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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted January 19, 2012 12:00 PM |
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First off JJ you are highly insulting. I never once said or called anyone immoral or perverted. Others have yes, but not me. Secondly, my opinions are opposite to yours, but are no less important or relevant, so stop with the the 'Holier than thou' arrogance. Just because I do not agree with you on this, does not mean I am biased or bigotted or somehow misinformed or ignorant. And how dare you again insinuate that my views are Medieval. What just because I disagree with your views?? That's just about as blinkered as any bigotted and biased individual I guess. So lets cut those particular insults.
Secondly, I find it rather amusing that you are so stringent in your argument here that you would bring up the ridiculous scenario above. Yes I'm sure that most parents (not you obviously) can barely talk with their children, let alone have some sort of close loving and understand one. Because in your eyes, I would be the type of mother who because of my religious and moral belief's wouldn't be able to explain to my own daughter the simple facts and then shut off because you think (hope) I couldn't answer a simple question. Really JJ, this is getting childish.
As for answering Cor's question .. it wasn't particularly directed at me and I considered it a bit silly to answer. Sex education isn't like Math or Home Economic's or Physical Education. Being totally useless at Math, I wouldn't even attempt teaching my children anything apart from simple mathematic's (yes I am bad), but I would do a much better job regarding Home Ec., not necessarily PE, maybe even rival the school regarding other classes. Because that is what as parents we are supposed to do. We don't hand over the total education of our children to others. I'm sure some do. But like I said, as a parent you have your own child's wellbeing first and foremost and that includes their education (as well as everything else).
And 'How do I know?' You don't want to know how I know, okay. It is not something any of you need to know. The fact is I know a hell of a lot more about underage sex than you do obviously. I also live with proof that sex too young is damaging. Taking a 'what the hell' attitude 'no one got hurt' is letting kids down, big time.
And I stand by exactly what I have said before. I believe the responsibility to teach your children sex education belongs to the parent. Later on, if so willing and the curriculum is something that the parents agree with (content, facts etc), then they can be taught, alongside their school friends, at school.
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Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 19, 2012 01:33 PM |
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Do you really think that we should generally assume that when you make a certain experience everyone else will inevitably make the same?
So you obviously know something about yourself - you did something when you were young, that somehow didn't work out, I don't know, fell for a boy, got pregnant, got abandoned, it's not that uncommon.
Maybe your parents warned you - same way you do now - maybe you thought you knew better, maybe you did it anyway, just to show it to them, and maybe you think now they were right all the time, and you should have heeded them in the first place to save you a lot.
But maybe they just were not able to prepare you and give you the confidence and everything else needed to do things NOT for or against others (because they want you to do something or not to do something, and you either obey, doing it for them, or you don't obey, doing it against them), but for yourself and for all the right reasons.
That's of course just me speculating without any foundation.
In any case, you do NOT know. You just know, things didn't went well somehow for YOURSELF - but I don't have the impression that you are an unhappy person now, and you know what they say about the things which don't kill us.
So you do NOT know. You are just afraid for her, that she might burn herself, and you want to spare her that burn and the pain - but the only point you have is, "when I was in your age I did this and it was bad for me; I fear it would be bad for you as well, so please don't."
I always thought, we develop by relating the exact information about our failures, not by putting a taboo sign on the whole issue.
So if we want to tame the fire, and if someone burned himself badly trying it, we won't succeed by putting up a sign - DON'T COME NEAR THIS.
It will neither be generally successful, nor will it help taming the beast.
A better method is to relate what DIDN'T work and why, and leave the rest to work out for those whose turn it is to make the next try.
After all, you've been educating your children a long time, so there was ample time and opportunity to help them becoming fine persons who are not prone to step into the dog turds lying around along the way, since you've taught them to watch their step, right?
Even if those dog turds are the governmentally dictated sex ed.
With all the sexually motivated ... CRAP happening, all the assaults, indecencies, rapes, harrassments, abuses and whatnot - can there be any doubt that there is something fundamentally wrong with the attitude our society has towards sex, since it produces so much ... toxic fallout?
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted January 19, 2012 01:40 PM |
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Again JJ you have it wrong. And again you go off on ... only your view is right. I DO indeed know. And yes your speculations are totally off. And I would thank you not to try and speculate on my life and abilities. I think its about time too that you admitted that you do not have all the necessary experience to judge any more than anyone else.
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Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted January 19, 2012 02:14 PM |
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JJ you cannot make rules without generalising, it can be accurate but never ever 100%. Just because one child is capable of absorbing knowledge and take on this heavy responsibility at age 12, does not mean that another is capable of too, by age 16 most children should be able to take on the responsibility that comes attached to sexual intercourse, not just one or two.
(though typing that up, I still think 18-21 would be more accurate, but government knows best  )
And you cannot possibly wish to inflict what could possibly harmful confusing subject unto those who cannot possibly understand, all because of the few individuals that can. As I said before I've got no issue with the teaching of the effects of puberty on the body, but the discussion of sex and methods ( ) are out of order for an 11 year old. A child has absolutely no need to be educated on sex, and that's my opinion if every child were to be capable of undestanding the subject, which is sooo clearly not the case.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 19, 2012 03:11 PM |
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Well, that seems to be the difference here. I understand my educational task as an obligation to enable them to live their own life and make informed, reasonable and confident choices when they present itself.
You claim to know, what choices are best for them and seem to have the educational goal to make them accept that Mum knows everything best.
Now, since I don't see any points except that you are knowledgable when it comes to bad effects of sex and of course your children, therefore you should teach your children all about it, while you agree that school should teach your children math, since you know squat about it, we can just as well end this, concluding that society should leave education completely to parents, leave all public education voluntary, and teach children only in subjects and classes the parents are admitting to knowing squat about - including teaching as such, but on the other hand, how many people call themselves a teacher and know squat about teaching as well?
After we have established this we can safely conclude that everything is the government's fault, especially when it's a liberal one, and be done with it.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted January 19, 2012 03:41 PM |
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@Meroe
Quote:
As for answering Cor's question .. it wasn't particularly directed at me and I considered it a bit silly to answer. Sex education isn't like Math or Home Economic's or Physical Education. Being totally useless at Math, I wouldn't even attempt teaching my children anything apart from simple mathematic's (yes I am bad), but I would do a much better job regarding Home Ec., not necessarily PE, maybe even rival the school regarding other classes. Because that is what as parents we are supposed to do. We don't hand over the total education of our children to others. I'm sure some do. But like I said, as a parent you have your own child's wellbeing first and foremost and that includes their education (as well as everything else).
No one is talking about handing over total education of children to others. Let me rephrase my question: why do you feel comfortable handing the education of some subjects to total strangers, yet the education of sex is for some reason sacred? What is specifically different about sex?
On a related topic, I don't understand why a lot of parents have no problem immunizing their children against all kinds of diseases (flu shots, MMR vaccines, hepatitis vaccines, and so on and so on), but any mention of a mandatory HPV (human papilloma virus, a sexually transmissible virus that is known to cause cervical cancer in women) vaccine sends them into apoplexic fits of rage.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted January 19, 2012 03:59 PM |
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@JJ you summerize the entirety of Maths into just simple math, I'm sorry but I've yet to meet a child who has a degree in maths, please, with your obvious extensive knowledge, enlighten me, why children are incapable of achieving a maths degree.
I'll tell you why, education is a ladder you climb, you cannot start at the top. Sex cannot be taught to a child till he or she has the necessary requirements fulfilled to be able to understand.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 19, 2012 04:06 PM |
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Huh?
I have to admit that I'm feeling somewhat, umm, helpless and overwhelmed with a lot of your comments, but this one is completely beyond me.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted January 19, 2012 04:44 PM |
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Let's see if I can't somehow translate...
Quote:
@JJ you summerize the entirety of Maths into just simple math, I'm sorry but I've yet to meet a child who has a degree in maths, please, with your obvious extensive knowledge, enlighten me, why children are incapable of achieving a maths degree.
Asking why a child can not get a degree as an astro-physicist, engineer, etc.
Quote:
I'll tell you why, education is a ladder you climb, you cannot start at the top. Sex cannot be taught to a child till he or she has the necessary requirements fulfilled to be able to understand.
Explaining that you cannot just get a degree in theoretical physics because (like everything) it requires years of knowledge and prior training. You have to be able to understand something, in order to understand it, and things like sex are no exception to the rule. Redundant, but I'm guessing that this is what Tsar means, right?
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted January 19, 2012 04:50 PM |
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Quote:
Well, that seems to be the difference here. I understand my educational task as an obligation to enable them to live their own life and make informed, reasonable and confident choices when they present itself.
You claim to know, what choices are best for them and seem to have the educational goal to make them accept that Mum knows everything best.
Now, since I don't see any points except that you are knowledgable when it comes to bad effects of sex and of course your children, therefore you should teach your children all about it, while you agree that school should teach your children math, since you know squat about it, we can just as well end this, concluding that society should leave education completely to parents, leave all public education voluntary, and teach children only in subjects and classes the parents are admitting to knowing squat about - including teaching as such, but on the other hand, how many people call themselves a teacher and know squat about teaching as well?
After we have established this we can safely conclude that everything is the government's fault, especially when it's a liberal one, and be done with it.
Petulance doesn't win either. No one has ever said that all education should be left to parents. You are being ridiculous now. And you are making ludicrous far flung comments that no-one has ever stated on here.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted January 19, 2012 08:13 PM |
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All in all there is no perfect way to parent a child.
All individual child has different needs & we do the best we can.
All in all we will make wrong decisions & we try to never repeat them.
We are not perfect, we are not perfect parents.
I am far from perfect & we just do the best we can.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted January 19, 2012 08:15 PM |
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Quote:
Asking why a child can not get a degree as an astro-physicist, engineer, etc.
Nothing except the pre requirements that you need to have before you can attempt to gain the degrees. Now, if some insane parent had a genius child and quite simply ran around the requirement, getting the degree would still take 5-7 year, and we usually do not consider 14-15 year olds "children" but instead "teens".
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted January 19, 2012 09:40 PM |
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So eh... how 'bout that question from Corribus eh?
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted January 20, 2012 01:49 AM |
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Quote:
No one is talking about handing over total education of children to others. Let me rephrase my question: why do you feel comfortable handing the education of some subjects to total strangers, yet the education of sex is for some reason sacred? What is specifically different about sex?
Well, with your normal educational courses/ classes you usually don't talk about something that makes babies and (if you are a responsible person) puts your life on hold... the normal classes generally teach you actions that push your life further along the success line. In general, at least.
Also, most religions don't describe the sacred act of addition in their texts. Most gods don't talk about multiplication, and something consistent with religion is a viewpoint on sex... so that is the sacred part, I guess. IDK why some parents don't want their child to be told how to do it safely (if they do it at all), but I'm guessing it's some kind of personal belief that may or may not stem from religion or religious beliefs.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted January 20, 2012 02:20 AM |
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Quote:
So eh... how 'bout that question from Corribus eh?
Lol, I gave up after asking it like 10 times.
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 20, 2012 04:54 AM |
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IMHO, a school should teach what it can but it's the parent's job to supplement/complement that education at home.
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Youtube has terminated my account without reason.
Please express why it should be reinstated on
Twitter.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 20, 2012 09:10 AM |
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My last post on the matter, to clear things up a bit.
Gnomes made a translation effort. Well.
Let's just say that Sex ed differs from theoretical physics and advanced math. You cannot get a diploma, not in our society, because it's no class - it's not called The Art of Sex, where you would maybe go through Kamasutra, learn everything about sensitive points, massage techniques and whatnot. Instead you could call it Reproduction Biology And Associated Issues.
I'd compare it with Traffic education.
In Germany, non-mandatory traffic education already starts in the kindergarden.
In Elementary school it's a mandatory CLASS.
Now, obviously, parents have quite different ideas about what they will ALLOW their kids and what they think their kids are capable to, with a grown-up at their side and alone. Some may sit their 3-4-year olds on a bike, some would find the idea abhorrent. Some will let their kids walk to Elementary school, some will find that too dangerous.
STILL, no parent will complain about Traffic ed. NONE will say, hell, I'm not going to leave my 4-year-old kid alone, so do they really need to do traffic ed in the kindergarden? Is my child really to be confronted with the dangers of life?
NONE!
What's different with Sex Ed? "Reproduction Biology" is the most normal thing there is, since no one would exist without it. Kids asking where the babies coming from, happens between 3 and 7 years and is normal. Interest is normal. Whether the kids are able to drive a car or not, they can understand what happens when they are hit by it in a very early age.
Learning the biological facts about life with 9 or 10 - what's wrong with that?
Second. Somewhat unconnected there is the question of that general part of education. I would tentatively call that "sexual MORALS". This is obviously something school should NOT teach in any way, neither negative nor positive.
Moral education is basically a co-production of parents's teaching and of the things children learn by simply registering behaviour, language, pictures, movies and so on, by watching society as a whole and parents and other known people, soaking impressions up.
Education goals are always debatable, but the main thing is of course, that education is also LIMITED by
1) ability of parents
2) Example of parents and better known grown-ups
3) actual morals within society, that is, general cultural mainstream
A lot has been said in this thread in many posts and repetitio non placet, so no further comment here.
As a last remark, though, I don't think, education and moral is something you can teach, but then reject to discuss. Children are not personal property. Parents should be able and ready to explain WHY they do things this or that way. Sure, parents have certain rights, but before everything else, their children have certain rights as well.
Parenting isn't taught - and I'm inclined to add, SADLY FOR A LOT OF KIDS -, which simply means, parents are not only amateurs, their main source of knowledge is their own education, which has certain consequences that can be pretty bad.
Sex - that is, how to deal with it, technically, emotionally and whatnot, isn't taught either - not in that sense. One good reason for that is, that people - and their sexuality - are DIFFERENT. There is no real right and wrong - just think about homosexuality. I'm sure that still most parents would not be too pleased with the idea their child might be gay. Is that an educational issue? If they show a same-sex interest, is it a good idea to discourage that?
So people - kids, youths - are different, and that's why education reaches its limits in that area. There is no such thing as a general mental maturity threshold; people can be quite mature with 13 and quite immature with 30. There is, however, a general LEGAL maturity threshold, which is something else entirely. The best education can do - and there can't be two opinions on that - is educating the kids with the goal to enable them to realize their full potential - whatever it may look.
This is a fluent process, not a question of reaching a certain legal threshold and suddenly everything is different.
Closing this, a known example:
George Harrison was born in February 1943 as son of a bus driver. He had 2 brothers and a sister. He got a guitar as a gift at the age of 13 and joined Lennon's Quarrymen just after he had become 15, when the Quarrymen were a band that played a lot, even in night clubs.
Two years later, when they called themselves the Beatles, they went to Hamburg, Harrison being only 17. They played in a Strip Club in St.Pauli, between sex and drugs.
Since Harrison was still a minor all that was completely illegal, and they had to return to England, only to come back when Harrison got 18.
Obviously his parents had no problem with the way his life developed, once he started playing the guitar.
I don't think they did anything wrong, though. 
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smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 20, 2012 09:41 AM |
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Edited by smithey at 09:42, 20 Jan 2012.
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Ok, I think things got a bit too personal and emotional here, some of us had bad experiences others had good ones, it doesn't really matter what the details are or not, we can all agree to disagree and respect each others opinions...
All me, Meroe and (never thought this would happen) Elodin are saying is that parenting is individual and private, and not something government should interfere with. If I want my kids to praise Allah, become neo-Nazis ,reptilian conspiracy theorists or any other retarded thing out there it's still our choice how to raise our kids, is it not ?
Now don't get me wrong sex ed can be good on a macro level as in the greater good but I'm not interested in a macro view, we are discussing personal opinions here, and my personal opinion is concerned with the micro world of my future kids, this thread was about what we would want to see, and I would want parents to be good parents, I would want parents to do their duty of parenting instead of having schools do it for them...
Corribus, you pretty much said you're doing with your little ninja girl exactly what I would want to see all parents do so I don't really get why would you want some (probably unqualified and subjective) average teacher to teach your little girl about sex? Is it really that hard for you guys to understand that some of us as parents want to be the ones doing the parenting ? Whether it's teaching the little guy how to ride a bike, teaching him right from wrong (as perceived by us) having the talk about the babies, those are all significant milestones in parenting that are important for the bond you will have with your child, those things should be done when our kids are ready for it, regardless of whether it's 7 or 14, those are things that should be decided by us and our kids and not by some stranger....
Math and chemistry are not the same thing as religion, sex or smoking, never were and never will be, our point was never some higher morality it was in fact that there is no such thing as higher morality, there is no "JJ's way is better than Elodin's" or the other way around, it was always about JJ's way Is indeed a better way but only for his kids and for his kids only as I, Elodin or some senator have no right to tell JJ how to raise his kids, that's all we claimed (assuming I got the others right)...
I don't want the government to tell me how to raise my kids, I don't want the government to censor my Internet either, I don't want the government to force my kids into a certain diet in schools either.... Way too many limitations and interferences by the government and all of it is of course done for the greater good and for a better society.... Dont like it one bit and if you guys do, it's cool, we don't all need to see eye to eye...
Ps - I'm on an iPhone so I'm assuming a lot of stuff got "auto-corrected" in the silliest way but there's no way I can go over it so give me a break,...
And I'm dropping it now as it's obvious that none if us will ever agree on the subject, but it's cool, would be boring otherwise anyhow 
____________
She turned me into a newt!
A newt?
I got better
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 20, 2012 09:54 AM |
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Quote:
All me, Meroe and (never thought this would happen) Elodin are saying is that parenting is individual and private, and not something government should interfere with. If I want my kids to praise Allah, become neo-Nazis ,reptilian conspiracy theorists or any other retarded thing out there it's still our choice how to raise our kids, is it not ?
No, it's not, for simple reasons:
1) The kids are not the parents's property, which means
2) The kid has a right of protection, even from his parents, and there are enough examples that's a good thing
3) The kid will become part of society, and society has a justified interest in making sure the kid won't be a risk for said society and its members.
In short: the choice of parents, how to raise their kids is limited
1) by the kids's right to be protected
2) by SOCIETY's right and aim to protect itself and their members
So everything that IS detrimental to either the kids or society could be an issue.
There are of course certain problems with that - and it's high time that someone says HITLER in this thread : what if the government itself is a bunch of "loony perverts" (or "criminals") and are there any objective indicators? (Which would mean, do the parents have to protect their kids from the government and are there any objective indcators when this would be called for?)
Quote:
nd I would want parents to be good parents, I would want parents to do their duty of parenting instead of having schools do it for them...
I don't really get why would you want some (probably unqualified and subjective) average teacher to teach your little girl about sex? Is it really that hard for you guys to understand that some of us as parents want to be the ones doing the parenting ? Whether it's teaching the little guy how to ride a bike, teaching him right from wrong (as perceived by us) having the talk about the babies, those are all significant milestones in parenting that are important for the bond you will have with your child, those things should be done when our kids are ready for it, regardless of whether it's 7 or 14, those are things that should be decided by us and our kids and not by some stranger....
Trouble is, since it's the parents who are - mostly - UNLEARNED workers (parenting isn't taught, read back my last post) -, it's mostly PARENTS which quaalifications in teaching are doubtful - not that - mostly - there was any doubt concerning their good INTENTIONS, but as they say, that's the stuff the road to hell is paved with.
Which means, reality shows that parents cannot be trusted to teach the minimum of what society generally deems to be necessary - which is the reason why school makes sure SOMEONE will do the teaching, whether the parents want or not.
Same thing with health checks. Dental checks in school, anyone?
What's the alternative? Look at the thread title.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted January 20, 2012 11:13 AM |
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Kids aren't parents property yet they get persecuted when a child chokes on an object or are obligated to take care of that child?
So in your opinion society should be punished if any harm befalls the child (they're responsible). Or is your definition of belonging to society is that "you belong and we take care of you, but we don't?"
I'd like to see how you think Society applied prefvention measures prior to the death of the child (by the hardrier).
Listen to yourself, children belonging to society. When a father of a 12 year old girl says that his child belongs to society and he is not responsible for her, then that makes me question either the man's sanity or whether he is infact a parent or a man at all.
EDIT: 20 post count et cetera:
Quote:
) The kid will become part of society, and society has a justified interest in making sure the kid won't be a risk for said society and its members.
Quote:
Oh, I forgot: A child BELONGS TO itself. As long as the child is still learning, parents have the duty to care.
Society jumps in when there seems to be a general need.
He's not his own man, the child didn't decide to be part of society, did he now? Ergo how can he belong to himself when society forces the child into education? (it's the law) Child is not allowed to say no, otherwise his/her carers face persecution/fine, to the extent where the child is removed from those carers and placed int he hands of another. Please explain to me how in this in anyway proves that the child belongs to himself/herself? (because it seriously looks like the opposite)
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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This thread is pages long: 
