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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 12:32 PM |
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 About Flaming Arrows.
I'm glad that finally we have reached some consensus - Elit's and our proposals are quite similar in skillpoint count. The only difference is whether there should be a TRADE-OFF when striving for Flaming arrows. I definetely suggest Zilo's system because:
1. Opportunity Cost. Exactly how Teacher explained this - "there is no free lunch"! If you are going for powerful tool then be prepared to give up something in the process.
2. Options. Following previous statement, having to forgo skills like tactics, power of speed, etc. will make more DIVERSE games as players might choose to avoid Flaming arrows to acquire these perks. Basically, the game will be LESS DULL with system requiring frenzy.
About Arcane archers.
Obviously, I agree with Zilo and Elit here. Yet we would be facing Sq's greatest fear that this Mod would never stop developing. Where to draw the line?? Personally, I'd definetely include Swift mind, Saboteur ability as well...Then there were Jinxer's suggestions about sylvan, orcs, assasins... Basically, if community agrees then it's fine but is it really possible? 
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perathekojot
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 03:23 PM |
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Hi, to you all. Been reading this thread with outmost interest. Reason why? Because if you succeed in making this mod and getting it accept by TOH community it will change game in more way that most of us probably imagine. Here's my reasoning: the main goal is to get a balanced game. But which game is more balanced: one with four major imbalances or the one with only one. So if you reduce dv damage, stalkers ability and make flaming arrows harder to get (do not consider warpath imbalanced since its very map dependant) you will leave only one, and that one will make game more imbalanced than it was before. Arcane archers, enough said. So what will happen? There will be more sylvan clans as ever before, most of us will either play sylvan vs. sylvan and prey for Wyngaal, or won't play against sylvan or this mode. It's a shame that, because of already existing imbalances, there are factions that are played less and less. This mode will just make really competitive races even fewer. Just look at new clans. No necro, haven, only one dungeon and inferno clan. But, hey, there are more sylvan clans then those four I mentioned. So I don't think strenghtening sylvan is right way to go. I would rather reduced arcane archers damage output (in what way community finds right) and find a way to strenghten necro, and even haven and inferno. Reason: if you are already going to make an effort to make a game more balanced and interesting, wouldn't it be better, to spent some more time making mode (and for rest of us, to spend more time learning rest of changes), and have in the end more interesting and challenging game, where most of people would play random map and races, and thus make every game a suprise and mind challenging, something that this game had stopped being for quite a few of us. Finally, I think, we should at least make a vote, and see what happens. Obviously, if you got only few votes altogether, then there is no need for such a mode and you shouldn't proceed with it, since it would just make a game more confusing for rest of community. Thanks for reading, and hopefully considering my post.
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Arangar
Famous Hero
Weak ranger - lost viking
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posted March 30, 2008 08:15 PM |
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pera.. meet para
Being an old Heroes addict myself, I realize how important it is to reach the finish line first.. but still, a few paragraphs wouldn't hurt
Couldn't help myself 
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Arangar
Norwegian viking
ranger of the north
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perathekojot
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 09:39 PM |
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Fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 09:54 PM |
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Some good points Pera - specially one thing you say that I`d like to stress - we need a broad contribution to the poll, if not "everyone" follows the discussion, we will split the community and make it harder for new players in.
Dont know how many, but I guess at least 20-30+ ??
I guess we will have several poll rounds aswell to get to agreement, so many opportunities to get people involved 
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gmmari
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 11:12 PM |
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Good post pera congrats
If we want to reach a balance we should consider all not only something.
If we have 5 power and we cancel 4 of this 1 will still remain and all will follow that way..
what are the best faction that need to be weaked?
Dwarf,Sylvan,academy,dungeon and orc are really the best and in this order..agree??
Now we are planning to cancel invisibilty and flaming to orc..what will remain after our work?
Sylvan will start to rule with his elven and dwarf with his rune will be really a good job??
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted March 31, 2008 12:14 AM |
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Given the lack of consensus why all the hate for "Nival's ***y balancing"? Shouldn't people who play a certain clan not have a say because they are biased...or is everyone being completely unbiased?
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 07:11 AM |
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Edited by Elit at 07:35, 31 Mar 2008.
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Sylvan alredy is most strong race...and all sugestion here for mod affect other races ...but not Sylvan. After all my post/coments result is: "good to hear what you think but we dont care" and ppl plan to do his personal mod. So no point to waste time for commennts/suggestion or use mod later.
All coments against Triple Balista and Flaming Arrows come from Sylvan clans.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 08:30 AM |
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Quote:
Given the lack of consensus why all the hate for "Nival's ***y balancing"? Shouldn't people who play a certain clan not have a say because they are biased...or is everyone being completely unbiased?
As far as I know, almost all games in TOH are played full random. Same goes for my clan or the clans we have been playing against - all matches were random. Personally I've played full random almost for a year now. My last game as sylvan was at least half a year ago if I remember correctly. Bottomline, experienced memebers here care about game balance in general, imo.
Actually, now that you have touched this subject, I wonder about some particular other player's motivation in this mod project 
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 08:44 AM |
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Quote:
About Arcane archers.
Obviously, I agree with Zilo and Elit here. Yet we would be facing Sq's greatest fear that this Mod would never stop developing. Where to draw the line?? Personally, I'd definetely include Swift mind, Saboteur ability as well...Then there were Jinxer's suggestions about sylvan, orcs, assasins... Basically, if community agrees then it's fine but is it really possible?
Again, there is no problem making The TOH MOD as comprehensive as possible as long as community can reach a common ground. Already in "TOH fan letter to Ubi" (page 5) thread I suggested the whole list of changes but faced mostly alienation. Perhaps now with the second wave we can include arcane archers, swift mind, saboteurs and maybe few more in the MOD
Elit and other guys, who initiated the second wave of MOD enlargement, go on and promote this idea. I'll support you on this issue. Personally I'm tired of fighting with windmill (I know that some really honorable TOH veterans feel the same)...
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 09:04 AM |
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Major unbalances is DV and Stalker invisibility...its all what need be emergency to be improved.
For me personal new spels sistem is BUG. Spels from utopia or other similar bildings need to give 1st spels from same skills what you have and after it to give random from other skills. Now you cant plan your game and stupid luck, what you will get decide all. Its major unbalance BUG.
I dont want so much to change Flaming Arrows...and if we make it need be minimal like add skill from special skills not trade for another good skill. MoD need to have minimal changes. Swif mind is very important for mage races and its NO need to be changed.
When sylvan is most strong race now...and change Flaming Arrows or Triple balista or Swift Mind not affect abilitys on Sylvan creeping....how this mod will balance game better?
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valkyrica
Supreme Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 09:26 AM |
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Quote:
When sylvan is most strong race now...and change Flaming Arrows or Triple balista or Swift Mind not affect abilitys on Sylvan creeping....how this mod will balance game better?
If we all change our clan affiliation from sylvan to any other could you please stop the whining against Sylvan ?
This is not the point here, who belongs to what clan, it's about, how Strider depicted it, balance. Flaming arrows is overpowered, no matter the race. The multiple references to the ORC/Flaming arrows combo is because they use it more efficiently than any other race.
Slowly everyone will either ignore orc clans and/or impose rules about flaming arrows and/or play with Academy.
Pure might can win w/o ballista and no spells if you're decent and, to a medium degree, a bit lucky, there's no need for the "sure win factor", personally i won't get flaming arrows, no matter the race I play, i find it too boring.
85% of the game you play in "single mode", don't you get ultimately bored of beating everything on quick combat and then whining about the other's long turns ?
Or, maybe, we should have scripted huts that give you triple ballista and flaming arrows (where's the case) for 1000 gold, just to even out the creeping till the final battle.
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I'm Guybrush Threepwood, mighty pirate
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 09:53 AM |
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"Major unbalances is DV and Stalker invisibility...its all what need be emergency to be improved."
Agree with Elit here ... Hope we don't want to create Heroes 6 with this mode, patch 3.1 will come (i hope soon), we need an emergency mod, not mod to fix all in this imperfect world We can end up with community divided, playing different modes, or some players can stop play at all .... TOH is small community and this coming mod can have devastating effect ...
About Dungeon Armageddon, i think it's imbalanced too, my Sylvan army died in one cast of Armageddon casted by Firedragon on HG. Firt battle he hit and run with Sinitar 30% of my army dead ... Second battle he come only with Sinitar with black dragons, Armageddon, all dead
How about Stronghold, i hit in Orcs units and i feel i hit stone not flesh ... Blood rage take all damage ... I think orcs are real imba ...
How about Dwarfs late game, this imba runes, this mega town defense ?
How about Necros, are frenzy and puppet master balanced ?
To Pera - try play against Catana necros and you will see how "underpowered" they are ....
Leave Sylvan alone, they are far not the most imba faction in H5 ...
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 09:58 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
When sylvan is most strong race now...and change Flaming Arrows or Triple balista or Swift Mind not affect abilitys on Sylvan creeping....how this mod will balance game better?
If we all change our clan affiliation from sylvan to any other could you please stop the whining against Sylvan ?
This is not the point here, who belongs to what clan, it's about, how Strider depicted it, balance. Flaming arrows is overpowered, no matter the race. The multiple references to the ORC/Flaming arrows combo is because they use it more efficiently than any other race.
Slowly everyone will either ignore orc clans and/or impose rules about flaming arrows and/or play with Academy.
Pure might can win w/o ballista and no spells if you're decent and, to a medium degree, a bit lucky, there's no need for the "sure win factor", personally i won't get flaming arrows, no matter the race I play, i find it too boring.
85% of the game you play in "single mode", don't you get ultimately bored of beating everything on quick combat and then whining about the other's long turns ?
Or, maybe, we should have scripted huts that give you triple ballista and flaming arrows (where's the case) for 1000 gold, just to even out the creeping till the final battle.
1. You not answer on my qestion.
2. I dont have problem to fight vs orc. He is normal strong...but on 2-3 week maps he is monster.
3. Most from my games i dont use with main hero War Machines or Flaming Arrows ...its waste on skills...only for orc its good.
4. For my clan faction (wizard) will be better if we make more weak Flaming Arrows and Triple balliasta. I dont have any advantage to be against it.
5. Read my suggestion up for "change reqests for Flaming Arrows". Its will need ~15-16 lvls to get it max early. Look balanced enough...and not reqest "bad" skills. I dont like Zilo/Strider suggestion for sacrifice one skill for other to get it. Need to have max possible diferent tactics for play.
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gmmari
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 11:01 AM |
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Dwarf and sylvan are better already now.
Dungeon don't have many chance against a sylvan or dwarf in large and rich map and invisibility is good only for creeping,in final battle scout can go to take the coffee waiting to be killed by dragon or arcane.
we are talking about flaming but arcane have "flaming arrow"!
If we touch something we have to touch all not only stupid stalker or some perk or let all in this way.
when developer built tote sure he not was thinking to our clan game online and now we can't start a game considering the best faction against another one because we have choosen the faction before..
When we have choosen a clan we have considered all this imbalancing
and now to change only a little thing could be really a bad idea
Now if i want to fight against a sylvan clan i need to choose well map and to be lucky in some init artie in my castle or i am dead.
Valkirica i don't want that you change clan but also me and my friend are always seen like the bad people that use invisibilty(and you want that i change i change?)..and this topic started against stalker not arcane..
last night i have lost a game against ylthin (2 stack of 100 arcane in the 2 corner of battlefield killed me 35 black dragon in first shoot!after my hero cast a terrible shower that kill 1 stack,50 druid and all dancer but after this all my army was destroyed by dragon and uni!)this is balance?
(i have also ring of speed with me..but he found staff and ring of celerity..)
About the dwarf better not talking..they have high defemce,resist magic,light and destrustion,RUNES,large army and now in all map also
a logistic hut near castle..
what means here invisibilty of my stalker when now pratically all map have a large garrison that force my faction to wait the other faction
for kill me?
i accept all this and play on this way but i'm really
sad when some people accuse me to be too strong when he have dwarf or sylvan or academy on in his hand
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 11:41 AM |
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Quote:
me and my friend are always seen like the bad people that use invisibilty
hahahaha. this is good.
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gmmari
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 12:04 PM |
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Yes really funny my friend!
Now sylvan clan are 4 maybe i will switch my clan to sylvan clan 5
taking all possible penalties and this problem about the stalker will be finish then the orcs clan will do the same and we start to fight all against the other all sylvan
This will be a funny balance
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 31, 2008 12:50 PM |
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Oh please, let's not be drowned in all the sylvan forces..
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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perathekojot
Known Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 06:15 PM |
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Just watched really funny replay. Arcane archers 105 of them hit black dragon with 5096 damage, killing 16 of them, while few momments before 32 emeralds hit same black dragon stack with 5380 damage. Arcanes got lucky. Stil, it wasn't Ossir, as some of you probably think, otherwise at lvl30 you should add 75% damage to a total of almost 9000 damage. Both heroes were around lvl 30.
So, we all agree that arcanes aren't imba, but lets look to some other lower lvl units and see how many of bears, golems, minos, footmans,... will take to do that kind of damage, not to mention doing it in first strike
Better yet, lets skip lvl 3.
Will go for lvl 4. ....
Make it lvl 5.
Nothing, yet.
lvl 6 - probably few of them can mach this damage, but you got to do it in first turn.
So, here's an interesting question (haven't tried it so I would really like to know, if someone can answer):
How many flame lords, paokai, pit spawn, champions, wraiths, ...
do you need to do that kind of damage, in first strike? Or better yet what month does have final battle to take place, so you could amass such amount of lvl6, considering normal gameplay in terms of building order, costs, ... Or how many of them will survive next shoot from that same stuck of carefully shielded arcane archers.
So I will say it once again: yes there are major imbalances in tote such as: stalkers, flaming arrows with triple ballista, dv, but most of all: arcane archers. Because you can agree on no hit and run and reduce warlock advantage, you can kill ballista (easist way with arcanes, spells, sabotuers, other ballista), you can resist dv, but meeting split stack of arcane archers with ossir or wyngaal is hardest of them all. And if you "balance" all except them, what is left next time when you face arcane "flaming arrows" archers. Taking away swift mind sure is not gonna help.
So fixed them all, 4 or 5 what's a difference.
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diegis
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted March 31, 2008 06:22 PM |
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Edited by diegis at 18:32, 31 Mar 2008.
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Quote:
Yes really funny my friend!
Now sylvan clan are 4 maybe i will switch my clan to sylvan clan 5
taking all possible penalties and this problem about the stalker will be finish then the orcs clan will do the same and we start to fight all against the other all sylvan
This will be a funny balance
Yes, true, what a funny balance...and boring.
Pera is right, now we'll see who's playing for fun and who's playing for points...
As for this, I'll stay Academy 
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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This thread is pages long: 
