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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted March 05, 2010 08:56 PM |
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Quote:
A game I bought recently had a 20-digit key that you type in whenever you want to install. One key per game, what is wrong with that system? No internet mess.
Piracy will happen regardless...how did those drm free stardock games do? That was a "big deal" but I don't remember how it turned out.
the problem with the digit key is that fake keys could be generated.
or i could just give my friend they key and he could install its single player component on his system.
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Protection From Everything.
dota
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted March 05, 2010 09:04 PM |
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Oh yeah you need the disc in to play also.
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 05, 2010 09:18 PM |
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TheDeath, I assume not anyone is having your knowledge about cracks and pirated versions, as this is your way to. Therefore I am guilty about not having the same knowledge, I agree. "Opinions" and acts as yours are what makes companies take stupid/extreme decisions. People choose the wrong target here.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 05, 2010 10:12 PM |
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Umm almost any gamer that browses the internet knows about cracks. It's not exactly a state secret.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Roman_Lajciak
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posted March 05, 2010 10:59 PM |
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Quote:
We all know it is about money. Of course, pirates will crack the DRM under a day or less, but most people have no idea or the skill to search through internet for the valid crack, not to mention the million viruses inside. So I consider a DRM protection as a way to improve incomes.
Well, if the DRM gets cracked in less than a day and most people don't know how to search the internet and apply a crack than why have this draconian form of DRM? Other types of DRM exist that rely on disk checks, CD-keys or degrading performance of pirated games (and I have no problem with any of these), rather than requiring us to be online. If most people cannot find and apply a crack for one type of DRM they won't be able to do it for another type given that the process of doing so is the same. So Ubisoft could just as easily have a DRM based on disk checks and CD-keys (and I have no problem with those types of DRM). The anti-piracy effectiveness and not annoy a substantial portion of its (now former, due to a boycott) customers.
Quote:
I read carefully their policy and I don't see high restrictions. Be connected, thats all. If you lose connection, the game is saved on servers. It will work exactly as World of Warcraft, and nobody complained yet.
World of Warcraft is an MMO, which is by definition dependent on the internet. Oh, and I should mention that I don't play MMOs for precisely that reason, but at least with MMOs - it is part of their nature to be internet-based, whereas for single player games it is just an artificial restriction.
Quote:
If you travel and can't connect, read a book or watch a movie, it will not hurt.
Ah, but why should book and movie publishers and studios be treated differently than game developers/publishers? If a single player game requires you to be connected to the internet to play, than a surely a movie can require you to be connected to the internet to watch and a book needs to be connected to the internet to read. After all, movies can be pirated too, so a draconian DRM along Ubisoft's lines would also make sense (NOT!) for movie studios. Books can also be pirated, especially if they are e-books, but also normal books - they can be photocopied.
I say, no way! This kind of approach to DRM needs to be nipped in the bud before it spreads!
Quote:
In the policy I can read that if the servers are closed, the game will be patched. That means UBI keeps in mind the possibility that this method will not work. It says everything we need to know.
Ubisoft tries to imply that the draconian DRM will be patched out if the servers are taken down, but nobody believes them and with good reason. They have deliberatiely tried to weasel out of commiting to patching out the DDRM if the servers go offline.
Relevant quotes:
Quote:
Will Ubi make a firm commitment to removing the DRM if the servers are to be taken offline?
We'll paste the straight transcript here:


PCG: What I think a lot of us would really like is a firm commitment that you understand our worries that the servers are going to go down and suddenly we've just got some trash data on our hard drives that we've paid for.


Ubisoft: The system is made by guys who love PC games. They play PC games, they are your friends.


Wow, what can I say?!?! This is what I called bungled question avoidment!
The question being completely bypassed, PCG presses the issue:
Quote:
PCG: So you can commit to saying that those systems will be patched out?


Ubisoft: That's the plan.


PCG: It's the plan, or it's definitely going to happen?


Ubisoft: That's written into the goal of the overall plan of the thing. But we don't plan on shutting down the servers, we really don't."
I mean, I am sorry, but that is just nowhere near good enough. Having a 'plan' and commiting to something are two entirely different things...
Read the full interview here:
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=235596&site=pcg
As a matter of interest, if you think that the servers will stay up forever... here are some game server shut downs (a sampling of those from January 2010):
EA game server shut downs:
http://www.techshout.com/gaming/2010/04/ea-to-shut-down-25-online-servers-for-sports-titles-next-month/
Sega game server shut downs:
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2010/01/ea-server-closure/
More EA game server shut downs:
http://xbox360.gamespy.com/xbox-360/lord-of-the-rings-saga/1069811p1.html
Microsoft server shut downs:
http://blog.gamesylvania.com/2010/02/08/microsoft-to-shut-down-xbox-live-servers-for-classic-xbox-games/
Note: None of these have had their online requirements patched out... companies simply don't bother to do that with older games that no longer sell...
With Ubisoft's approach I can say something like this to the company: Sure, if you patch the DDRM out of your games, I will purchase them, but I will only do so after the DDRM is patched out, not before.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted March 05, 2010 11:29 PM |
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Edited by Shares at 23:29, 05 Mar 2010.
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Quote:
WOW had more than 20 millions customers who can be connected 24/7. No matter multiplayer or not, I guess other companies will learn from its anti-piracy mechanics, even for single games. I don't say it is good or right, I say that I am aware about piracy, it is a new phenomenon, and it needs a counter measure. Which one, lets see. Ubi is selling more than 3 millions copies for its best games, so the opinion of 100 users or 1000 signatures on a petition has no much impact.
It hurts my head, and more so my morals. How could some one ever think that?! What the **** happened to cooperation that was fondly spoken of?! What the **** happened to respect and service towards the customers?!
Ok, ok! I'll calm down! *SIGH!*
So if all that matters is crunching numbers, and not being fair and apply good service to the customers, here I go! Have you ever noticed the little text at the bootom of the start page on HC? You know, the one where it says that HC have like 9000 members? Ok, but how many of them have more than 10 posts, and have posted in the last year or so? Really? You said 3 000 000 copies? That makes a thousand active people on 3 000 000 customers! So a thousand guy signing a petiotion could easily turn out to be 3 million customers.
My point is that a LOT of people that has decided not to buy the game haven't signed the petition. Most of the (not) customers aren't active.
And let me tell you my dirty little secret, I don't even want HoMM 6 that bad. I don't care that much about Ubisofts games, because I don't like them very much. Still I'm trying to stop this, because it's the right thing to do! The things in life I care about aren't some game. it's about respect, and ubi is screwing the only people that cares about them!
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 06, 2010 12:19 AM |
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What I am sure is that every time one clicks on a torrent or downloads a crack, he signs a petition for DRM or other extreme measures. Now do the count. Again, I think you choose the wrong target here. I don't see anyone strongly condemning pirates here. It should start by that, then argue.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted March 06, 2010 12:26 AM |
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Yep, piracy is bad. It's what caused this problem in the first place, but, as been said a hundred times, this wont affect the thieves that much.
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted March 06, 2010 12:31 AM |
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It is easier to convince one entity (ubisoft) to change its behavior than to convince many (pirates) to change their behavior. For myself, I don't pirate, I pay good money for games, movies, music etc. It is tough for me to change the behavior of others though.
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 06, 2010 12:33 AM |
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For me the problem is simple:
a)UBI makes DRM protection, sales go down, UBI remove DRM protection and you are right
b)UBI makes DRM protection, sales go up, UBI keeps DRM protection and you are wrong.
How can anyone know what will happen before testing? Because you and several other guys say they will not buy the game? It is irrelevant at this stade.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 06, 2010 12:33 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 00:36, 06 Mar 2010.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 06, 2010 12:47 AM |
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Quote:
Yep, piracy is bad. It's what caused this problem in the first place
Right! So, now that it was underlined, everyone can make his suggestion on a friendly modality to fight against and send it to UBI. What are the proposals and how feasible are they?
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Era II mods and utilities
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted March 06, 2010 01:14 AM |
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Edited by Adrius at 01:17, 06 Mar 2010.
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My two cents.
Making different kinds of protection and giving honest customers trouble is really just playing by the hackers' rules, you can't beat them on their battlefield.
The solution isn't to forbid the opposition through things like DRM, it is to provide a better service, something that the rival doesn't have.
Give the legal version access to patches, downloadable content, guides, extra stuff that can't be accessed on a pirated version.
Don't forbid us to get the pirated version, instead make us want the legal version.
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Roman_Lajciak
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posted March 06, 2010 01:18 AM |
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Quote:
For me the problem is simple:
a)UBI makes DRM protection, sales go down, UBI remove DRM protection and you are right
b)UBI makes DRM protection, sales go up, UBI keeps DRM protection and you are wrong.
How can anyone know what will happen before testing? Because you and several other guys say they will not buy the game? It is irrelevant at this stade.
What you are failing to understand is that Ubisoft has used DRM protection before too, so it is not a matter of DRM or no DRM. HoMM 5 did have DRM protection and I for sure did not mind it at all. I support DRM that is customer friendly (disk checks and CD-keys) and oppose draconian DRM that essentially results in forced obsolescence when the company shuts down servers. What is different now is that the draconian DRM protection Ubisoft has implemented now is extremely onerous for customers. So it is not a matter of DRM protection versus no DRM protection. It is a matter of whether the DRM is draconian enough that it highly negatively impacts the customers (pirates don't care, by the way, they will play the cracked game without the DRM and won't need to be online to do so - if somebody were to pirate the game they wouldn't even be here arguing, because the DRM wouldn't impact them at all - it is only legitimate customers who care and get an inferior product than the pirates).
What's more, there is absolutely no use in condeming the pirates. Sure I do condemn them. We all know that piracy is wrong. However, it is not useful, because I have precisely zero leverage over the pirates and indeed legitimate customers in general have zero leverage over the pirates. As customers, however, when we combine, we do have leverage over Ubisoft, because it is us who pay the money for their games. We do have the power to take our business elsewhere and refrain from giving them revenue to show our displeasure. We do have the power to spread the word about the draconian DRM (DDRM) to other Ubisoft customers, so that they too join the boycott. The point is, if enough of us band together, we have leverage. And it seems that this outrage is causing customers to band together. You can be certain that many, many more people are angry about this DDRM than those who have signed the petition (I mean, even I haven't signed the petition - I didn't even look at it yet, though now would probably be a good time to do so).
Will it be enough customers to impact Ubisoft sales? I don't know, but when I have the time to do so, I will to try to spread the word about this ridiculous DDRM scheme wherever Ubisoft games are talked about. So it is not simply of are we right or are we wrong. We can strive to make ourselves right over time (I don't think initial sales will be much impacted, since most buyers won't know of this DRM at first) by spreading the word on this issue.
I should remind you that EA has tried to pull a Ubisoft on us with online DDRM not so long ago (though EA's DDRM was not as bad as Ubisoft's it was still very bad) [oh, and I should mention that EA also 'indicated' that it would patch out the DDRM if it takes its servers down - nobody trusted them either]. Customers did band together and campaigned against EA games with DDRM. Initially, the effects were not very visible, but they did gradually materialize and after slightly less than a year of this, EA finally decided to extricate itself from the disaster and abandoned the DDRM in favor of much more customer-friendly DRM schemes (disk checks and CD-keys). The campaign against it stopped and people (myself included) happily returned to buying EA's games. So there is a precedent for sustained customer action causing a PR disaster for a major company (EA is bigger than Ubisoft), which then realized its mistake and changed its ways. Let's hope this happens again with Ubisoft, the company abandons this DDRM scheme in favor of disk checks and CD-keys and everybody profits from a new Heroes of Might and Magic 6 game - legitimate customers who can buy it in good conscience and knowledge that they can play it offline and regardless of some Ubisoft servers, as well as Ubisoft, which won't have to pay to maintain the servers and won't have to deal with a boycott. We don't know how it will end up, of course, but this would be the best outcome from my point of view.
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Roman_Lajciak
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posted March 06, 2010 01:27 AM |
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Quote:
As a matter of interest, if you think that the servers will stay up forever... here are some game server shut downs (a sampling of those from January 2010):
EA game server shut downs:
http://www.techshout.com/gaming/2010/04/ea-to-shut-down-25-online-servers-for-sports-titles-next-month/
Sega game server shut downs:
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2010/01/ea-server-closure/
More EA game server shut downs:
http://xbox360.gamespy.com/xbox-360/lord-of-the-rings-saga/1069811p1.html
Microsoft server shut downs:
http://blog.gamesylvania.com/2010/02/08/microsoft-to-shut-down-xbox-live-servers-for-classic-xbox-games/
Note: None of these have had their online requirements patched out... companies simply don't bother to do that with older games that no longer sell...
With Ubisoft's approach I can say something like this to the company: Sure, if you patch the DDRM out of your games, I will purchase them, but I will only do so after the DDRM is patched out, not before.
I forgot to mention that some of the games for which the servers were shut down were just over a year old from release and many were less than two years old!
That is definitely not what I expect a life-span of my games to be! I expect it not to be artificially limited by dependence on Ubisoft's servers at all and that's why I absolutely don't want to be dependent on Ubisoft's servers to install or play the game.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted March 06, 2010 02:52 AM |
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Roman, I think the discussion about exactly what DRM means is a bit of a non relevant side-issue...I have a feeling Salamandre meant "online DRM" ie. needing to be online all the time...
Now, I can accept putting in a 20-digit key, requiring CD in computer all the time & going online to register...but NOT having to be online all the time to play...why don't they try that first?
or
maybe they could try requiring to be online but loss of connection doesn't affect the present active game at all & also allow a grace period like 28 days before having to be online again - talking about single player ofc
Now I reckon majority of people play games offline & don't visit forums...I wonder what the statistics are for:
1. buy game & play mainly offline (that would include me)
2. buy game & play mainly online
3. not buy game, but would have bought it if pirate not obtained & play mainly offline
4. not buy game, but would have bought it if pirate not obtained & play mainly online
5. not buy game, and wouldn't have bought it if pirate not obtained & play mainly offline
6. not buy game, and wouldn't have bought it if pirate not obtained & play mainly online
Only those in category 1-4 matter in terms of sales & those people in categories 3-8 should not even comment!
or maybe the companies maybe think they know the market better since the game secretly sends data back to seller BUT eg. doesn't know difference between 3 & 5?
& yeah piracy/copycats sux (in terms of people getting a product freely that one would have paid for instead)
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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Roman_Lajciak
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posted March 07, 2010 06:58 PM |
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Hmm, effects of Ubisoft DDRM on honest customers... server problems: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/1601001838
So, while many customers cannot play the game because of this, pirates can play it without interruptions, as they have gotten rid of the DDRM through cracks.
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted March 07, 2010 06:59 PM |
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Quote:
Hmm, effects of Ubisoft DDRM on honest customers... server problems: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/1601001838
So, while many customers cannot play the game because of this, pirates can play it without interruptions, as they have gotten rid of the DDRM through cracks.
Whats that I smell?
Freedom of Ubisoft while playing Assassins creed 2 
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted March 07, 2010 07:02 PM |
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Quote:
TheDeath, I assume not anyone is having your knowledge about cracks and pirated versions, as this is your way to. Therefore I am guilty about not having the same knowledge, I agree. "Opinions" and acts as yours are what makes companies take stupid/extreme decisions. People choose the wrong target here.
Do you even know that some crack/warez sites pop up BEFORE the original website, for some keywords/products? 
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Keksimaton
Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
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posted March 07, 2010 07:02 PM |
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You know, wouldn't it basically run the same purpose, but avoid a whole lot of ire, if you only needed to validate the game online before playing instead of having a constant connection to an Ubisoft server?
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
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This thread is pages long: 
