|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
posted January 13, 2012 04:13 PM |
|
|
I feel this topic belongs on the Other Side because it's making me uneasy 
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 04:13 PM |
|
|
Quote:
by the way one of the recent controversial laws that has been passed through out National Assembly is regarding the increase of the retirement age - guess why
same thing here, in france...
it's just that in order for some countries to be rich, others have to be poor. it's organized theft.
|
|
Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 04:15 PM |
|
|
This topic was in the OSM  . Or maybe not....now I'm confused.
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
|
|
gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 04:41 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Technology won't do it. America is one of the most technologically advanced countries on the planet and yet our idiots still breed at an alarming rate.
The only reason the US population is going up is that we are having immigrants with large families moving in, not because of people breeding.
Isn't it funny how we even import our people from China?  *
But seriously, first world countries actually have a population decline going on and lower natural growth rates (Births) than death rates. We are entirely dependent on immigration to build up the work force, since we, wealthy Americans and Brits that we are, cannot generally be bothered with the hastle of raising 8+ small children and putting our lives on hold until we are 50. We have other aspects of our lives to deal with. As Cor said, this is due to the fact that we have had a socio-economic change on family size that came from our advancement and our journey to that level. Sure, it takes a while, but saying that it cannot happen isn't realistic, otherwise the Americas, Britain, Germany, etc would not have been able to make it to where they are now.
External inflence is what is slowing down developement most, giving weapons and tach without teaching how to create it from its most basic component is the worst thing that an advanced society can do, since we do not encourage innovation or that things can change, but how to mimic and copy. That changes nothing, since those that copy use what they have to oppress others. It might sound bad, it might even sound isolationist or inhumane, but the best thing to do with third world countries is just to leave them alone, let them develope on their own. The best way for a culture to learn is from its own successes and mistakes. As there is no way in hell we are going to do that, then make our impact as small as we can and send in teachers for those who want to learn. Those who don't will eventually die out (Ex: Salem in the US no longer has witch trials, and does not cast medicine or mechanics down as heathenistic Satanry). It's the best solution I can come up with for the long run, and I think that it might be better than another Holocaust** or restricting a basic human function (which we are designed to carry out, much like breathing).
*Disclaimer: Since this is still in the VW, I feel it fare to make the above joke.
**Godwin's law.
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
|
|
Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 05:09 PM |
|
|
Awww... If only all parents were like Darkie, whips and genderless pony love.. World would be a lovely place 
|
|
blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 05:51 PM |
|
|
@Corribus:
It wasn't nearly that ridiculous. She didn't put the hair dryer in the bassinet. The bassinet was in the bathroom and she rested the hair dryer on the counter a few feet away. It was still pretty stupid but I don't see it as being complete common sense. She probably thought of it as an impromptu space heater.
That isn't to say she isn't responsible for the child, but when I hear about a woman that just lost her baby and is a complete emotional trainwreck (as the article mentioned), and that she may also be facing a jail sentence, I still have to ask what exactly they're attempting to accomplish for her and the public, other than letting people hearing about it on the sidelines to relish in her suffering as she is metaphorically stoned to death. If people have a vested interest in her suffering, I'd say she already has plenty of it. I don't know how they normally go about a death-by-negligence, but I'm certainly unhappy with calling it manslaughter or murder. I don't see this case as being much worse than a parent that accidentally left something small on the floor and the baby choked to death.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 05:59 PM |
|
|
Quote:
It might sound bad, it might even sound isolationist or inhumane, but the best thing to do with third world countries is just to leave them alone, let them develope on their own. The best way for a culture to learn is from its own successes and mistakes.
yeah, that would sound good, if some of those countries weren't pillaged that much that people are dying from hunger.
|
|
Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 06:07 PM |
|
Edited by Jiriki9 at 18:08, 13 Jan 2012.
|
Quote:
I don't see this case as being much worse than a parent that accidentally left something small on the floor and the baby choked to death.
I see quite some differences there.
Most important, there is the point of ACTIVE and PASSIVE deeds. Letting something lie on the floor is not active, and not directed towards the child, while pointing a hair dryer at it is.
Second, letting somethign lie on the floor is a normal thing that veryone does - because we all are humen, not supermen (and women) - while mos tof the people (or at least I hope that VERY VERY much) would not get the idea to dry their baby with the hair dryer.
Third...she went away, letting her baby alone, in another room, with an untested and high suspectible method of "warming" it.
However, I don'ÄT see sense in punishing her either, unless it seems obvious it was no accident. A sensefull help/support system and a working educational system in common sense seem to make more sense to me.
|
|
blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 06:23 PM |
|
|
Sitting a baby down near a stray small object (let's say a game token from a board game that fell on the floor) is passive, but using a hair dryer as a heater is active? What's the worthwhile difference? They were both mistakes that the parent made. The only real difference is that in the first scenario, the parent failed because her senses didn't notice the small object laying on the floor near the baby. In the second scenario, she failed because she underestimated how much heat the hair dryer would generate and that the bassinet would work as an oven to help trap the heat. Shouldn't the first parent then (supposedly) be guilty of manslaughter because her eyes failed to notice the small object? It's not like she purposely left it there, but she's still responsible for the child either way.
It doesn't help her cause that she and her man-toy fell asleep during the movie, but AFAIK, it's pretty common that when a parent sits a baby down to go to sleep, they often go to another room and start doing something else. They don't activate gargoyle-mode and stand over the crib watching it for the next 8 hours straight just in case something happens.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 06:31 PM |
|
|
Quote:
accidentally left something small on the floor and the baby choked to death.
Except she didn't "accidentally" do anything in this case. That's a big difference, really. Put it this way - what about a parent that leaves their child in a hot car on a summer day for like two hours and the child dies? Not an accident, certainly. But that person shouldn't be punished, right? They're sad, after all - we should cut them a break. Maybe the next time they have a kid, they'll do better. Maybe.
And even on the subject of accidents, if you're a parent with a baby you've got to be smarter than to "accidentally" leave small items on the floor. Most accidents are caused by not paying attention, and are thus preventable.
Sorry your honor, I accidentally forgot to buckle my child's seatbelt.
Sorry your honor, I accidentally forgot to ask the baker if those cookies had nuts in them.
Sorry your honor, I accidentally forgot to latch the gate at the top of the stairs.
Sorry your honor, I accidentally left the firearm I keep in my bedside drawer loaded.
Sorry your honor, I accidentally forgot to replace the batteries in the smoke detector.
Yeah, accidents happen, but just because something is "accidental" doesn't mean we don't have to take responsibility for it. And by the way, there is such a thing as criminal negligence, especially related to child endangerment. There's a reason these laws exist.
|
|
blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 06:47 PM |
|
|
And the fate of the person ultimately comes down to chance. I have no doubt in my mind that as I am typing this, somewhere, a parent is sitting a baby down near an object that they can potentially choke on. Will the child choke on it? Nope. They'll more than likely be perfectly fine. Yet for every 1000 parents that do that, one parent sits the baby down, and the baby happens to actually choke this time. Ergo, that parent is deemed a terrible parent, and the other 999 are not, even though all 1000 of them are guilty of the same mistake.
So what is to be done with the parent? Well, losing their child obviously wasn't bad enough, so I guess we'll proceed to lock them up.
As I said, you can still charge them with negligence, but that isn't what the prosecutors here are trying to do. They're going further, which I am unhappy with and I hope they don't succeed. I would personally favor putting her on probation and pairing her with a case worker, which is what the article was saying might happen.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 06:57 PM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 19:06, 13 Jan 2012.
|
Topic was never intended to be serious, but since it's gone that route.... *poof*.
Thread has been moved.
BTW: Blizz, you keep talking about choking on something that's laying on the carpet, but that scenario really doesn't have anything to do with the case at hand. Right, you probably needn't bring criminal charges against everyone who loses a child due to asphyxiation. Not every accident is criminally negligent. In this case however the mother INTENTIONALLY AND KNOWINGLY placed her child in a situation that lead DIRECTLY to that child's death. She did not INTEND to kill her child - that would be muder - but I could certainly see a case for involuntary manslaughter, or criminally negligent homicide (or whatever they call it in her state).
As I said earlier, the closest parallel I can think of is leaving your child in a hot car on a summer day, upon which they die from hyperthermia. Anyone who does that deserves to go to jail IMHO.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 07:03 PM |
|
|
I'm sorry. It's all my fault that it had to come to this
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 07:47 PM |
|
|
Except a parent that sits a baby down near a small object is also deliberately putting them in a potentially fatal situation. It's not a passive act. I will concede that there is a difference worth pointing out: when a parent puts a child near a choking hazard, they're not going to choke every time. Most of the time they won't. However, if you put a child in a bassinet and stick a hair dryer near it, the baby apparently will suffer from hyperthermia each and every time if you let it in there long enough. So the situation is more than just a hazard.
What you need to look at then is how reasonable it was for the parent to know that it was fatal. I think the fact that you work in physical sciences is making you a bit bias here, because I still say that what she did was not a matter of common sense. If I hadn't read this article, I probably would never have thought off the top of my head that doing such a thing would be so fatal. I don't know the exact situation that she was in and where she put the bassinet, but sticking a hair dryer a few feet away from it in a cold room doesn't sound like an overly-obvious killer. On the other hand, I don't think a person will have as good of a defense if they were to leave their child in a car on a sweltering summer day, because that's a common reality for everybody that has ever been inside a car before on a hot summer day. I think that does fall more into the realm of common sense just by sheer experience. Sort of a "don't touch the stove" sort of thing.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 07:48 PM |
|
|
*ahem*
If I hear one more idea from you about some big government boondoggle, I'm afraid I'll have to report you to the libertarian freedom police. Maybe they'll just cut a corner off your card.
|
|
Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 08:13 PM |
|
|
It was the hand of devil. I can find no other explanation. (Sarcasm)
Other than that.Dumb people should not be allowed to breed. Not ethical?
Well,so is murder.
|
|
Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
|
|
posted January 13, 2012 08:56 PM |
|
|
Quote:
It was the hand of devil. I can find no other explanation. (Sarcasm)
Other than that.Dumb people should not be allowed to breed. Not ethical?
Well,so is murder.
So is abortion.
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
|
|
gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
|
|
posted January 14, 2012 01:48 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
It might sound bad, it might even sound isolationist or inhumane, but the best thing to do with third world countries is just to leave them alone, let them develope on their own. The best way for a culture to learn is from its own successes and mistakes.
yeah, that would sound good, if some of those countries weren't pillaged that much that people are dying from hunger.
Did you not read the next sentence, because it says:
Quote:
As there is no way in hell we are going to do that, then make our impact as small as we can and send in teachers for those who want to learn. Those who don't will eventually die out
I recognize that pillaging and starvation are going on. Yes, I recognize that we are partially responsible. Do we make this problem worse, or better, that is the question. Cut out interference as much as possible while still making up for what you have done. Had to draw a line, but it is the only way to let a people grow.
Quote:
Quote:
It was the hand of devil. I can find no other explanation. (Sarcasm)
Other than that.Dumb people should not be allowed to breed. Not ethical?
Well,so is murder.
So is abortion.
Do you know what else is? Theft, slavery, torture, neglect, slander, ignoring basic human rights, invading privacy, denying free speech, denying property rights, denying someone the rights to life giving medicine, denying people the chance to fail and succeed, abandoning friends and family in need, etc, etc.
Now what did I miss and how many times can I contradict myself with those ehtics that I, Sepharim and Ivor listed...
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted January 14, 2012 03:08 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Woman definitely has a history with drugs. There's no way a human's face can look that incredibly vacant.
Sure there is. She was trying to take care of her baby but accidentally caused her baby to die in doing so. The death of a baby to the parent is a terrible thing, and to know that one was the cause of the death would be quite the horror.
I do not think she belongs in jail with human predators. She is not a predator. The death was an accident [but not a random event.]
Quote:
Sterilisation, extermination, whatever...
But let me guess....you don't think you should be one of the ones being sterilized or exterminated.
As for requiring someone to be issued a license to be a parent, nah. Idiot politicians can't even run their own lives much less someone else's. And as has been said, such a requirement would tyranical.
____________
Revelation
|
|
Mentat
Disgraceful
Known Hero
|
|
posted January 14, 2012 09:12 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Do you know what else is? Theft, slavery, torture, neglect, slander, ignoring basic human rights, invading privacy, denying free speech, denying property rights, denying someone the rights to life giving medicine, denying people the chance to fail and succeed, abandoning friends and family in need, etc, etc.
Yes? Maybe? Not? There is something called "human nature" what is full of such things, unseparatable from the very basics of "being human".
Bad things? Sure! Human things? Absolutely!
The problem starts with the very sheer fact that humans basicly lone creatures, territorial and as such if they are live in great number on a territory they try to became "leaders", "rulers" and\or start wars to expand their territory.
Society is against the very nature of humans. And this results bad things what must be supress forcefully or disband and left the sociey behind. Remember, solitary creatures could co-exist only if they live under certain supression, restrictions.
Quote:
quote:Sterilisation, extermination, whatever...
But let me guess....you don't think you should be one of the ones being sterilized or exterminated.
Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on. I could defend myself, as everyone from my kind. I've seen how foolish the humans are, how greately underestimating their opponents. I saw once someone who cryed loudly after he was defeated quicker than he imagined. His bones were broken one-by-one.
We could defend ourselves. So yes I may not should be the one who will be exterminated.
And sterilised? Where do you know if I am not barren? Sterilisation works only on those whom are not barren basicly...
But nice try for a reply and there is wisdom within it. If you really so cunning as I suspect then you have my respect. But do not hide your true knowledge. Show everything, not just mere shards from it!
____________
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
