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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2008 12:26 PM |
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Main problem for me in this mod is changes on Flaming arrows/triple ballista. We dont need to change Triple balista only Flaming arrow. We have 2 suggestion and Strider put his in MoD befor real debat.
Discussions went on for a month. To summarize - flaming arrows on MOST 1-2 town maps with final around week 3-5 are huge power. If you go for that power then be ready to pay - NO FREE LUNCH.
Basically, discussion here is only about "frenzy" and majority of us went for a "trade-off" approach rather than "all possible play". With the TRADE-OFF present it's acctually highly probable that games will be more versatile this way. If a player is desperately looking for tactics then don't count on getting the uber power as well...
In general, economic theories have proven that opportunity cost of choice requires more efficient resource planning, strategic approach and specialization. All these aforementioned elements facilitate more diversified development scenarious of our beloved game. Try it and enjoy it!
Look hard to agree eatch other 
I will try to give my arguments if they can change your mind.
We all know Flaming arrow are very strong but main vs high lvl units. In both sugestion you will can get it after lvl 15-16 so its will prevent early kill strong lvl 6-7 guards on map. War Machines are very good for creeping in begining but not much useful in abit long game (after week 4) if you dont have flaming arrow. So when we all know "power" on Triple balista+flaming arrow ....most from us kill balista in final battles befor he shot. On week 4 you have enough army to kill it. I dont think its "waste" shot/spel for killing balista in final battle when he can kill alot from your 7 lvl. From other side after killing balsita all War Machines +flaming arrow are wasted skills and unseless in battle. When you can loss so easy your "powerful balista" in final battle why need to be forced to get "frenzy" ? On most smal maps your lvls are not much over 20 and you will "waste" alot lvls to get Flaming arrows. For me its look realy stupid to force some one to waste skill for "frenzy". This mean you will have on lvl 18-20 (in your MoD) Only your special race skill+War Machines+attacks to get Falaming arrows+triple balista and can loss it so easy in final battle. So 1 shot/spell will make almsot all your skills unseless. Its NOT right and NOT balanced for me.
NO FREE LUNCH dont mean to PAY FOR NOTING 
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gmmari
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 16, 2008 12:40 PM |
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strider in this i should say i'm agree with elit
Our purpose was to make hard to get flaming and what change using elit skill way?
I think should be fine follow his way for to have for all the same goal balance and an hard way to get flaming i don't find any negative point in his suggestion
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2008 08:17 PM |
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Guys, it's already a huge breakthrough that we agreed on hardening prerequisites for Flaming arrows. Now the only dispute is between Zilonite's and Elit's suggestions, namely, if prerequisites should include frenzy (thus disabling tactics).
It's simple - if you think that tactics is better in end game, then take that...if flaming, then don't count on it. For reference, I've had around 20 games in TOTE and in around 50% cases there was NO CHANCE for opponent to destroy ballista unless he had his own.
Good example what happens when you have tactics AND flaming:
game with Fraudatio, final week 5, my ebba vs. his nymus...tactics enabled me to get over the field AND ballista killed his. Result after my first 4 moves was that THERE WAS NO WAY for him to kill my ballista (unless cold death, which is real "smart" for inferno)...
Bottomline, imo tactics and Flaming should represent this opportunity cost of choice. Besides, is this so big a difference as to continue arguing, instead of trying out the MOD???
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Fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2008 08:44 PM |
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What I am most happy to see is that it is constructive discussions!! Thanks guys.
I think it makes sense that you have to chose between tactic (that is very good skill) and flaming arrows - which if you get it is also a brilliant skill. Is the choice obvious? I dont think so, and thus you can still surprise your opponents Elit, at least to a certain extent!
If you for some reason want to go for flaming (using like 10-12 levels just to get there with that plus WM), you have to skip something. Well, at least I think so. And now the Flaming option wont be as obvious as before, which I think we all agree on.
Its not like Zilos suggestion is heaven and Elits is trahs, I just find Zilos to be a bit better, I think it makes sense to give up an attack perk.
Anyway, what I most of all look forward to is not beeing rushed by Strider and his crazy gang as fast as before, I take it this will slow them down at least 2 days
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fiur
Promising
Supreme Hero
Map Creator
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posted April 16, 2008 09:42 PM |
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Anyway, what I most of all look forward to is not beeing rushed by Strider and his crazy gang as fast as before, I take it this will slow them down at least 2 days
and maybe 3 more ingame hours
but what I really like to see on a toh mod is like... when you get spells from pyramides an mage vaults... make them your native ones!!
I hate to visit 3-4 or maybe more vaults/pyramides to learn nothing...
just what I like to see maybe a few more guys...?
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2008 09:50 PM |
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Full agree with Fiur for spels.
I dont know why this MoD is not start with it...when its pure BUG in ToTe and kill game balance alot more.
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Fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2008 10:28 PM |
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Full agree with Fiur for spels.
I dont know why this MoD is not start with it...when its pure BUG in ToTe and kill game balance alot more.
Well, here i disagree with both Fiur and Elit 100% Its not a bug at all if you ask me, and it makes it a bit more interesting to visit stuff, the feature of learning the spell even if you dont have the skill yet is brilliant.
So I get vampirism - oh well, may consider Dark then  I don`t like the certainity of "always getting resurrection" etc, the uncertainity makes it impossible (or at least stupid) to put all the money on one horse (like poenix etc). You gotta have more horses to play!
Good job Nival!
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2008 10:33 PM |
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Well, here i disagree with both Fiur and Elit 100% Its not a bug at all if you ask me, and it makes it a bit more interesting to visit stuff, the feature of learning the spell even if you dont have the skill yet is brilliant.
So I get vampirism - oh well, may consider Dark then I don`t like the certainity of "always getting resurrection" etc, the uncertainity makes it impossible (or at least stupid) to put all the money on one horse (like poenix etc). You gotta have more horses to play!
Hmm, I agree with Fraudatio here as it really keeps in line with the concept of multilateral game scenario development.
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted April 16, 2008 11:05 PM |
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the randomness does all the fun, besides , if u plan to surprise your opponent with some "crazy" build then the only chance to rely on is those banks, in order to get the desired spell, matter of luck too , ofc, but thats the beatuy, to explore too, not checking 2 points and fill up the spellbook.
else game is too straight, , if u know the map has 1 pyramid and 1 vault , and he has light , definetelly he will have all spells, its too predictable.
i liked the changed in tote, really.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 07:15 AM |
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Quote:
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Well, here i disagree with both Fiur and Elit 100% Its not a bug at all if you ask me, and it makes it a bit more interesting to visit stuff, the feature of learning the spell even if you dont have the skill yet is brilliant.
So I get vampirism - oh well, may consider Dark then I don`t like the certainity of "always getting resurrection" etc, the uncertainity makes it impossible (or at least stupid) to put all the money on one horse (like poenix etc). You gotta have more horses to play!
Hmm, I agree with Fraudatio here as it really keeps in line with the concept of multilateral game scenario development.
When you playing main smal maps where most important skill is War Machines you realy cant understand for what i'm talk. Its sure BUG. Good players know how to make plan and follow it. Planing your game is key. In HoF you can choice not native town spel skill and learn both lvl 5 spels from utopia. Its normal to expect when you up 2 spel skills utopia to give you from them. Now only luck decide what you will get and its not make game better or more fun. I have horible stats on HG with spels. My last 14 games only 3 i have resurect. Only 1 from games SQ79 not have resurect and 1-2 for kispagat. So its cost me ~7-8 loss one after other when i did very good games...but i cant get NATIVE SPELS. Try to calculate what is chance when every game i up lvl 5 on my town and learn 2 spels befor get utopia and Pyramind. From them i can lern 3-4 spels and alredy know 2 spels. Total spels lvl 5 in game are 10 and i cant get what i need 80% from my last 14 games. Its not fun and kill balance.
I dont think we can agree with MoD...and i know ppl who will be more happy to play what i'm suggest. So will be cool if Cepheus can make second MoD with this changes:
1. Invisibility ability of stalker and shadow mistress reduced from 3 to 2 turns.
2. Divine Vengeance formula changed to this:
none - F*(10+0,5*SP)
basic- F*(10+1*SP)
adv - F*(20+2*SP)
exp - F*(30+3*SP)
3. Reqest for get Flaming Arrows
-->Barbarian: Memory of our Blood+Powerful Blow+Might Over Magic.
-->Knight: Benediction+Expert Trainer+Retaliation Strike
-->Necromancer: Banshee Howl+Eternal Servitude+Mark of the Necromancer
-->Ranger: Deadeye Shot+Imbue Arrow+Rain of Arrows
-->Runemage: Fine Rune+Greater Rune+Refresh Rune
-->Warlock: Dark Ritual+Elemental Vision+Empowered Spells
-->Wizard: Consume Artifact+Magic mirror+Mark of the Wizard
4. Warpath bonus reduced from 350 movement points to 122.5 points.
5. Force arrow ability removed from Arcane archers.
6. Utopia and other similar bildings to give spels from what skill you have and after it to give random.
For sure this will be better MoD and more ppl will use him
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 08:31 AM |
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So will be cool if Cepheus can make second MoD with this changes:
Disappointing. There is abosolutely no need for further community splitting. If you don't like the MOD, play 3.0. During last month you have stated many times that original TOTE is balanced and "many funs to do play" - stick with it then. It's free choice. Funny, how you have fell in love with this modding idea just now...
For the sake of integrity there can be only one TOH MOD. Otherwise, ppl will just repulse the whole idea.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 09:32 AM |
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To summarize, the community has largely agreed on these amendments that The TOH MOD will contain:
1. Diminish Stalker invisibility effect.
2. Reduce Divine Vengeance damage.
3. Make Flaming arrows harder to attain.
4. Warpath bonus must be reduced.
Obviously, list of total needed amendments is considerably longer, yet we have decided to include only MAJOR imbalances in the mod. If the community reaches a mutual agreement the current 4 fixes could be complemented with few more.
At present moment we still have to reach consensus about HOW EXACTLY these imbalances should be changed. I believe we can fulfill this task quite soon and move on to the actual creation of The TOH MOD. People, please, be proactive and voice your suggestions!
It's your 1st post and reqest. If you look my comments i'm agree with 1,2,4 and 5 for remove Force arrow ability from Arcane archers. So far if we talk for unbalances in ToTe here have one big "BUG" and its how Utopia and other bildings give spels now. Its 1st what need to be Fix in this mod!
About Flaming arrows. You did one reqest and put totaly diferent in MoD. Why you are suprised i dont agree? I think you are not right and for this i post my opinion. Look like you are not open for any debat so i will stop post.
HF with your MoD.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 10:49 AM |
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1. Disagree.
2. Maybe is ok.
3. Disagree. Very bad suggestion.
4. Agree.
Here is your post from March 27 on this thread. Before and after that you have stated that TOTE is BALANCED and ONLY warpath, arcane and this ambiguous spell acquisition mechanism (that many disagree with you) needs to be changed. In latest posts you EVEN DECLARED that DV is ok. It's hard to have a decent argument with a person who is swaying in wind like an over-inflated balloon ready to burst...
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 11:53 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
1. Disagree.
2. Maybe is ok.
3. Disagree. Very bad suggestion.
4. Agree.
Here is your post from March 27 on this thread. Before and after that you have stated that TOTE is BALANCED and ONLY warpath, arcane and this ambiguous spell acquisition mechanism (that many disagree with you) needs to be changed. In latest posts you EVEN DECLARED that DV is ok. It's hard to have a decent argument with a person who is swaying in wind like an over-inflated balloon ready to burst...
LoL you realy need to stop manipulate and trick ppl.
You are out my words from contest. On same page from 27 March you did suggest what all ppl refuse and i did my answer too.
Quote:
Suggested TOH MOD specifications:
1. Stalkers.
Invisibility length for 2 turns, initiative 9.
This way it's very hard to beat large amounts of lvl 6-7. (Some ppl suggested invisibility for 1 turn but add some extra bonuses).
3. Flaming arrows.
Demons - leave as it is OR make Swarming Gate as prerequisite instead of Excruciating Strike (I vote for latter)
Knights - add Divine Guidance to prerequisites
Orcs - add Battle Elation
Necro - add Eternal Servitude (I doubt necro would ever go for it, but the principe should remain)
Ranger - add Aura of Swiftness
Runemage - add Dwarven Luck
Warlock - add Dead Man's Curse
Wizard - add Dead Man's Curse
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If you chek my explain from March 28 you will see why i'm disagree.
About DV. I dont see any bad if ppl change his view after test how spels/stufs work. I have few games where DV not change battle and only balance it. Have few games (half from them i'm loss) When DV won battles...but its game when other spels almost won final battle befor DV. I'm talk for Vamp,pupet,frenzy. But i'm sure if we make DV less strong it's will not kill balance. For this i dont mind so much if we make its less strong.
About spels from utopia. Many ppl agree with me but dont bother to post.
Play your MoD and be happy.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 17, 2008 12:04 PM |
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For the record I hate the utopia thingy.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 01:43 PM |
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You are out my words from contest. On same page from 27 March you did suggest what all ppl refuse and i did my answer too.
Quote:
Suggested TOH MOD specifications:
1. Stalkers.
Invisibility length for 2 turns, initiative 9.
Wups, you're right here... I missed that initiative post, sorry.
Here is you original post from old thread:
Elit: "I'm agree with you Strider...here need new pach.
1. Heroes need to can learn from spel bildings only spels for what they have skill. Now is silly and you cant plan your game.
2. Arcane Archer and Stalker need to have ini 9-10.
3. Divine Vengeance is so powerful need be decrease
4. Warpath need to be decreased too...maybe 100 is ok.
5. Swift mind need to be more hard for get from Dungeon/Academy.
6. Familiar ground need to be decrease from 2 to 1.
7. Counterspell need work correct."
Btw, where did you lose that thought about swift mind? I remember that later on you fiercefully argued against changing it...
About ppl who "agree but don't post": persuade them to do so as Elvin just did. After all this thread is the only means of democracy for this MOD. If one keeps silent during creation process, one should remain silent later. That's a pay for laziness or passiveness.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 02:15 PM |
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Edited by samiekl at 14:29, 17 Apr 2008.
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Strider, every time someone goes against the mod you ignore the post, so why should anyone post if they disagree as long as this mod will be with changes you agree upon?
I asked you why is it mod necessary as long as every faction can beat any other faction on any map? What are those 'major imbalances' that kill your chances to win even if you play perfectly? What faction is overpowered?
You complain about flaming arrows being easy to get and people can creep fast. So what?? If you want to have a harder game and more "adrenaline"-ized, then dont go for warmachines. Plain and simple. People can play this game in the way they want, be it harder or easier. Whats wrong with that? If you always play things that work and are desperate to win and get points, you'll soon get bored, so... play things that usually dont work and make them work. Got it? Or just play for the win...
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 04:20 PM |
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Strider, every time someone goes against the mod you ignore the post, so why should anyone post if they disagree as long as this mod will be with changes you agree upon?
Hey, this MOD actually is not about my wishes! Here is what I wrote a week ago:
"This thread is all about democracy and the TOH MOD is a product of the whole community. If I had it my way there would be ~20 changes."
Just check my post in "TOH fan letter to UBI" on March 23 and post in this thread on March 27. You might notice that the TOH MOD is very different from my own suggestions. Conclusions - the MOD incorporates the community's (in general) wishes! Using elit's words - accusations that I enforce my will on the MOD are "manipulations and trickery".
Btw, it's funny how the situation is twisted. elit, tell me how is it different that you want to make a mod with "your" changes disregarding wishes of other people? As I see it you use pure demagogy to promote your own ideas... Take a look in mirror.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 05:32 PM |
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There you go again, ignoring every question i ask... Please read my previous post and try to answer my questions. Otherwise it's no use of continuing this "debate".
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 05:58 PM |
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I asked you why is it mod necessary as long as every faction can beat any other faction on any map? What are those 'major imbalances' that kill your chances to win even if you play perfectly? What faction is overpowered?
This whole thread is about imbas like DV, stalkers, flaming, warpath, arcanes... read the previous posts. On the other hand - if everything is balanced then you obviously don't need to play the MOD. It's free choice and both players need to agree with it.
Quote:
If you want to have a harder game and more "adrenaline"-ized, then dont go for warmachines. Plain and simple. People can play this game in the way they want, be it harder or easier. Whats wrong with that?
You sure can do it. But if your oppoenent doesn't then you're at disadvantage. Also, between two ppl you can agree on any rules you want, e.g., no w/m at all, no logistics heroes, no lvl 7 creatures, no flying camera...do as you see fit.
The TOH MOD should be a uniform way for any two players to have a game that fixes obvious imbas (if both think there are any). Then they might use this MOD as a remedy for that, if both agree. Simple as that.
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