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Zilonite
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2008 03:36 PM |
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Edited by Zilonite at 15:48, 29 Mar 2008.
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Ok, as there are lots of arguing going on, some points from my side as well.
Samples part
Stalkers
As the necessity to reduce stalkers-powercreep is more or less agreed, no need to make lots of writing efforts here. Only one sample - killing two throngs of vamp lords on day 10, on relatively poor map like Dead Man's Lake, without visiting well, without any +50% damage arties, without firewall and losing only 1 stalker in total. What can the opponent of any faction do against this week 2 attack? Can ANYTHING in this game be compared to this?
Flaming Arrows
1.Not so long ago I had a game with Dwarves against Orcs. Basically all game was reduced to who will get warmachines/Flaming Arrows and who won't. My Ebba got unlucky and got Warmachines only about week 4 and no Flaming Arrows at all. Result - Orc hero cleared all map almost on autocomabat and came to my town on week 5 with stat difference 30+  and total ballista damage around 1200
2.In UBI letter thread I already posted replay where Flaming Arrows slained 30+ Storm Titans on DAY 4
Of course, one can argue that those are extreme samples and it won't happen usually in so deadly way. However, killing any monster on almost any map with Flaming Arrows starting right away from week 2 happens in 4 games out of 5 with orcs (and only to a bit lesser extend with Dwarves/Knights).
Argumentation part
Strider and Teacher already did extansive, clear and well-found argumantation on this. However Elit and others who opposed made lots of fair points as well. Imho, strongest argument against reducement of Flaming Arrows power is availability of similar "overpowered" tactics (e.g., phoenix). So from my side only little comparison, how use of phoenix differs from stalkers and flaming arrows:
1.Easy accesablity - you will have stalkers and some destructive spells on week 1 in 100% cases, Flaming Arrows and Machines on week 2 on vast majority of games (especially with orcs). Getting phoenix is not that easy - you need resources to build that mage guild, need to spend building turns on this, need luck to get that spell in your guild or somewhere else, need to risk developing summoning magic just hoping to see that phoenix in your mage guild e.t.c.
2.Hit&run potential - guess, no need to comment on this one, especially on stalkers part.
3.No need of battle-micromanagment - all battles are just dull with those two. Of course, phoenix can do almost as much in terms of results, but still you should play much more carefully with it.
And in addition:
4.Huge impact of luck in all games - if one might faction gets warmachines/flaming arrows early on and another doesn't, its plainly game over.
5.Boringness factor. On most ToH maps (1 or even 2 towns/week 5 fights) maps Warmachines/Flaming Arrows are the ultimate strategy for all races (apart from Necro and Dungeon), so the same getting warmachines/balllista game with almost every town.
Proposals part
Taking into account all above mentioned, I'm strongly supporting the vision of ToH mod with stalkers and Flaming Arrows severly cut. However, imho, more important than some personal opinion on what is right/wrong is the idea that the ToH community should like the mod and should use it. Therefore main focus should be paid on reaching compromises, so that the mod will be usefull as for Strider, as for Elit, too.
Taking into account all thoughts, expressed in this thread, imho, changes should look something like this:
1.Stalkers - invisibility duration should be cut down to 2 turns, but not touching initiative (or we can use Jinxer's proposal - reduce initiative, but improve Assasins).
2.Flaming Arrows - reducement should be made, but not too extensively (with main aim to make Flaming Arrows on the same level of effectiveness as, for example, phoenix). Imho, suggested few post above proposals on using additional prerequisits for Triple Ballista/Flaming Arrows from Attack/Racial skill trees is such a compromise. This way it will take some more investment of skill slots and time, yet will not drastically affect general power of Flaming Arrows.
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Fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2008 03:49 PM |
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Hurray for Zilos diplomacy skill!
I will join in search for greater glory
(Gmmari - thanks for putting my name up with the big guys, but Strider and Zilo beats me 9 out of 10 times I am afraid.. yet one day..  )
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2008 03:56 PM |
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Quote:
Hurray for Zilos diplomacy skill!
I will join in search for greater glory
(Gmmari - thanks for putting my name up with the big guys, but Strider and Zilo beats me 9 out of 10 times I am afraid.. yet one day.. )
Seems he's just gotten skull of markal 
Its best if strider and elit both reach a compromise
There's just too many problems to list out 
Another suggestion, if orcs are tamed, reduce centaurs to small creatures, will make them slightly eaiser for creeps without war machines
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 29, 2008 04:05 PM |
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Yes, and give expert implosion to goblins 
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fiur
Promising
Supreme Hero
Map Creator
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posted March 29, 2008 04:09 PM |
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Quote:
Another suggestion, if orcs are tamed, reduce centaurs to small creatures, will make them slightly eaiser for creeps without war machines
that a damn nice one SQ !! 
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted March 29, 2008 04:36 PM |
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IMO.... Orcs shouldnt even have option to get Flaming ARROWS.... they are way to overpowered insane on there own.. IN my recent games, they attack garrison with only Clops and I couldnt even kill 1 clop.... 15 Magmas Dragons and 30 Black Dragons coulndt do enough damage to them.... so no need for over powered balista.
So take flaming arrow option out completely for ORCS or make them the hardest of all to achieve.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2008 08:43 PM |
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Quote:
2.Flaming Arrows - reducement should be made, but not too extensively (with main aim to make Flaming Arrows on the same level of effectiveness as, for example, phoenix). Imho, suggested few post above proposals on using additional prerequisits for Triple Ballista/Flaming Arrows from Attack/Racial skill trees is such a compromise. This way it will take some more investment of skill slots and time, yet will not drastically affect general power of Flaming Arrows.
 Zilo's arguments are sound. After further discussions with several prominent players we have reached the following conclusions:
1. On 1-2 town maps (currently majority in TOH) almost always 4-5 out of 8 races will try to reach Flaming arrows regardless of prerequisite difficulty - temptation to get this huge power is too great.
2. If the prerequisites are too sophisticated, the random element will only play bigger role in situations when one player gets Flaming arrows while other does not.
3. Creeping with current Flaming arrows system is ridiculous.
Keeping these considerations in mind we propose implementation of Zilo's introduced prerequisite system. With this The TOH MOD will usually ensure:
1. Acquiring Flaming arrows ~3rd week thus effectively reducing time of early overpowered creeping.
2. Both players will have Flaming arrows (if that race needs it) thus coping with the ballista issue in final battle. Effectively both ballistas will cancel out each other. The only drawback can be seen as random element of ATB bar - whose ballista will act first (similar to sylvan mirror games where everything is decided by whose elves shoot first).
Also, it was decided to introduce minor tweaks to Zilo's system in order to comply with many complaints regarding orcs, etc. The latest proposed prerequisite system:
Orc:
Archery + Frenzy + Might over Magic --> Flaming Arrows
Memory of Our Blood + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Knight:
Archery + Frenzy + Benediction --> Flaming Arrows
Retaliation Strike + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Necro:
Archery + Frenzy + Ethernal Servitude --> Flaming Arrows
Mark of Necro + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Ranger:
Archery + Frenzy + Dead Eye Shot --> Flaming Arrows
Rain of Arrows + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Rune Mage:
Archery + Frenzy + Refresh Rune --> Flaming Arrows
Fine Rune + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Warlock:
Archery + Frenzy + Dark Ritual --> Flaming Arrows
Elemental Vision + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Wizard:
Archery + Frenzy + Magic Mirror --> Flaming Arrows
Consume Artifact + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Demons stay as they are now
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2008 09:00 PM |
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I'm perfect understand for what you talk Zilo...and for this i dont like "War Machines maps" because here is all about luck who will get it 1st. On maps like this Magic is less good and you need time/resurces for build magic guild. You can get not what you want too..from other side you can buy war machines from town and not risk here.
In HoF max benefit from War Machines have inferno (because up main attack+Knowledge). For this in ToTe inferno have max reqest for get Flaming Arrows. No starting War Machines hero need lvl 16 for get Expert war Machines+Triple balista+First Aid+Flaming Arrows. So far Conjure Phoenix are useful vs strong high lvl army after 15-18lvl. Flaming Arrows give max benifist vs lvl 6-7 creatures so if we make it possible after 15lvl will get more "balance".
Most easy and simple to make it is this:
-->Barbarian: Memory of our Blood+Powerful Blow+Might Over Magic.
-->Knight: Benediction+Expert Trainer+Retaliation Strike
-->Necromancer: Banshee Howl+Eternal Servitude+Mark of the Necromancer
-->Ranger: Deadeye Shot+Imbue Arrow+Rain of Arrows
-->Runemage: Fine Rune+Greater Rune+Refresh Rune
-->Warlock: Dark Ritual+Elemental Vision+Empowered Spells
-->Wizard: Consume Artifact+Magic mirror+Mark of the Wizard
We will prevent early get Flaming Arrows and keep max possible skill choices for diferent play.
P.S. I can't understand why Arcane Archer have 11 ini when alot more logic is to have 9. Now all games every 1 use only them...no reson for use old Master Hunter. In Haven town when archers are upgrade to more strong shoters --> Marksman or Crossbow man ini down from 9 to 8. Maybe is good idea to include this too in ToH mod.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted March 29, 2008 09:21 PM |
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To Elite - Because all stories tell elf's archers are fast, best archers ever ... Crossbow are more slow weapon, that's way Haven use footman's with large shields to protect others from ranged attacks...
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2008 09:46 PM |
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Quote:
To Elite - Because all stories tell elf's archers are fast, best archers ever ... Crossbow are more slow weapon, that's way Haven use footman's with large shields to protect others from ranged attacks...
Sweet Fantasy side of heroes is sooo appealing and you depicted it really well
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2008 10:00 PM |
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Quote:
To Elite - Because all stories tell elf's archers are fast, best archers ever ... Crossbow are more slow weapon, that's way Haven use footman's with large shields to protect others from ranged attacks...
Story can be nice but 11 ini + no range penalty is so much...and not balance. Most shoters in game have 10/9 ini and range penalty. Master Hunters have Double shot (he is best from all archers)and none use him more.
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 05:13 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
To Elite - Because all stories tell elf's archers are fast, best archers ever ... Crossbow are more slow weapon, that's way Haven use footman's with large shields to protect others from ranged attacks...
Story can be nice but 11 ini + no range penalty is so much...and not balance. Most shoters in game have 10/9 ini and range penalty. Master Hunters have Double shot (he is best from all archers)and none use him more.
Hmm... if u watch lord of the ring, how orlando bloom takes out the arrow and shoots, maybe their initiative should be faster than furies, how about 17 for them
And requirement to form dwarwen clan, height must not be more than 1.2m tall 
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fiur
Promising
Supreme Hero
Map Creator
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posted March 30, 2008 07:33 AM |
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Quote:
Hmm... if u watch lord of the ring, how orlando bloom takes out the arrow and shoots, maybe their initiative should be faster than furies, how about 17 for them
And requirement to form dwarwen clan, height must not be more than 1.2m tall
Now we're talking SQ79......
and to start a Chaotic clan (like my self your IQ can't be higher than 70) hihi
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 08:35 AM |
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Elit "Most shooters in game have 10/9 ini and range penalty."
Gremlin Saboteur have initiative 12, and ability sabotaje ... No other shooter have this ... So ?
How about a simple verbal mod - no hit and run with stalkers, and no vengeance ?
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Zilonite
Famous Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 09:21 AM |
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Edited by Zilonite at 09:21, 30 Mar 2008.
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Arcane Archers
Quote:
P.S. I can't understand why Arcane Archer have 11 ini when alot more logic is to have 9. Now all games every 1 use only them...no reson for use old Master Hunter. In Haven town when archers are upgrade to more strong shoters --> Marksman or Crossbow man ini down from 9 to 8. Maybe is good idea to include this too in ToH mod.
Supporting Elit here - Arcane Archers should be weakened and, if we are making number 5 on our ToH mod list, they are perfect candidates - like sq said, every shoot they make is like empowered implosion.
However, imho, best way how to weaken them is not by reducing ini (lets stick to high fantasy genre ), but just weakning their damage. Exact proposal - reduce damage from 8-9 to 6-7. This way they still will be exceptionally good and better then Master Hunters in most cases because of ini, but at least that insane damage will be slightly decreased.
Flaming Arrows
Actually Strider and Elit is proposing almost the same prerequisits (Frenzy+ 2 racial perks or 3 racial perks). I like use of Frenzy as a prerequisite better, because in that case Orcs will not have access to Tactics. Yet in big lines both those systems are fine for me.
Only, imho, its important to split prerequisits between Flaming Arrows and Tripple Ballista to make both those perks a bit harder to get.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 10:49 AM |
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Flaming Arrows
Actually Strider and Elit is proposing almost the same prerequisits (Frenzy+ 2 racial perks or 3 racial perks). I like use of Frenzy as a prerequisite better, because in that case Orcs will not have access to Tactics. Yet in big lines both those systems are fine for me.
Only, imho, its important to split prerequisits between Flaming Arrows and Tripple Ballista to make both those perks a bit harder to get.
Actualy i dont like "add reqest" what kill options for use one or other skill. Its major change on game. Need to have max option for diferet play.
We are talk only for "Flaming Arrows". Change Triple balista is bad idea. For example Vitorio balista on low lvls doing very smal dmg...no point to make it more weak.
STOP blame orc/balista. This race is 100% Might and dont have any spels. On maps with 1-2 towns rage is very low in begining. Only Centaur is good for creeping but he is large and cant be protect easy. Orc need strong balista and to get it early...or he dont have chance for creeping.
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted March 30, 2008 11:19 AM |
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Quote:
Actualy i dont like "add reqest" what kill options for use one or other skill. Its major change on game. Need to have max option for diferet play.
Elit, this is exactly we are talking about : OPTIONS. if u keep ballista the way it is, there will no other pertinent options, it's one way only. sacrificing some perk/skill to obtain a powerfull instrument would be balanced with other strategy which doenst require too much compromise, in terms of skill plan, but offers u an good alternative.
if the best is as simply to get as the rest , who will chooose the less then? no one. actually, try to see the logic behind your words. it is exactly like the choice between stalker and assasins at the moment. zero choice.
orc is 90% might faction. and a more "colorful" template can spice up a game, we dont need universal pattern here, we eventually will be getting tired to hear same story over and over again, pattern who will reduce the difference between players' skill.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 11:34 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Actualy i dont like "add reqest" what kill options for use one or other skill. Its major change on game. Need to have max option for diferet play.
Elit, this is exactly we are talking about : OPTIONS. if u keep ballista the way it is, there will no other pertinent options, it's one way only. sacrificing some perk/skill to obtain a powerfull instrument would be balanced with other strategy which doenst require too much compromise, in terms of skill plan, but offers u an good alternative.
if the best is as simply to get as the rest , who will chooose the less then? no one. actually, try to see the logic behind your words. it is exactly like the choice between stalker and assasins at the moment. zero choice.
orc is 90% might faction. and a more "colorful" template can spice up a game, we dont need universal pattern here, we eventually will be getting tired to hear same story over and over again, pattern who will reduce the difference between players' skill.
We are talk for prevent early get Flaming Arrows. Not making subjective view for "balance" and sacrifice one skill for get other. Its very stupid and will no't agree with this. For sure will not use mods what kill options for more diferent tactics.
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gmmari
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 11:48 AM |
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For flaming all possible change written seems fine for me and for the stalker also 2 turn seems a good compromise.
As jinxer say we can do some change in the assassin but why not increse the speed insted of the attack?
For example to have assassin that can attack on melee at first strike could be a good compromise and many player could find a good new way in creeping (speed 9 i think).
In many map we can add some like magic spell(like regenerate)so all faction that can't use the light from castle can find some chance for play a decent game..if invisibility is too strong..
If logistic is free now in many map we can think the same also for some light spell and skill
just an idea
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted March 30, 2008 12:05 PM |
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Quote:
We are talk for prevent early get Flaming Arrows. Not making subjective view for "balance" and sacrifice one skill for get other. Its very stupid and will no't agree with this. For sure will not use mods what kill options for more diferent tactics.
useless. u seem to/can not understand the point. on this last try, i give up
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