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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 26, 2008 12:35 PM |
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The TOH MOD
Thread results update as of April 10
The TOH MOD project that started on March 18 in "TOH fan letter to Ubi" thread has finally yielded first results. To use the MOD, you need to copy this file into ...\Ubisoft\Heroes of Might and Magic V - Tribes of the East\UserMODs. Follow this link to download TOH MOD v1.0:
TOH MOD v1.1
This MOD is an output of extensive discussions among heroes community members. Its actual creation was kindly done by Cepheus. The MOD fixes following game elements:
1. Invisibility ability of stalker and shadow mistress reduced from 3 to 2 turns.
2. Divine Vengeance formula changed to this:
none - F*(10+0,5*SP)
basic- F*(10+1*SP)
adv - F*(20+2*SP)
exp - F*(30+3*SP)
3. Flaming arrows/triple ballista now have slightly changed prerequisites (similar to original TOTE demon skillwheel):
Orc:
Archery + Frenzy + Might over Magic --> Flaming Arrows
Memory of Our Blood + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Knight:
Archery + Frenzy + Benediction --> Flaming Arrows
Retaliation Strike + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Necro:
Archery + Frenzy + Ethernal Servitude --> Flaming Arrows
Mark of Necro + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Ranger:
Archery + Frenzy + Dead Eye Shot --> Flaming Arrows
Rain of Arrows + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Rune Mage:
Archery + Frenzy + Refresh Rune --> Flaming Arrows
Fine Rune + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Warlock:
Archery + Frenzy + Dark Ritual --> Flaming Arrows
Elemental Vision + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Wizard:
Archery + Frenzy + Magic Mirror --> Flaming Arrows
Consume Artifact + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Demons stay as they are now
4. Warpath bonus reduced from 350 movement points to 122.5 points.
5. Force arrow ability removed from Arcane archers.
After the final version (hopefully this one) has been soundly established within TOH gaming practice, I'll approach Aurelain in hope that she might help us by producing an appropriate skill wheel.
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Original post
This thread has been born as a logical continuation of another thread - "TOH fan letter to Ubi". The information below is a concise synopsis of a very long discussion concerning what should be changed in TOTE via creating The TOH MOD that might be used while waiting for the official patch.
To summarize, the community has largely agreed on these amendments that The TOH MOD will contain:
1. Diminish Stalker invisibility effect.
2. Reduce Divine Vengeance damage.
3. Make Flaming arrows harder to attain.
4. Warpath bonus must be reduced.
Obviously, list of total needed amendments is considerably longer, yet we have decided to include only MAJOR imbalances in the mod. If the community reaches a mutual agreement the current 4 fixes could be complemented with few more.
At present moment we still have to reach consensus about HOW EXACTLY these imbalances should be changed. I believe we can fulfill this task quite soon and move on to the actual creation of The TOH MOD. People, please, be proactive and voice your suggestions!
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 26, 2008 12:46 PM |
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Those changes currently affect dungeon, orcs and haven. So, logically speaking these factions are currently overpowered? Im just asking...
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 26, 2008 01:19 PM |
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Quote:
Those changes currently affect dungeon, orcs and haven. So, logically speaking these factions are currently overpowered? Im just asking...
How did you reach that conclusion?? Flaming arrows is power for most races, warpath for all, DV for light magic factions...
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 26, 2008 01:32 PM |
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Major imbalances? If they are so "major", it seems that people who get that win on 100% of games.
Flaming arrows with triple ballista is usually used by orcs and haven. Inferno has hard time getting it. So, if you wanna make it harder for them to have it that means that they do crazy things with it and start kicking every other factions butt. I agree with divine vengeance though and warpath too. Again, mod should consider FINAL FIGHTS, not creeping. You must make all factions to have equal chances to win in final fight, no matter how you get there.
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted March 26, 2008 03:12 PM |
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creeping affects directly the final battle . more precisely, creeping speed and safety. so u cannot separate them completelly.
W/m are general issue, path is a general issue, DV can be aquired by almost all races considering that are some buidlings that could offer this opportunity to get the spell even if it is or is not part o the native mage guild, so it goes for general.
only particular change is stalker issue which is common sense  , and can be successfully exchanged with some other ways to creep, almost as effective as this one.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 26, 2008 03:42 PM |
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Edited by samiekl at 15:44, 26 Mar 2008.
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The changes proposed here (im talking about triple flaming ballista and stalkers) currently affect 3 races. With your experience in toh, tell me how much advantage gives that creeping in final fights? Your major imbalanced triple flaming ballista is used against you when facing academy for example. Now, the most ardent problem (as it seems)...stalkers. OK, remove their invisibility, i have nothing against it, as long as you give me a shooter at level 3 or something else so i dont rely on spells ONLY in creeping, i mean, all factions' creeping potential has been GREATLY improved in tote. In hof and 1.0 dungeon creeping was done in a similar way (7 assassins/furies or hydras) and then dungeon was underpowered (except in small maps where an empowered meteor swept away a whole army). If you guys remember, dungeon's favourite playstyle was hit and runs. Now, why was that?
Another thing, i cant believe how many of you go against the stalkers but NOT A SINGLE GUY here has something against arcane archers. I mean, are they really ok as they are now? Because i really think the most improved race in tote is sylvan. Arcane archers, new unicorns, new dragons, FAMILIAR GROUND GIVES 2 SPEED (yes, sylvan really needed that  ). Remember what you said teacher, that you didnt expect dungeon to kill you... why?
maybe we should get back to 1.0 and hof? 
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted March 26, 2008 04:22 PM |
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Quote:
The changes proposed here (im talking about triple flaming ballista and stalkers) currently affect 3 races. With your experience in toh, tell me how much advantage gives that creeping in final fights? Your major imbalanced triple flaming ballista is used against you when facing academy for example. Now, the most ardent problem (as it seems)...stalkers. OK, remove their invisibility, i have nothing against it, as long as you give me a shooter at level 3 or something else so i dont rely on spells ONLY in creeping, i mean, all factions' creeping potential has been GREATLY improved in tote. In hof and 1.0 dungeon creeping was done in a similar way (7 assassins/furies or hydras) and then dungeon was underpowered (except in small maps where an empowered meteor swept away a whole army). If you guys remember, dungeon's favourite playstyle was hit and runs. Now, why was that?
Another thing, i cant believe how many of you go against the stalkers but NOT A SINGLE GUY here has something against arcane archers. I mean, are they really ok as they are now? Because i really think the most improved race in tote is sylvan. Arcane archers, new unicorns, new dragons, FAMILIAR GROUND GIVES 2 SPEED (yes, sylvan really needed that ). Remember what you said teacher, that you didnt expect dungeon to kill you... why?
maybe we should get back to 1.0 and hof?
samiekl: Its very simple why Strider_HL want to change flaming ballista. His clan is sylvan and they cant use this tactic...so why other ppl to can...?
You are right in ToTe Sylvan is most overpowered race and inblanced.If we need balance races...need start with sylvan.
In HoF ppl use with sylvan attack(2%skill)+tactics to can hit with all his creatures in 1st turn....but now its no need because have stupid FAMILIAR GROUND. Have new arcane archers with 11 init !!! Attack is 6% skill now WHY? It's realy kill balance in final battle. You can loss 90% from your army befor get turn.
DV and warpath need be decresed in general.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 26, 2008 04:30 PM |
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Yes, almost forgot about the 6% attack combined with 10% enlightenment. Plus, you wanna go destructive and do more damage than a warlock, go with new druids.
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted March 26, 2008 06:18 PM |
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fyi, i dont like sylvan
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted March 26, 2008 06:53 PM |
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again, I think only minor nerfing of some of these things is needed. Eg. doubling/tripling spell points of DV, stalker reducing initiative significantly.
Flaming arrows, warpath, are they really that a big deal? No worse than MOTW etc..
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INSATIABLE
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted March 26, 2008 07:41 PM |
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yea feels 1. and 2. is most needed, 3. and 4. not so important, balista can die in 1 shot so you lose like 6 skills on the spot and warpath verygood only in very few maps e.g dragonhill or huge size random.. other wise have to spend 5 skills for warpath while logisitcs may not be even mandatory for map
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted March 26, 2008 08:01 PM |
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Maybe instead of making it harder for haven,orcs to get flaming ballista, make it as easy to get for inferno ?
They really do need it.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted March 26, 2008 10:17 PM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 22:27, 26 Mar 2008.
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And again I will point out that UBI thought process when making the TOTE expansion was no where near Multiplayer considerations.. They BEEFED every town up with some radically stupid flashy features that only made this game way way more UNBALANCED. They are more concernede with campaign style and single player mode.
Orcs are UNGODLY to strong! They hit with incredible amounts of power... AND they reduce damage they take by seems like 75%.. when 15 magmas Dragons can bearly deal 100 damage to 1 clop???? That is a joke already? Why do they even need access to War Machines PERIOD!!! Orcs have no business have a balista that can get flaming arrows and triple shot etc etc...
There is alot of stuff that I am sure we would all change around in this game if we wanted to make it balanced. And as it is.. all towns are radically different, yet you give them ALL the same option for most skills?????? There is no way that will ever be balanced!
more thoughts to come.........
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Zilonite
Famous Hero
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posted March 26, 2008 11:37 PM |
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Quote:
The TOH MOD will contain:
1. Diminish Stalker invisibility effect.
2. Reduce Divine Vengeance damage.
3. Make Flaming arrows harder to attain.
4. Warpath bonus must be reduced.
My full support for those 4 and no other changes.
Although, reading posts above, I really doubt that ToH needs any mod at all - reaching consensus here seems to be mission impossible.
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Elephants commonly have a bad eyesight. Yet with their bulk this is not a major problem for them.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 10:39 AM |
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Quote:
yea feels 1. and 2. is most needed, 3. and 4. not so important, balista can die in 1 shot so you lose like 6 skills on the spot and warpath verygood only in very few maps e.g dragonhill or huge size random.. other wise have to spend 5 skills for warpath while logisitcs may not be even mandatory for map
 To all those master players who disregard the power of Flaming arrows:
1. Early Flaming arrows is a MONSTER creeping method and it's damage with expert ballista is often SEVERAL times bigger than total army damage. E.g. Recently I cleared 14 phoenixes + 18 dragons with Flaming arrows and 100 skirmishers, 100 shieldguards, without magic on day ~16.
2. Flaming arrows is prone to appear for Demons, Knights, Runemages, Orcs and to much lesser extent Wizards - thats 5 races out of 8.
3. I noticed that majority of objections come from "only" Hourglass players... If you look around then majority of maps have 1-2 towns. Obviously if you walk around with 100 crossbowmen in week 2 then Flaming arrow is not an issue. But IT'S NOT THE CASE on most maps.
4. Creeping is the MOST IMPORTANT part of the game. If you have surpassed opponent for a week or more, the final battle is a travesty. Flaming arrows (and stalkers) let you do that.
To summarize, I propose to add just 1 extra prerequisite for attaining Flaming arrows (similar to demons now). That's all. Plain and simple. And, honestly, I spend too much time arguing against poor arguments. After all, NO ONE has answerered to my desperate question already in previous thread - "What has changed sice HOF to make ballista so much more powerfull with triple shot + Flaming if back then ballista creeping was already VERY EFFICIENT?"
About warpath. Most human made maps are quite dense meaning that you can get 3-4 fights a day. Multiply warpath bonus with that, add for momentum, add logistics bonus in total warpath gain formula and you will see the huge difference between total movement of expert logs and expert logs + warpath. It's >1500 movement points (standard hero has 2500).
In conclusion, only people who understand the game or have been beaten by one of these imbalances will play The TOH MOD. There is no need to get 100% agreement. After all, it's a mutual consensus to play with it. Personally, our clan will offer all future clan wars to be held using The TOH MOD.
I hope that The TOH MOD will spread after a while likewise as Equilibrium did in H4 times! Back then we experienced exactly the same discussion scenario...
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 11:30 AM |
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Quote:
To all those master players who disregard the power of Flaming arrows:
1. Early Flaming arrows is a MONSTER creeping method and it's damage with expert ballista is often SEVERAL times bigger than total army damage. E.g. Recently I cleared 14 phoenixes + 18 dragons with Flaming arrows and 100 skirmishers, 100 shieldguards, without magic on day ~16.
2. Flaming arrows is prone to appear for Demons, Knights, Runemages, Orcs and to much lesser extent Wizards - thats 5 races out of 8.
3. I noticed that majority of objections come from "only" Hourglass players... If you look around then majority of maps have 1-2 towns. Obviously if you walk around with 100 crossbowmen in week 2 then Flaming arrow is not an issue. But IT'S NOT THE CASE on most maps.
4. Creeping is the MOST IMPORTANT part of the game. If you have surpassed opponent for a week or more, the final battle is a travesty. Flaming arrows (and stalkers) let you do that.
To summarize, I propose to add just 1 extra prerequisite for attaining Flaming arrows (similar to demons now). That's all. Plain and simple. And, honestly, I spend too much time arguing against poor arguments. After all, NO ONE has answerered to my desperate question already in previous thread - "What has changed sice HOF to make ballista so much more powerfull with triple shot + Flaming if back then ballista creeping was already VERY EFFICIENT?"
Day 16 Wizard/Warlock/Necromancer with Summons a phoenix can kill "14 phoenixes + 18 dragons".
Day 16 Demons, Knights, Runemages, Orcs dont have any chance to kill "14 phoenixes + 18 dragons" if dont have expert War Machines+Flaming arrows.
Ranger maybe cant on day 16 but he have very good creeping ability from day 1.
Now can you compare ability Demons, Knights, Runemages, Orcs for creeping week 1 with all other races?
Here have GOOD REASON this races to have high chance for WM...and Attack...and its because they can't kill so good with low lvl creatures.
p.s. Maybe if you start play balanced maps like HG/BZ you will start worry less for Flaming arrows and your oponent will have same chances for won from begining
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 11:37 AM |
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Quote:
After all, NO ONE has answerered to my desperate question already in previous thread - "What has changed sice HOF to make ballista so much more powerfull with triple shot + Flaming if back then ballista creeping was already VERY EFFICIENT?"
Its another game. Stop thinking about hof. It's just another game, ok?
Quote:
About warpath. Most human made maps are quite dense meaning that you can get 3-4 fights a day. Multiply warpath bonus with that, add for momentum, add logistics bonus in total warpath gain formula and you will see the huge difference between total movement of expert logs and expert logs + warpath. It's >1500 movement points (standard hero has 2500).
Everybody agreed with that.
Quote:
In conclusion, only people who understand the game or have been beaten by one of these imbalances will play The TOH MOD.
Give me a break. The TOH mod is A few people's mod. I like triple flaming ballista, i like stalkers, i even enjoy sylvan to some extent. I've beaten with these and I've been beaten by these things. So? Maybe there are just a few people out there that really understand the game like you. I am just for modifying divine vengeance and warpath.
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted March 27, 2008 11:41 AM |
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i say, do the mod as 70% of ppl agreed, and dont ask for further opinions anymore, cause will be a neverending story, besides the fact that sometimes, as i could see, the only reference point is one map (HG), which is completelly irrelevant.
no one will force u play the mod, but for those who mutually consider it an improvement will play their game moded. plain and simple.
good luck and i hope we will see the Toh mod soon
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 12:11 PM |
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Edited by sq79 at 12:24, 27 Mar 2008.
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Initially I thought it was supposed to be a fan letter to ubi to balance out certain aspects of the game, but now it turned out to be a toh mod ?
After some thinking ...
To be honest, i'm against the mod, because i can imagine some players bringing this thread up for further mods when they lose games, its happened too many times already, losses ended up as arguments in the forum.
One reason, if 1.0 till hof, we didn't need any mods to balance out the overpowered necro in 2.0 and haven in 1.0, why do we need a mod now ?
Creeping is important part of the game, that's for sure, and surely important in week 1 or 2 rush game. But maybe we ask the mapmakers, why players creeping so agressively ????
Because there are simply too many goodies to grab doing early fights. You don't see that happening in ubi maps right ?
I hope there's a patch though .. if not as per normal for me
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 12:14 PM |
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Quote:
i say, do the mod as 70% of ppl agreed, and dont ask for further opinions anymore, cause will be a neverending story, besides the fact that sometimes, as i could see, the only reference point is one map (HG), which is completelly irrelevant.
no one will force u play the mod, but for those who mutually consider it an improvement will play their game moded. plain and simple.
good luck and i hope we will see the Toh mod soon
Will be more easy to make mod with 40% from ppl agree
I dont see how making races with less ability for creeping from day 1, more weak...will balance game.
Most comments come from HG players because most ppl play it.
I have alot games with Jorko80 on random maps (just we dont report intra clan games) and know diference from human maps.
If you don't play so rush map Flaming arrows not kill balance. On 2 weeks maps War Machines+Flaming arrows =won 99% from games...but its same in HoF.
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