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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 06:05 PM |
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Exactly, people who dont post will not play with any mod. To answer something to you... you said that you will be in disadvantage if someone plays the things that work and the opponent doesnt. SO WHAT??? It's only a game  If your main target is to become emperor..well, nothing i can add here, but if you already are an emperor why do you continue playing, especially the same things (that work) over and over again? Stalkers are not imbalanced, flaming ballista isnt, etc... from my point of view. I'll play with and against them from now on too no matter if i lose or win 
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted April 17, 2008 11:58 PM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 00:14, 18 Apr 2008.
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Here is how I look at it.....
I support anything that has the spirit of making the game more balanced. Stalkers - Divine Vengeance - Arcane Archers are obvious game design flaws. Its no secret that UBI designed this game around single player campaigns. Multiplayer was not a consideration... To be honest... I could live without Flaming arrows change... only cause every town has same option to get it. With that said... I still think its way to strong for early game creeping.. If it came down to it... I dont think Elits flaming prerequisites are bad...dont forget the basic goal was to minimize early creeping power... so why all of a sudden are we worried about making them not get tactics as well?? Lets keep this simple. Solve the obvious problem and we can worry about fine tuning this MOD later on months down the road when we see success of MOD and want to start fine tuning other aspects of game. I would be happy using either Elit or Zilo way... Just my 2 cents.
But I find it funny, how some players DONT want the changes.. because they thrive on exploiting the unbalance aspects of the game. they Pick Ossir and arcanes every game.... etc etc. And the concept of having to learn how to play all aspects of a balanced game, is scary to them.
In the long run, the amount of players that wont use MOD will be far far less then the ones that will be using the mod. So eventually if they want a game, they will either have to play amoung each other or breka down and accept change. Game Balance is more of an evolution...the MOD is evolving and perfecting an imperfect game.
Eventually people get bored with using Arcanes and Ossir EVERY single game on map Hourglass over and over and over. etc etc... and/or playing a hard fought even battle for an hour with some brilliant moves and strategic thinking... and when it gets close to the end and one player sees that he cannot win... he just reaches into the bad of silly spells and takes out 262 Arch Magi with Divine Vengeance... haha... wow... yea that is balanced... NO its not.. that is silly, and ruins a game. If I was playing single player campaign agaisnt computer.. that wouldnt matter. But in an ONline Tournament... I much prefer balance instead of weird pizazz.
So I support the MOD.. I think it needs much testing and much perfecting before it is used on a regular basis.. but the concept is sound.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted April 18, 2008 02:22 AM |
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"they Pick Ossir and arcanes every game.... etc etc. And the concept of having to learn how to play all aspects of a balanced game, is scary to them."
I not scary, you are scary of my Ossir Warcraft 3 is balanced game, much more balanced that Heroes5, but in 80% of pro games players choose as main hero for Orcs - Blade master, for Night Elf ~ 50% Demon Hunter, for humans ~ 70% ArchMage etc .... Way ? Because they need them, because faction benefit the most from this heroes... I take Ossir because it's make even better the best sylvan unit - archers ... I like this, i don't see the reason to take other hero ... It's my choice, i like it ... Not Jinxer must tell my what hero i can take, it's my game, my strategy ... So go make yours ...
"Eventually people get bored with using Arcanes and Ossir EVERY single game on map Hourglass over and over and over. etc etc..."
And you not get bored by your Battlezone ?
"he just reaches into the bad of silly spells and takes out 262 Arch Magi with Divine Vengeance... haha... wow... yea that is balanced..."
Yes is balanced ...In my game with Elit, archmagi killed all my 300 arcane archers in one shoot, my DV+rain of arrow kill only 1/3 of archmages
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted April 18, 2008 06:56 AM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 07:16, 18 Apr 2008.
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Nowhere is my post do I mention any names... why must people feel personally attacked and start flaming me??? I was speaking in general terms... please anyone who falls into the catagory of anything I speak of... please dont take personal offense and please dont retaliate with flames toward me.. I am not attacking anyone about anything .... merely voicing my opinion about the game itself. Kinda funny tho to see the people with guilty conscience speaking up hehe
Peace!
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted April 18, 2008 08:38 AM |
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Yes, i have demons blood on my hands Peace !
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted April 18, 2008 09:16 AM |
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Quote:
Nowhere is my post do I mention any names... why must people feel personally attacked and start flaming me??? I was speaking in general terms... please anyone who falls into the catagory of anything I speak of... please dont take personal offense and please dont retaliate with flames toward me.. I am not attacking anyone about anything .... merely voicing my opinion about the game itself. Kinda funny tho to see the people with guilty conscience speaking up hehe
Peace!
A strong NO to FLAMING posts! HC need a mod for that
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted April 18, 2008 09:33 AM |
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about flaming prerequisitions: i recall now that i suggested in the early psts of this thread , that flaming arrows are too easily obtained by some race (orc in particular) and represents a pretty strong instrument,a bit unbalanced, in early stage of the game and might be decisive for small, quick, 1 town maps.
therefore my proposal was to add another perk as a requirement for getting flaming arrow. its been a while since i did that, and all this time i kept trying to think/rethink out what would be the best solution for making this skill harder to be obtained, but, in the meantime, preserving the widest range of different other tatical/strategical approaches. so i came to this conclusion: elit' suggestion (hope im not mistaken the original author) of having ALL racial skills as requirements for flaming sounds the best to my ears and i concur to that.
the rest of changes should be fine, tho i didnt have time to test.
have a nice day
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gmmari
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 18, 2008 11:12 AM |
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Every one have different opinions about this mod and every one plays his game like he wants..this could be good or not but it's a democracy
We have strider way,elit way and we have some player that don't accept any type of mod because they have found a simple way to win a game chosing a particular map/faction..
We can stay here all the eternity but we will never force to change his opinion..
Elit mod have many fan and if we have a strider mod i think should be right also to have another mode and let all the community free to choose..
I still thinking that we need balanced map before mod (battlezone and hg are not balanced in some match up)but if we can't
force the player that don't accept mod to play any type of game(as jinxer says)we can't also force the player that like the elit way to play a mod that they don't like
I find the difference beetwen the 2 mod not so rilevant but if we can't have an upgrade of the mod(and let the player free to choose what type of mod they like) Let's do a second mod open to all other opinion,let's make a new topic with all the new suggestion and let's go
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted April 18, 2008 04:53 PM |
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Quote:
I still thinking that we need balanced map before mod (battlezone and hg are not balanced in some match up)
You are wrong here Gmmari.... Battlezone is as balanced of a map as there is... its NOT the map that is unbalanced... but the way UBI designed this game. Thats the WHOLE point for wanting to do a MOD! UBI made each faction sooooo different that the towns will never be 100% balanced. So some matchups on short maps are bad and some matchups on larger longer maps are bad... that is UBI fault not the maps. Thats why we NEED a MOD... Player made maps you have CONTROL over balancing the map, but it can only go so far, so need the MOD to finish the job.
I personally have a list of 100 things that I would love to add to the mod to make this game way way more balanced but for starters I would be happy with fixing the obvious problems.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 18, 2008 04:57 PM |
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But that is the point, if it's ubi's fault shouldn't you try to balance it on these very same flaws? That said I cannot really comment on the map nor have I played all factions there.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted April 18, 2008 06:19 PM |
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Edited by samiekl at 18:25, 18 Apr 2008.
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A MOD with those changes only, will not balance anything. The point is that every faction should have equal chances to win in any stage of the game. 5 changes dont do any good but introduce more imbalances. Lets take Dungeon for example (because i play dungeon more than other faction s and i think im able to talk about them better). Stalkers... do dungeon fight with stalkers or with spells? On 1-3 week maps dungeon will still be a very irritating opponent because destruction is great in this stage of the game. From week 5-6 destruction becomes pathetic and no invisibility will save them. Btw... 2 turns of invisibility or 3...its just the same thing. So...you want to balance dungeon, balance destruction formula. This is the main aspect. I mean... balance is about balancing towns/factions, isnt it? Something similar should be done with all factions, and i mean all of them. What did you do in the MOD? Remove force arrow from archers... yeah right it really cripples sylvan, isnt it? Decrease invisibility to two turns...wow... no one's gonna be able to take out lots of lvl 7 in week 2-3, right? Change prerequisites from flaming ballista, aha, like 2-3 levels more will really slow anyone down...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 18, 2008 06:32 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 18:36, 18 Apr 2008.
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If destructive formula is weakened that would have other consequences. Dungeon uses them primarily but what about the others? Academy would be weakened too and they don't have much of a spellpower value.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted April 18, 2008 06:37 PM |
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Edited by samiekl at 18:38, 18 Apr 2008.
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Exactly, changes must be very well considered. A balance mod needs extensive thinking and testing. What we have here is a 5-changes MOD that balances absolutely nothing.
(Elvin, academy doesnt need destruction to creep, and academy needs to be weakened too)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 18, 2008 06:54 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 18:54, 18 Apr 2008.
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I'm not so much concerned about whether you need them or not but would want to it remain a viable choice. About weakening, what aspect do you think is too strong?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted April 18, 2008 07:08 PM |
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samiekl: I dont like "Invisibility" on Stalkers. For me this skill need to be removed because now Dungeon can abuse very strong guards with zero risk for loss. Lossing 7-14 stalkers are noting. Will be alot better if Stalkers have opposed skills on assasins. For exampe they can have 2 shots and not range penalty but will have mele penalty. This will give dungeon very decent shoters for early creeping + blood furys. For late in game you can use Shadow Mistress and Invisibility. Diference is if you loss battle you will have losses because its lvl 6 and you will need time for build and upgrade them. I will like to see in ubi pach general change like this. Now is alot more easy to play dungeon but he is not real improved. Stalkers is not much efective in final battles. If they get 2 shots and not range penalty this will make them efective.
So far change like this is so big and not sure how well. For this i'm support idea for reduced from 3 to 2 turns. This will give dungeon option to continue "abuse" army what other races will can kill too ...and from same time wil make alot hard to abuse very big guards.
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Fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted April 18, 2008 07:37 PM |
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I kinda like the way this is heading - sounds to me as we (no, not all, I don`t ignore you Samiekl) can agree on 4 out of 5 changes as suggested in the MoD here, and that two alternatives are sketched out for the Flaming Ballista, the Zilo variant in the MOD, and Elits suggestion.
I may have got things wrong though, but:
Is it like this Elit, that you can approve the 4 other changes? If so, shouldnt we then just vote for which Flaming alternative to go for, and the winner wins?
Obviously both Elit and Strider must accept those terms first then, I hope its not more pride involved than making that possible.
Sometimes you gotta agree on not agreeing and make the best out of it. And the best is ONE mod, not two, even if not everyone is 100% satisfied. I can easily live with both Zilos and Elits suggestions when it comes to flaming. But - I cannot live with them both at the same time 
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted April 18, 2008 07:50 PM |
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I also think that some of you have misunderstood... The 5 changes in this first MOD isnt really for balancing... but to FIX huge mistakes in judgment when UBI had a drunken night of programing.
Arcanes - Divine Vengeance - INvisible Stalkers - Flaming Arrows etc etc.. are all things that are silly... its not about balancing towns with these changes, but making the over all game better. Those aspects are BROKEN... screwed up.. not serious aspects of game. So this first MOD is designed to FIX the Broken aspects of the game... and if and when these first trial MOD works... we can then work on a BALANCE MOD that changes aspects of EVERY town to balance the entire game.
I would love to see a balance MOD down the road that changes this and that from each town to fine toon each town so as to balance the entire game. But we need to start small at first. FIX the major problems in game, and then later work on perfecting the balance in the game.
I dont want to insult anyone here... but anyone who thinks that Invisible stalkers creeping as they are now is a GOOD aspect to this game is just plain silly and doesnt have a good grasp on reality. Same goes for Divine Vengeance and Arcanes, etc....
To sum it up... This first MOD is for fixing problems NOT balancing the towns.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted April 18, 2008 07:59 PM |
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Quote:
samiekl: I dont like "Invisibility" on Stalkers. For me this skill need to be removed because now Dungeon can abuse very strong guards with zero risk for loss. Lossing 7-14 stalkers are noting. Will be alot better if Stalkers have opposed skills on assasins. For exampe they can have 2 shots and not range penalty but will have mele penalty. This will give dungeon very decent shoters for early creeping + blood furys. For late in game you can use Shadow Mistress and Invisibility. Diference is if you loss battle you will have losses because its lvl 6 and you will need time for build and upgrade them. I will like to see in ubi pach general change like this. Now is alot more easy to play dungeon but he is not real improved. Stalkers is not much efective in final battles. If they get 2 shots and not range penalty this will make them efective.
So far change like this is so big and not sure how well. For this i'm support idea for reduced from 3 to 2 turns. This will give dungeon option to continue "abuse" army what other races will can kill too ...and from same time wil make alot hard to abuse very big guards.
you know what i'd do to dungeon elit? 1. remove invis from stalkers and leave them melee with better stats, but give no range penalty to assassins. 2.change destruction formula 3. switch summoning with dark
i would test this and see how it goes then implement more changes if they are necessary.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted April 19, 2008 11:50 AM |
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Quote:
Sometimes you gotta agree on not agreeing and make the best out of it. And the best is ONE mod, not two, even if not everyone is 100% satisfied. I can easily live with both Zilos and Elits suggestions when it comes to flaming. But - I cannot live with them both at the same time
Exactly! Well said.
Regarding the amount of MOD changes - Jinxer pointed it out concisely that the TOH MOD is about FIXING not messing with the overwhelming balance issues. Don't forget that NIVAL already started out with the idea of making perfect balanced game. Obviously, they failed at some aspects and therefore we are fixing them.
Note, that the community would NEVER reach consensus on massive changes as proven already. Besides, the leader of some unknown ppl elit has stated many times that TOTE is "perfect balance play". In conclusion, sticking with this MOD of 5-7 changes is our best shot while waiting for 3.1!
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted April 19, 2008 01:32 PM |
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Quote:
Besides, the leader of some unknown ppl elit has stated many times that TOTE is "perfect balance play". In conclusion, sticking with this MOD of 5-7 changes is our best shot while waiting for 3.1!
LoL
Right is to tell "Secret leader on the evil force who plan to destroy new perfect world"
Its realy funny to read your comments Strider
About MoD and skills for Flaming arrows and Triple balista. How alredy tell its VERY STUPID. For this i dont agree with it.
You give stats from your games"I've had around 20 games in TOTE and in around 50% cases there was NO CHANCE for opponent to destroy ballista unless he had his own." So other 50% your oponent can destroy it? Look prety balanced for me.
About force "frenzy" for get Flaming arrow. Do you understand how many from races dont get much benifist from archery alredy?
Barbarian --> only one native shoter. No need in real archery.
Knight--> Good efective.
Necromancer--> None use WM or Flaming arrows.
Ranger-->archery is very efective.
Runemage-->Averge efective. Tactic+Offensive formation is sure not less good from Flaming Arrows+Tactic or Frenzy.
Warlock->archery for him is HAHAHAHA
Wizard-->archery is best skill for them...but 2% chance for attack.
So when for over half races "archery" is not much useful skill why we need force them to get "frenzy" too?
Example: If you use curent MoD and play map Rat Race(very nice map) with orc your chances will be very low here. Map is not rich from arts befor go in midle. Low chance for orc to protect vs dark spels. His main chance is to be fast with creeping to can go in midle 1st and get few extra arts. Now in this mod you cant get easy Triple balista and cant get Falming arrows+tactics. So how orc will creeping better early from other races when its his MAIN POWER and will get any chances vs other races? I know how many ppl explain how strong is orc triples balsita+flaming arrows...but dont forget he dont have any spels. For orc War machines is same like light spels for all good races and dark for all bad races. Change his triple balista is very bad for him.
I did alredy compromise with me for accept make Flaming arrows more hard to get...but what you want is SO MUCH. About two mods. Yes better will be one. Just remove "bad MoD" what you link now and put better with my suggestion
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This thread is pages long: 
