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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2009 08:03 AM |
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Edited by Kispagat at 08:04, 13 May 2009.
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Quote:
1. About d/c. This indeed was very embarrassing as there is nothing worse for suspicion as d/c at critical moment. I used a lot of alt-tab during that process and my game froze (it happened periodically for Kis and me). Next time Kis game hung but i got past the wolves. After reload we had first d/c due to net problems (i believe it was my net and i made replay for this battle).
1. No, you had two dc-s there at that time, not freeze.Collapse was on my side and as I remember, when you were fighting.
2. Each attempt, including the one when my comp collapsed took more than an hour for u, and 5 min for me.
3. So why would it take each time more than an hour to fight that battle, if you made basic tactics in game 1 with Gilraen, and when my comp collapsed you managed to finish it? If you were right you needed to repeat it.
2. Replay name. Ofc, i changed the file name before sending it away for reference purposes as wolves2 didn't tell anything. Kis is wrong about number "2" though. All numbers refer to this game. First passing of the block was when his game crashed. This was second passing. After we reloaded i made another replay called wolves3.
Why ofc? I have never experienced that someone edited the name of a save.
For me, h5 shows wolves2. If all numbers refer to this game, and after it, you made another save called wolves 3, could u send me please wolves1 and 3 to get full picture?
Later on I will answer the rest. Msn logs and calls with Zilo cant show anything, since I am 1000% sure that you did not involve Zilo, cuz he would not help in anything like this.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2009 09:18 AM |
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Trust opponent ??? I say the contrary, if technically is so easy to see the save, player must assume that opponent see the save and build strategy on that fact ... Trust in this condition is like full yourself ...
Also i sure many players on TOH use Hero Scanner to see opponent heroes build etc ...
Take a look at this http://forums.ag.ru/?board=heroes5&action=display&s=25&num=1163915086, and this http://rapidshare.com/files/140429501/HeroScaner_310.rar.html
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2009 09:46 AM |
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Quote:
1. No, you had two dc-s there at that time, not freeze.Collapse was on my side and as I remember, when you were fighting.
Our memory failed us both a little bit as it happened 3 weeks ago. I just reviewed msn log and actually all 3 d/c were due to frozen game - 2 times for me and 1 for you. The only difference was that the last d/c was at the very end of turn and the replay "wolves2" comes from here and not when your game collapsed.
Quote:
2. Each attempt, including the one when my comp collapsed took more than an hour for u, and 5 min for me.
Not really true. When my game crashed it was 38 min turn. When yours hung it was 15 min turn. The last crash was after 52 min at the very end of turn (replay).
Quote:
3. So why would it take each time more than an hour to fight that battle, if you made basic tactics in game 1 with Gilraen, and when my comp collapsed you managed to finish it? If you were right you needed to repeat it.
There are several reasons why that turn was so long. 1. Even though i made this as homework, make no mistake-battle is very tricky and i had to calculate atb actions beyond the visible bar. 2. Secondaries had long action too. 3. Preparation, secondaries activities, management etc took some 20-30 min before Talanar had the battle with wolves. The turn where game froze at the end (52 min) was actually the fastest in terms of progress as my movements were repetition and here i had cleared vamps as well. In comparison, in the first crash i had just entered the major battle as i was calculating risks, necessary army composition etc as Gilraen in test had defence, weaker skills, a bit more arcanes and some minor differences.
Quote:
Why ofc? I have never experienced that someone edited the name of a save. For me, h5 shows wolves2. If all numbers refer to this game, and after it, you made another save called wolves 3, could u send me please wolves1 and 3 to get full picture?
I wouldn't deliberately change name if i knew you would be making fuss about it, wouldn't i?  I changed the name so it matches the others throughout the series for reference purposes as i was giving it away. As for others then i don't have wolves1 as game crashed and it was very beginning of battle. But i have wolves3. Once again - the numbers denote the sequence of attacking that block (when Kis game crashed i was still in preparation).
Quote:
Later on I will answer the rest. Msn logs and calls with Zilo cant show anything, since I am 1000% sure that you did not involve Zilo, cuz he would not help in anything like this.
With what Zilo wouldn't help?? I hope you are not accusing me that i discussed with him game strategy at pivotal points before balrogs and crossing your road to staff?? That is my private matter. It's just that i can trash your dirty speculations about save looking only with giving you proof that i spend 2 days of my life deciding what to do. It is proof because i wouldn't bother if i knew that you had failed with your game plan.
For reference, Zilo is honest to the brink. He has never helped me with any inside info during these years! I'm sure anyone who knows him has complete faith in his trustworthiness!
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2009 10:24 AM |
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Edited by Elit at 12:23, 13 May 2009.
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Quote:
Trust opponent ??? I say the contrary, if technically is so easy to see the save, player must assume that opponent see the save and build strategy on that fact ... Trust in this condition is like full yourself ...
Also i sure many players on TOH use Hero Scanner to see opponent heroes build etc ...
Hope you are wrong. I cant belive here have cheat program like it. Hope its cant tell in real time my skills to oponent. Any idea how to prevent it in multiplay games?
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2009 10:37 AM |
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Maybe TOH modding team can find a solution ...
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2009 10:38 AM |
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Quote:
Hope you are wrong. I cant belive here have cheat program like it. Hope its cant tell in real time my skills to oponent. Any idea how to prevent it in multiplay games?
Sadly, you are not wrong. Long ago me and Zilo decided to never mention about it in TOH to save us from this plague. But Infi has proofs that already some players use it. Still, i'm very disappointed about this post as i believe majority of TOHers doesn't know about it.
About the scanner. Initially it was developed as a tool for offline games so save tremendous time of finding right skills in level-ups. Fortunately, it didn't work in multiplayer. But if i understand correctly, then it does work partially. Namely, you cannot plan your own development but can see skills and arts (maybe spells too) of opponent.
I think Infi made mistake publishing this. That is why i play only select number of opponents as it is simply impossible to play without mutual trust - cheating possibilities are all around.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2009 10:41 AM |
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It would've been better if you didn't submit your last post Strider.
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2009 10:53 AM |
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"As for others then i don't have wolves1 as game crashed and it was very beginning of battle. But i have wolves3. Once again - the numbers denote the sequence of attacking that block (when Kis game crashed i was still in preparation)."
You want the communty and me to believe that the mighty, unbeatable, super-precise, every detail Strider begin to number of the saves with "wolves" 2?
Thats ridicolous, its the weakest argument, I have ever heard.
If you dont have wolves 1, its the biggest proof against yourself.
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Typhys
Adventuring Hero
poisonous eye
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posted May 13, 2009 11:01 AM |
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Quote:
It would've been better if you didn't submit your last post Strider.
Explaining how that HeroScanner crap works doesn't mean he uses it in cheating purposes (or use it at all). I know many people (including myself) who know how this works but they never use it - they are suspicion free imo.
The sole mistake was to make an add for this program in this thread...
To stick with the topic ; I dled as much replays as possible and these are quite impressive. But the first links to speedyshare are outdated unfortunately ; I couldn't dl those ('til mid March I believe).
Congratulations to the contenders.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2009 11:03 AM |
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Quote:
If you dont have wolves 1, its the biggest proof against yourself.
Are you kidding? If i wanted to hide smth i would go along with the version you suggested - that it is the 2nd time in the whole series i cleared them. Instead, i told you the truth!
Bottom line, i simply cannot discard your speculations as there are not hard facts about some aspects - only collateral proofs like with save and explaining my logic. It boils down to whether you believe me or not... Naturally, once you have started these accusations you cannot stop any more or else you would have to come up with sincere apology about these outrageous and false accusations hehe
Also, i think that you do believe me or else you would have come up with this right after the game and not several days later taking vengeance on my critique about back-stabbing.
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted May 13, 2009 11:08 AM |
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This is a horrible situation ... and even more terrible is the lack of solutions to it, if there isn't a wolves1, the suspicion will last forever. At least some print screens of the crashes would help, but i guess those are out of reach also...
And on top of that Infinitus just screwed the entire trust in the community with this program...
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2009 11:08 AM |
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Again about the scanner. We have used it some 3 years ago in offline tournament. But the issue with scanner i have hotly discussed with HL arena organizers - we tried to invent a way to block it as Russian community is aware of it. We failed then but we didn't have anyone with serious modding skills. In the end, we put in in "cheats" list that automatically means disqualification.
What i really hope for is that our guys can create a programming tool that blocks scanner and adds passwords to save files.
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2009 11:48 AM |
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Edited by Kispagat at 11:49, 13 May 2009.
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Also, i think that you do believe me or else you would have come up with this right after the game and not several days later taking vengeance on my critique about back-stabbing.
No, I did not and do not believe you.
Its easy to understand to anyone who shows some respect to his/her opponent and the community, that I needed to make a hard decision whether I should accuse the ceasar finalist and grandmaster of toh with cheating. Another drama surely does not help the community.
Also, I needed to decide what outcome might be. Because if I am right, you must be kicked from ceasar and from tournament of honor. And even tough you would never imagine that, at some point I decided not to, because ceasar is 10000 less important for me than for you.
But once again your gentle personailty what reflects from your posts convinced me, that I cant let you walk away that simply, while I am sure that you were cheating.
Now to summarize the dc thing:
- You had crucial battle for your plans
- You had 4 tries with long turns
- 1st you had a dc/froze
- 2nd I had a game froze
- 3rd you had a dc/froze
- you made a save which called wolves 2
- you edited the name of the save
- there is no wolves 1, so even you are so precise in general you began saving with "2"
- you were in panic and were scared when we discussed this issue after ur second dc
- battle is perfect and very close to suicide
These are clearly shows that 99% it happened like this:
Your first try was suicide/bad losses whatever, so you created a dc/froze. After we had ur second dc/froze you quickly edited the name of save forgetting that from h5 the original save stays.
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted May 13, 2009 01:35 PM |
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I agree on one thing, the replay is perfect and mega-lucky, ATB wise...
I have made some simple calculations... and it is pure luck to have waiting pixies before titans, not even close to 50% chance.
Check it out:
iATBp = initial ATB of pixies
iATBt = initial ATB of titans
Because pixies wait they have ATB 150 to burn.
So,
- formula is like this for pixies turns needed:
(150 - iATBp) / 15 = 10 - iATBp/15
- and like this for titans :
(100 - iATBt) / 10 = 10 - iATBt/10
From this two formulas it is obvious that
iATBt/10 has to be < iATBp/15 , which is very unlikely most of the times.
I also experimented this with 7 pixies on the battlefield 3 times... and the results seem to confirm my calculations.
Pixies waitng vs Titans ATB small statistic
I am not saying this is a proof of cheating, but a proof of pure luck in its highest state  ... but since Strider said he can do it even easier without Pixie blockage, if he somehow manages to repeat this replay in unlucky ATB mode (maybe have save from there and load it with Kispagat, or simulate it somehow in map editor) than we can safely say he didn't cheat.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2009 02:55 PM |
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Edited by Elit at 14:56, 13 May 2009.
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Quote:
Also, I needed to decide what outcome might be. Because if I am right, you must be kicked from ceasar and from tournament of honor.
I'm against kick Strider from ToH for few reason:
1. Hope one day he will understand his mistake and report his game vs me like real player.
2. After Vangelis decide to be serius we have only Strider for new drama tread!
3. Read 1st 
Quote:
I agree on one thing, the replay is perfect and mega-lucky, ATB wise...
I have made some simple calculations... and it is pure luck to have waiting pixies before titans, not even close to 50% chance.
Check it out:
iATBp = initial ATB of pixies
iATBt = initial ATB of titans
Because pixies wait they have ATB 150 to burn.
So,
- formula is like this for pixies turns needed:
(150 - iATBp) / 15 = 10 - iATBp/15
- and like this for titans :
(100 - iATBt) / 10 = 10 - iATBt/10
From this two formulas it is obvious that
iATBt/10 has to be < iATBp/15 , which is very unlikely most of the times.
I also experimented this with 7 pixies on the battlefield 3 times... and the results seem to confirm my calculations.
Pixies waitng vs Titans ATB small statistic
I am not saying this is a proof of cheating, but a proof of pure luck in its highest state ... but since Strider said he can do it even easier without Pixie blockage, if he somehow manages to repeat this replay in unlucky ATB mode (maybe have save from there and load it with Kispagat, or simulate it somehow in map editor) than we can safely say he didn't cheat.
Look like from so much arena you are lack advance creeping skills
For begin battle is hard for decide not for get if you know how. You forget Strider have 8 moral so its 50% chance for get it. Wait 2 sprites with 50% chance for moral give prety decent chance them to act before titan...but Strider was unluck here 
If Sprites cant block titan 1st turn you can simple use druid for cast endurance on arcane and unicorns. Tintan wont kill mucn from 1 soht and arcane archers with FE will kill again 1 stack from 1 shot. So 1st turn Talanar mass haste second regen arcanes and unicorn. Battle will be same no difference in real.
From other side its very easy to make mistake or mess someting in battle like it....so its very possible bad end in 1st battle from Strider and fake dc. Are he cheat in real? I dont know but sure i dont trust him in general. For example any one from us in same situation will send his save from battle for clear all suspect. Keeping secret advance creeping in situation like this is huge mistake. Maybe he simple loss battle and for this did all qest with saves and passwords.
P.S.
I'm not happy from all this story. Hope peaceful end soon.
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted May 13, 2009 03:07 PM |
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Quote:
Look like from so much arena you are lack advance creeping skills
For begin battle is hard for decide not for get if you know how. You forget Strider have 8 moral so its 50% chance for get it. Wait 2 sprites with 50% chance for moral give prety decent chance them to act before titan...but Strider was unluck here
Lol, Elit you sound like a noob ... Morale doesn't trigger on the wait action
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2009 03:29 PM |
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Edited by Kispagat at 15:31, 13 May 2009.
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Quote:
5. About looking at the save. You are wrong again. First, it was clear to me that you can manage grabbing dwarven boots and only way is to protect them is to skip balrogs. This was extremely hard choice and i thought about it 1 day. On contrary to your arguments, having final on early week 5 was smth i tried to avoid with all power. Obviously, dungeon's supremacy over sylvan would be dominant because i couldn't buy all army. We discussed strategic imperatives about this decision with Zilo in long msn call. And i decided that my chances will be better with retribution from trees and money from books to buy all army. I hoped Kis would suicide in some of garrisons. Even if not - i could force week 6 battle and hope that superiority of meat can overcome Dwarven set and destructive.
I was extremely relieved and surprised when Kis didn't come for boots. Msn log with Zilo shows that (it's in Latvian though). So my next move was to secure boots.
And then Kis surprised me and took both garrisons. At that point i again spend whole day thinking what to do. My first intention was to hide in shadow and get the army from week 6. However, it was clear that his next target would be staff garrison and i was forced with hard decision - staff vs. week 6 army. Again we discussed it with my friend Zilo in looong msn call. The decision was unilateral and very unfortunate for me - i HAD to cross Kis way to prevent him from staff because there is also portal to my castle and it would be the end. Unfortunate because it was week 5, day 7 and i felt that he has forced me in the corner with perfect timing of not allowing week 6 battle.
With these statements, you support my arguments. You describe your poor week 5 position. But how was this situation created?
If we forget the dc issues for a moment, killing titans and wolves and rush to the center too early is the way of loosing the fight.
It seemed that you are strategically lost the game. If I was able to get the keys, with your loosing move of entering center too early, you gave up it and can not avoid week 5 battle against my full week 5 army with swift mind, empowered spells and with rings 30% and maybe full dwarfen set. This how u should calculate it.
I do not think that u could hope to gain best arties from sunken. I cant believe that you would risk that lame move, if you were not sure that I dont have swift mind after balrogs, and I was not able to get the keys, and also knew what arties will be there in sunken temple.
Especially not, because Zilo could explain it to you, that according to our games with him, arriving to the center too early is 99% loosing.
Your personality shows that you hate loosing, and because you are smart, you find ways to avoid that no matter what is the price. This time you were providing proofs against yourself, maybe too much tension, you were never so close loosing against so average player, as you call me.
I think I will not make more posts on this, even tough I cant promise that. I would like to hear a final word from Ves, council of honor, whatever.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2009 03:44 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Look like from so much arena you are lack advance creeping skills
For begin battle is hard for decide not for get if you know how. You forget Strider have 8 moral so its 50% chance for get it. Wait 2 sprites with 50% chance for moral give prety decent chance them to act before titan...but Strider was unluck here
Lol, Elit you sound like a noob ... Morale doesn't trigger on the wait action
Bleh you catch me so fast...but its was good try!
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jorko80
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 13, 2009 05:11 PM |
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Regarding the post of Strider_HL about Heroscanner :
Did you guys ever read the classic Tartuffe written by Molliere? It's full of hypocrisy and deceit. That's the first thing coming to my mind reading his amazing lines.
Best Regards !!!
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Clay_Man
Known Hero
TOH gamer
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posted May 13, 2009 07:03 PM |
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I wonder why the not-so-trusted ppl at TOH have the worst net connections and the most alt+tabbing action while fighting choke point guards in the map... This must be some weird coincidence I guess...
Anyways, not to bitter even more this thread, I'd just like to point out here that Heroes is a friggin' GAME, it seems some people have forgotten the meaning of this wonderful term, unfortunately.
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