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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 01:37 PM |
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Quote:
After some thinking ...
To be honest, i'm against the mod, because i can imagine some players bringing this thread up for further mods when they lose games, its happened too many times already, losses ended up as arguments in the forum.
I'm afraid you are right in this one. But then again we have agreed already to limit the MOD only to these 4 and leave the rest, discussed in "letter to Ubi" thread, alone. Also, we are on the same page about necessity of the official patch. Nevertheless, remeber why this MOD project was launched - it is a TENTATIVE measure to correct imbalances while waiting for a patch that may never come out. Basically you are facing the dilemma - play uneven game for unknown time or stop whining and devise the solution yourself!
It's pointless to bring phoenix into this discussion. Then you could continue with "why can you control 1K emeralds with puppet master and 3 ghosts?", etc... Pointless.
In HOF balance between Magic and Might factions was quite good and that is very hard to reach goal in strategy games. TOTE from HOF is not that different imo. Therefore, I strive to correct major factors that might shift this elusive balance!
The Teacher wraped it up perfectly - we need less discussion and more action! Benefits provided by discussion phase have been reaped already. I hope we can devote available energy to determining The TOH MOD specifications!
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 02:14 PM |
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Suggested TOH MOD specifications:
1. Stalkers.
Invisibility length for 2 turns, initiative 9.
This way it's very hard to beat large amounts of lvl 6-7. (Some ppl suggested invisibility for 1 turn but add some extra bonuses).
2. Divine Vengeance.
Dmg formula according to mastery:
none - F*(10+0,5*SP)
basic- F*(10+1*SP)
adv - F*(20+2*SP)
exp - F*(30+3*SP)
This formula preserves the natural difference between Magic and Might factions where Magic will deal ~ 1.5 times more dmg. Might stays mightish. Principle is similar to summon phoenix. Also, total dmg for lvl 4 spell is commensurate for lost hitpoints.
3. Flaming arrows.
Demons - leave as it is OR make Swarming Gate as prerequisite instead of Excruciating Strike (I vote for latter)
Knights - add Divine Guidance to prerequisites
Orcs - add Battle Elation
Necro - add Eternal Servitude (I doubt necro would ever go for it, but the principe should remain)
Ranger - add Aura of Swiftness
Runemage - add Dwarven Luck
Warlock - add Dead Man's Curse
Wizard - add Dead Man's Curse
Now all races would have to invest the same amount of skillpoints as demons in additional good primary skill with moderate probability.
4. Warpath.
Movement bonus 120 points.
Bonus is reduced roughly 3 times. Hero with this perk might gain additional 500 movement points per day.
Please, comment on these and suggest alternatives as well.
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 03:47 PM |
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I vote for:
1./A invisibility down to 2 round agree
1./B initiative down to 9 not agree
we all know that because of low population of dungeon if u loose 3 assassins its not the same if u loose 3 imps. if u go down with init you risk that even slowest shooters (skirmishers, archers,) could attack your stalkers before going invisible. Also it will be impossible to circle around with stalkers against lower init enemies (eg. zombies) If you force dungeon to loose one unit/battle dungeon is dead. No other faction similar to them on this subject. Also these changes together makes stalker almost useless. Dungeon can not afford it, and I dont think that if u make dungeon underpowered gives better balance for the game.
2. ok
3. we can try it and see where it ends
4. ok
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 27, 2008 03:49 PM |
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Both reduce invisibility duration AND decrease initiative in stalkers..?
Why should flaming arrows require another skill? That could lead to clone heroes always picking 2 skills. If you just add expert bloodrage and 3 perks for instance you can still get a slower start.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 04:43 PM |
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1. Disagree.
2. Maybe is ok.
3. Disagree. Very bad suggestion.
4. Agree.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 04:55 PM |
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There's a reason why flaming ballista is so hard to get with demons.
About stalkers, if you "work" on them then start working on other factions' lineup too, because there are some things that are not very ok there. As kispagat pointed already, not losing creatures is vital for dungeon.
If you decide to make this mod anyway, pls make a "light" version with only warpath and DV changes for people who wont play with your mod. 
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 05:33 PM |
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Please, try to answer in a form similar to Kispagat's reply. Meaning - if you object then propose a counter solution.
Regarding stalker initiative drop. My whole point was to reduce possibility of attacking too strong neutrals. Even with invisibility 2 and 7 stacks of 1 stalker with initiative 12, dungeon hero could cast multiple times. Basically, as experienced by some fellow players - inivisibiliy of two turns is not really a solution. Therefore, my intention was to potentially reduce the amount of stalkers going invisible. With initiative 9 most shooters would have a chance to hit and dragons to fly over...
I projected that at least 3-4 stalkers would still go invisible effectively reducing the number of hero's casts (approximately 5-7 times with 1 surviving stalker). IMO losing 6 stalkers to kill for instance 15 dragons is not a big sacrifice. Although, Kispagat is absolutely correct about low numbers, seems that population growth + lvl 1 dwelling + starting troops is enough for hard fight management. After all - it would be utopian thinking of preserving all stalkers intact.
For instance, russian mod abolished invisibility all together giving stalkers some big bonuses instead. Personally I don't think we should follow this path as the ability is very interesting and makes game more versatile. Basically, we have to design stalker in a way that prevents dungeon from taking utopia, etc. with 7 stalkers alone. Task is simple but hard to realize. So, don't hesitate to come up with your solutions besides criticism!
I believe we can find a consensus on these issues at least among half of the community! And don't take my suggestions as final  We are in the process of finding a way...
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 05:46 PM |
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My friend, seems that you completely fail to see my point. What the hell is wrong with 6 stalkers taking utopia and necro with 2 vampires is ok??? now im asking you once and for all... IS DUNGEON FREAKING OVERPOWERED??? If the answer is no, then it's simple... no need to change anything. another thing... IS ANY FACTION FREAKING OVERPOWERED??? Answer that and then you will see what NEEDS to be changed.
Is DV FREAKING OVERPOWERED? Yes, change it. you get my point?
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valkyrica
Supreme Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 06:11 PM |
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Flaming arrows is so much worse than the stalker crap.
The ability to deal more damage than your whole army can from the distance is, to me, overpowered, especially in orc's hands.
Skip creeping and assume you clear as fast as your opponent. But on 1 town maps where it can take out 1 of your stacks with its 3 shots, then i find that unbalancing, yes.
I've had it happen in my last game where I just couldn't reach the ballista in time to kill it and 5/7 of his stacks were neutralized (imbue blind + unicorns).
I would trade my favorite enemy, my ability to cast spells for him not having that ballista anytime.
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I'm Guybrush Threepwood, mighty pirate
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 06:27 PM |
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Ballista in counterable on any kind of map.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 27, 2008 06:47 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 18:50, 27 Mar 2008.
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When under the effects of staff and -1 speed yes it's hard to counter but that's not a normal situation. In my games against fortress it's usually destroyed in the first round because the opponent got initiative artifacts.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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valkyrica
Supreme Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 08:03 PM |
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Quote:
When under the effects of staff and -1 speed yes it's hard to counter but that's not a normal situation. In my games against fortress it's usually destroyed in the first round because the opponent got initiative artifacts.
Well given the fact that there were 2 weeks of no creature growth, that's normal, but either way, it dealt too much damage, damn ballista !
I demand vengeance (non-divine) !
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I'm Guybrush Threepwood, mighty pirate
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 27, 2008 08:14 PM |
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You will have it
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Zilonite
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 08:56 PM |
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Regarding exact proposals:
1.a/duration - yes
1.b/ini - may be yes (although Kispagat made fair point on this)
2.Yes (although i was too lazy to check out the formula  , for my rare games its good nuff if DV is considerably weakened)
3.Yes (but not sure bout prerequisits - may be they should be not that harsh)
4.Yes
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted March 27, 2008 11:01 PM |
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Quote:
What the hell is wrong with 6 stalkers taking utopia and necro with 2 vampires is ok???
Lets be realistic... is it really possible to take Utopia with only 2 Vamp Lords?? If so I am WAYYY behind the learning curve..
But I think thats the point!! It is completely unrealistic to take A Utopia with only 6 stalkers. If you can take such battles with your day 1 starting army... then whats the point in creeping? No challenge? While your opponent is busting his but trying to minimize losses.
Something needs done about stalker creeping..... I agree dropping invisible to max 2 turns.. and lowering initiative so makes it riskier to try and fight huge fights with only your level 1.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 27, 2008 11:48 PM |
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Edited by samiekl at 23:51, 27 Mar 2008.
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Quote:
Lets be realistic... is it really possible to take Utopia with only 2 Vamp Lords?? If so I am WAYYY behind the learning curve...
yes it is. You can do it with a few skeletons too(and now the level of the creature, stalkers vs vampires, wont be controversial)
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted March 28, 2008 01:06 AM |
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Hmmm.... so please explain.. cause I am apparantly a big time newbie. I enter battle with ONLY 2 Vampires... now lets assume none of the dragons can reach me turn 1, when they do get to me turn 2.. they will hit me once and i will be dead. So even if I had unlimited raise dead mana... how do I keep the 2 vampires alive?? Sorry but I must be the dumbest Lord in TOH.
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted March 28, 2008 08:01 AM |
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Edited by DIEGIS at 08:21, 28 Mar 2008.
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Quote:
... Sorry but I must be the dumbest Lord in TOH.
HAHAHA, yes i want to know as well...pls enlight me too samiekl!
And with skeletons...I want to be a skeleton...tell us!
Man, I know you are persistent... Try some other faction or accept the changes man!
eg, I am not going to have anymore games against those stalkers: the win precent against them is very low, in my case...dont know others.
Samie,never seen a much more persistent person in my life...sometimes you should know when to stop....
1. Stalkers.
Invisibility length for 1 turns, initiative 9.
I dont understand why should they get any bonuses?!they already have some!
2. Divine Vengeance.
Dmg formula according to mastery:
none - F*(10+0,5*SP)
basic- F*(10+1*SP)
adv - F*(20+2*SP)
exp - F*(30+3*SP)-agree
3. Flaming arrows.not sure
4. Warpath.agree
____________
dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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Zilonite
Famous Hero
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posted March 28, 2008 08:33 AM |
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Edited by Zilonite at 10:04, 28 Mar 2008.
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Quote:
Why should flaming arrows require another skill? That could lead to clone heroes always picking 2 skills. If you just add expert bloodrage and 3 perks for instance you can still get a slower start.
Took your thought as an inspiration How about this alternative change proposal on Flaming Arrows matter:
Orc:
Archery + Frenzy --> Flaming Arrows
Memory of Our Blood + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Knight:
Archery+Frenzy --> Flaming Arrows
Retaliation Strike + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Necro:
Archery + Frenzy --> Flaming Arrows
Mark of Necro + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Ranger:
Archery + Frenzy --> Flaming Arrows
Rain of Arrows + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Rune Mage:
Archery + Frenzy --> Flaming Arrows
Greater Rune + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Warlock:
Archery + Frenzy --> Flaming Arrows
Elemental Vision + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Wizard:
Archery + Frenzy --> Flaming Arrows
Consume Artifact + Ballista --> Tripple Ballista
Demons stay as they are now
This way all races will have roughly the same prerequisits as Demons has now. Flaming Arrows still will be fairly easy to get, if somebody would be really determined to do it (only 3 skills involved). Yet getting to Tripple Ballista and Flaming Arrows will eat away lots of starting levelups + will force to give up Tactics and Power of Speed perks.
Although, of course, it is not a compromise between all completely different opinions. Yet its the best I can think up to make everyone more or less happy.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted March 28, 2008 08:58 AM |
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1. Stalkers. I hate hit and run ... But to keep realism in game - how can by stalkers so slow (initiative 9) ? They are some kind of thief's, they must by fast to do this dark job They can't by as slow as haven archers ... Things only for balance are no good ...
2.Divine Vengeance. - too powerful, agreed
3.Flaming arrows.not sure
4. Warpath - I like this skill as it is ... I like the filings then having warpath, track down escaping enemy hero fighting everything on my way ... Or escaping from almost impossible situation with this skill ... It's nice, it's bring something new in game ... I like to take a ride on my unicorn Unicorn is not elephant, he must by fast Keep in mind realism is important too for a game ... Nerf this skill so match will kill this skill ... Better need do update old maps to new reality, not game to old outdated maps ... For example Hour Glass - way need to add logistic hut on this map ? Not better to add on map some sand, snow to slow down some logistic like factions and speed up this way academy and Fortress ? Walking on sand and snow even stalkers will by not so good at creeping Good map must use all possibility that game offer. If this skill overpowered way people take swift mind ?
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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