems usually become more severe during economic crises and I'm a bit surprised that Europe has managed to remain more or less calm since 2009 (probably because the EU powerhouses perform well, given the circumstances). As for Poland - well, I guess they associate the "communism" with the Russians (not good really), the rest is just loads of ignorance and hate needing direction. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the figures by the way - one of the biggest Bulgarian news sites is also full of "hate" comments towards minorities, blacks, Arabs, etc. but loud hardly means efficient. The vast majority of the people who use Internet (which is not the entire population) don't even have accounts on such sites and even if they do, they can rarely be bothered with "approving" or "disapproving" something. The haters are usually loud but that doesn't mean that they are many. If they find their way into the official politics - well, then it's time to panic.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 17, 2012 08:15 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 20:17, 17 Apr 2012.
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I think its ridiculous that almost a year after it happened, we're having a TEN WEEK TRIAL. Okay, his mental state was debated but I think they've decided on that now.
How is this possible? WE KNOW he killed over 70 people.
There can only be one punishment: those 21 years in prison. Also why does he get a 3-room cell with tv, computer and training room?
This is all exactly what Breivik wants.
edit: also on socialism, in Sweden our "socialist" party is more of a centre or even centre-right party these days
and I like that better
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 17, 2012 08:28 PM |
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Lexxan:
And let me put me feelings a bit more bluntly: There are people worse than Breivik, and usually they are politicans. People who say they will do something, and then smoke cigarretes over their own backrooms deals and ignores problems. People who can't even value the fine ability of being honest and true to word, is the worst people there is, even Anarchists are more trustworthy than a lot of the politicans running the worlds different Status Quo driven political systems.
And so your politicans are starting to become one of those despicable clubs as well?
I wonder, in a world where we realized the immigration problems already back in the 70s, and fixed them by their roots, and our politicans agreed to ignore the economic crisis to avoid the downfall spiral, would there ever have been any motivations for a quasi-racist like Breivik to go on a killing spree in the summercap of the countries most indoctrinated political party?
If his actions has managed to slowly get a ball of political purge rolling, it could be the best thing that has happened for Scandinavia since the Social Democrats got the power in Sweden in the 1930s. Most likely, people will just forget this in a few years, and the horrible and evil of Status Quo politics will continue on intil things get bad enough for a new revolution and more civil unrest.
As for Breivik. The only reason you don't understand his actions is because you are labeling him as a inhuman monster, and then attempt to cloud your own attempts at understanding him. A lot of people do, in politics, religion, science, school fair, trading cards. Except you think your reason to think he is "evil incarnated" is more valid than against somebody you play cards against.
Because you want him to be a monster, you think he a alien monster, and because of that, the lack of post modernism forces you to think of his writing as alien text, and then you fail to read it.
As for your major blunt point;
"You can change things", let me but it blunt, No I can't. At the best, I can start assasinating or blackmailing people, or get enough money to run a lobbey, which means I also trampe other peoples rights at "having their vote" or "having their say". If I get enough people to change the system, I will per definiton already have trampled on the majorities will, and violated their rights.
If i join a polticial party, I will most likely end up becoming another rock who can't actually fix snow in a society. Or the party of people who can actually fix things won't get any power, because at any given time, the Status Quo will create the Status Quo.
Some times I wonder if you silly idealists you think you have the power to actually change the system, and you only think that because you might be afraid of the fact you can't actually change things.
I am not free, nor is society. I only have marginally more to say, but my freedom has expanded tenfolds compared 2-3 centuries ago, and yet there was societies with more freedom that existed for perhaps a generation or two, somewhere in the past of dead socities, before their fell to more oppressive or expanding societies or merely disease.
Its still a nice amount of freedom, yet I am not free, nor are you. We are all slaves of the system, but in a very non noticable manner.
So snow your "You can change things".
There are thousends out there who wants to murdre Breivik, given a chance to get away with it, just like there is thousends upon thousends out there who will do the same to our all beloved politicans.
Perhaps I will get the chance, passing several thousend of rolling dices with perfect numbers, and get the chance to oppressed a Nation. But I rather doubt it, for I am not free to do so, for it is chance who decides that.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 17, 2012 08:34 PM |
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Well if you don't try, then you will certainly never be able to change things.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 17, 2012 08:46 PM |
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Don't worry about that. If I get the chance, I will try. But I wonder what it will entail.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted April 17, 2012 08:49 PM |
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I agree with diablo's point to a certain degree, Breiviek 'walked the talk' unlike most people, shame his talent/skills couldn't be harnessed.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted April 17, 2012 08:54 PM |
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Quote:
shame his talent/skills couldn't be harnessed
Don't worry, we have enough Dark Triad types leading the governments and corporations.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 17, 2012 08:56 PM |
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It's funny how one norwegian guy doing this once gets all this attention from our members but no one cares about the hundreds of americans, israelis, persians, palestinians, ethiopians, etc. Doing something like it every once in a while.
All of them have some kind of reasoning for doing it. It may be killing a resistance head, dominating the population, keeping order or making one's opinion heard and they might shoot them with rockets or slash them with knives instead but it doesn't matter really. The result is still a lot of dead innoncents.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 17, 2012 09:17 PM |
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Death is something that people can get used to just like everything else. Apathy - even more so. What's so strange about it? The black sheep naturally draws attention - because the rest of the sheep look the same or just wear a damn good camouflage.
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