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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted January 15, 2012 11:04 PM |
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If you are physically able to do something you are also mature to do it.
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By the way, there seem to be doubts about what "physically able to have sex" means. Some people seem to think that "physically able" is the same thing than "not do die from it". That's not my definition, I seem to have to add to assure everyone that I don't condone sex with babies - in vain, it seems to be clear, since there can be no doubt I'm... a sicko. 
OK, what exactly do you mean by "physically able to have sex?"
You stated (page 5)10 year olds are ready for sex education. Is that the youngest age you want to start sex ed classes at? At what age is a boy "physically able to have sex?" At what age is a girl "physically able to have sex?"
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Revelation
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blizzardboy
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posted January 15, 2012 11:09 PM |
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I don't think a highly educated 40-year-old is able to fully understand the consequences of sex, finances, work life, and driving a car or even a bicycle, but at some point you need to give up on perfection and simply aim for proficiency and then work from there.
If you would like to know when sex education truly begins, it's actually at around the age of 3 or 4. It's when some kid at daycare or preschool listens to some other kid talk about supposedly having a boy/girl friend. 1 or 2 years later, it's when some kid has the brilliant idea of mentioning that girls have a vagina and that boys have a penis. 1 or 2 years after that, it's something else. Kids already get informal sex education. You have the option of going with that and crossing your fingers, or you have the option of letting an adult talk about it in a more formal setting. Neither situation is going to be perfectly ideal for everybody. Even a parent that is with their child almost each and every day isn't going to be able to flawlessly judge when the most comfortable time to ask some of their questions is, assuming that said parent doesn't have advanced telepathic abilities, but take your pick which you would prefer, because kids are getting sex education either way regardless of what the education system or parents decide. The ball is in play with or without your permission.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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JollyJoker
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posted January 15, 2012 11:25 PM |
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OK, what exactly do you mean by "physically able to have sex?"
Just to clear that up (as if it wasn't clear from the start), when I say say physically able I mean the ability to create life by having sex.
It's fairly easy: once a person CAN make use of an ability, it has to be assumed that said person must have the, umm, capacity to be mature enough to make actually use of the ability.
Otherwise, why would nature grant it?
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blizzardboy
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posted January 15, 2012 11:33 PM |
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Quote:
Just to clear that up (as if it wasn't clear from the start), when I say say physically able I mean the ability to create life by having sex.
It's fairly easy: once a person CAN make use of an ability, it has to be assumed that said person must have the, umm, capacity to be mature enough to make actually use of the ability.
Otherwise, why would nature grant it?
Because this
is not the original habitat of people. Life is more sophisticated than it once was.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Aculias
Responsible
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Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted January 15, 2012 11:46 PM |
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Comparing to teaching kids how to walk? You serious Joker?
There are some things in my opinion that really young kids do not need to know YET. Some things they should learn. Like WALKING.
Learning sex at a young age?
That can come later.
They are just kids. Let them play around with friends & stay in school.
They dont need to know about that yet.
They should not know, that is why kids do these things at a very young age.
We are telling them about it.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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JoonasTo
Responsible
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 15, 2012 11:56 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
OK, what exactly do you mean by "physically able to have sex?"
Just to clear that up (as if it wasn't clear from the start), when I say say physically able I mean the ability to create life by having sex.
It's fairly easy: once a person CAN make use of an ability, it has to be assumed that said person must have the, umm, capacity to be mature enough to make actually use of the ability.
Otherwise, why would nature grant it?
So a 9 year old is old enough to have kids?
oookayyy....
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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blizzardboy
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posted January 16, 2012 12:01 AM |
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@Aculius:
Somewhat true, but I think sex ed is rarely the channel through which they learn about it. I had sex ed when I was 11-12 and I don't recall learning a whole lot, other than some snazzy-sounding words like "urethra" (a very lovely word that just rolls off the tongue like the finest silk). I already knew about safe sex, STDs, and other many other things from hearsay and media. I knew that ejaculating inside a girl's vagina would give me a baby, followed by monthly court-ordered "mortgage" payments 
A lot of the education is likely going to be already at least somewhat familiar to them, excluding the rote academic stuff. The idea of sex ed is to make sure the kids have their facts straight instead of having grave and potentially costly misconceptions. I don't think sex education was vital or even significantly helpful to my life, but not everybody is going to be in that position.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Aculias
Responsible
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posted January 16, 2012 12:22 AM |
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Yea i guess it does depend on the child.
I am more worried that they do get curious.
You are more aware about it.
Then if there was no sex ed until maybe 3-4 years later, they wont have to even think or even know about it yet.
I could be wrong though.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted January 16, 2012 01:45 AM |
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and I said, I wouldn't have had a problem IF my daughter have had sex age 12 (the reason is that I would have been fairly sure she would NOT be too immature if she had, because I have tried to "protect" her with a responsible education.)
I think some real honesty is called for here JJ. You would have been appalled. A 12 year old is a child. And if your daughter had indeed had sex at that age, you would have gone straight to the police. Just because you know your daughter, her intelligence etc etc, does not mean you would have been okay with her having sex at 12. You have your head in the clouds here.
You are taking an adults stance here, based on nothing but your own view now at your age. And that is the problem, adults debating what is the right age for children to have sex ed. or even when they are physically able to have sex is totally flawed. Many thousands of years ago, girls menstruated much earlier and therefore because they died (if they were lucky) at about 40, they matured earlier and had children earlier.
However, times have changed. We don't live in caves and we now develop later. And just because a girl can menstruate at 8 (yes that does happen), it certainly does not mean she is even capable of having sex, bearing children and having the emotional maturity to cope with any of that. It is why we have our Age of Consent laws. To protect our children from predatory adults and themselves .... why because they are not on average mentally mature enough to treat sex with the proper respect and understanding it deserves.
Being deemed 'physically capable' of something doesn't mean you practice it, especially something as important as sex and your body.
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Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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selcy
Famous Hero
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posted January 16, 2012 01:53 AM |
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I totally agree with you Meroe well said.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
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Duke of the Glade
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posted January 16, 2012 06:24 AM |
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M'kay... JJ, we may have problems here... *Inner psychologist shudders*
But you're getting enough heat for that, so let me point out what I think is the only real valid point that has been made on his side of the argument, and one that was overlooked 12+ times... It is sex ed. Now, you guys may not remember what was covered in said classes (for cristsake, ti was 10-20 years ago for some of you), but it basically boils down to this: "Don't have sex until you are much older. Don't have sex with a person who doesn't want it. Don't have unprotected sex. Be safe with your partner. Ask your partner if they have any diseases." That is it. I recently was a rep from the high school who was asked to give a presentation to elementary children (I thought it would be slightly awkward, the damn 10-12 year old kids didn't hear one bloody word I said), and that was the focus of half an hour, with questions. One girl (Heaven forbid!) did ask what sex was, bringing giggles from her two friends, and I told her to ask her parents like I was "Instructed" (Why the hell am I going to explain this to a pre-teen? What the hell kind of kids did they have working on this job before...) to.
Thing is, I actually remember when I went through sex ed (it was only ~5 years ago), and it boils down to the same thing. I learned more about sex, drugs and alcohol from the Simpsons than the "Classes," and fond the thoughts of such things to be icky. Really, I just thought the classes were happy breaks from regularly scheduled class, along with our "classes" on alcohol and drugs (knocked out all three in one week), which boiled down to "Don't do drugs/ drink." Honestly, I see no problem with teaching said classes in an elementary setting, since they are harmless and the kids won't be paying attention to them anyway. I'll admit that commanding 10 years olds to obey these rules may be a bit paranoid, but that's about ho far I would go with calling it "Bad" or "Evil."
Once again, such classes do not teach how to do something, but what you should do to make it safe. They do not tell you where to get things, or how to obtain items to carry out such activities as sex, drinking or drug abuse, but that you should avoid it instead. Just sayin', as a recently federally accepted (elementary) teacher of such subjects, that's all that is told.
Edit: Also, I must applaud you all at adding 4 pages of the same thing to the discussion. I stopped trying to read everything after page 6, and was still able to accurately put your arguments together.  Just give the JJ bashing a short break, M'kay?
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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JollyJoker
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posted January 16, 2012 09:22 AM |
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They can bash me all they want - they still have no point.
Every investigation made says that kids get pregnant, AIDS or some mean disease not because of sex ed, but because of THE LACK of it.
The LACK of knowledge.
You were (are) all young enough to know that kids are trying things out. Take alcohol; cigarettes; drugs; games and movies rated 17+ or 18+; sex as well; ANYTHING.
Is "you are too young for that" going to deter kids from trying to conquer for them what the grown-ups are allowed to?
It's NOT. At least not for a sizable percentage.
On the other hand there are lots of "inofficial" information available, information that may be contradictory and therefore confusing. Inofficial info may even be wrong.
The only sensible way to go is to start an influx of official info in a time when the inofficial info didn't do all the work and may have left the wrong imprints.
Sadly, with all the people who are so emotionally fussing about the continued "innocence" of children, what is speaking out of them is the "sex-guilt" education so common. All that talk ... reading it you would think, sex is the equivalent of the dirty nuclear bomb or something, destined to taint and corrupt the kids, once they know the lowdown. "Get curious" - God beware; sex is of course such a terrible thing, that you have to keep it from them as long as possible.
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I think some real honesty is called for here JJ. You would have been appalled. A 12 year old is a child. And if your daughter had indeed had sex at that age, you would have gone straight to the police. Just because you know your daughter, her intelligence etc etc, does not mean you would have been okay with her having sex at 12. You have your head in the clouds here.
Give me a break, please. We are talking about sex ed, and the purpose of sex ad is to avoid this - but if it DOES happen, and BOTH are underage (as opposed to the guy being 17 or something): what would you call the police for? Cold showers for all?
Kids do all sorts of thing, and the less accurate info they have the worse the consequences will be. Giving them accurate info early enough that it counts is the best way to protect kids. And ACCURATE means UNBIASSED here. Abstinence education, for example, is BIASSED, and while it may succeed in some cases to deter kids from having sex before a certain age or even before marriage, there will be a lot of cases with the opposite effect: kids are prone to note discrepancies here, and there is big discrepancy between teaching and reality, since "sex" is everywhere. If abstinence is the aim, then why, for example, sexy clothes? Perfume? Makeup?
The truth is, that sex is an extremely important part not only of every individual's life, but of society as a whole. That is REALITY. Whether it's about the number of sexually motivated assaults, whether it's the use of a specific f-word that is virtually omnipresent, we cannot deny it.
Adolescence has nothing to do with age. It has something to do with hormonal changes. If the hormons are produced, if the body is able to reproduce, than the hormonal situation is different as well. The hormonal situation is not a question of "mental maturity" whatever that is. It doesn't matter, if the adolescent seems very childlike - that doesn't change the hormonal facts, and these hormonal facts lead to certain feelings, whether that person is 12, 14, 16 or 30. It's important for a person to understand these hormonal changes - after all it actually HAPPENS to them.
We all want our children to make informed decisions. So we should act accordingly.
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SELCY
Famous Hero
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posted January 16, 2012 09:33 AM |
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I NEVER SAID CHILDREN SHOULDN'T HAVE SEX EDUCATION I JUST SAID I THINK 10 YEARS OLD IS TOO YOUNG, OF COURSE CHILDREN SHOULD LEARN ABOUT SEX, REPRODUCTION AND BEING SAFE
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Aculias
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posted January 16, 2012 09:40 AM |
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Kids experiment alot from bad influences or seeing habbits from parents etc.
How bad influences starts.
From other kids who learn or see things.
Kids pick up habits from heroes & parents they look up to.
Alot of kids in my days experimented when they were 12-15 years old & i was no exception.
That is as a parent why we teach kids.
We dont want repeated mistakes.
As kids learn & see bad habits we do in such a young age, i feel like we failed to show them all of the right things.
I think sex ed is a must, it teaches kids the dangers in it.
I just think 10 may be too young.
They should not even have to worry about it.
I know where your coming from Joker.
It is very debatable like Political debates.
Everyone has different opinions.
It dont make a person a bad parent.
There is no perfect parenting.
In this time of age, maybe kids do need to be aware, because other kids are becoming aware in a rapid young age.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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JollyJoker
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posted January 16, 2012 09:53 AM |
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Yes. And I never said, 12-year-olds should have sex with each other.
I just said, since it is POSSIBLE for them to have sex, they should have all the pertinent info, so 10 seems just about RIGHT, while 13 is too late - at that age they long have at least some half-knowledge. For example, it is considered normal that age 3-7 children are curious where babies come from, so first info will be given at that age, when they ask questions.
I also dared to mention, there is nothing wrong with sex as such, so it can't be wrong to to teach and enlighten kids about it and some of its socially and individually quite important implications, and in an age when accurate info - as opposed to inofficial lore - may make an impression and help.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 16, 2012 10:06 AM |
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They should not even have to worry about it.
But it is nothing to WORRY about.
It's something to LOOK FORWARD to - but as with basically everything there are pitfalls, dangers and whatnot, and for everything there is not only a time and a place, but also opportunities that may NOT be the right time and the right place. So it's not only something to look forward to, but something a certain responsibility is needed for to handle it satisfactorily.
That is not different from everything else: the older a child gets, the more will be "allowed" and the more things children are able to do - a lot of those may be fun or great to do, but there's always dangers and responsibilities: allow a kid a bike, and biking will be fun, but there are dangers and responsibilities coming with it, and so before you let your kid bike you'll teach him or her a lot about traffic and what to avoid and so on.
Sex is no exception. IT IS FUN AS WELL! But there are a couple of HOWEVERS as well.
We have to tell our children that. Yes, it IS fun, for heaven's sake, because everything seems to hint to it anyway, BUT there are some aspects that may SPOIL it, and spoil it rather massively.
What is so difficult?
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Aculias
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posted January 16, 2012 04:24 PM |
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Yea they got nothing to worry about except for one thing. THEY ARE JUST KIDS lol.
They want to experiment. They think they are invincible.
Even when we teach them, they want to try to experiment as well.
Maybe you want to risk it, but I would rather not take the chances.
You dodged a bullet with your daughter, but kids are different.
Next time it could be a life changer.
Dodging one bullet does not mean it is always right.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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JollyJoker
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posted January 16, 2012 04:55 PM |
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As if you could control it.
They do or they don't, but doing something based on solid facts seems to be better than leaving them to questionable info.
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted January 16, 2012 05:03 PM |
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As if you could control it.
They do or they don't, but doing something based on solid facts seems to be better than leaving them to questionable info.
That's right you can't control it, but what you don't do is leave it to school to choose how and when your children are taught sex ed. (their way). They will probably tell them things you do not think are appropriate .... I can list some of the things they told my brother if you like.
As a parent you educate your children, your way. At home, your morals, your understanding, your rules. Its a parent's responsibility to educate and prepare their children for grown up life, not the school. I had to educate my brother for example (my parents are useless, don't ask). He was so damn confused after his first school Sex Education Class, I ended up having to explain practically everything, which wasn't easy for me, but it was a hell of a lot better than the skewed rubbish he was getting from school.
Leaving something as important as sex ed. to a school is where it all goes wrong. Hell they learn most of it from the damn porn on the internet, which is about as real as Kim Kardashian's butt!!!!
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Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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JollyJoker
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posted January 16, 2012 05:18 PM |
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I don't see your problem. If you don't like what they teach in school or how they are doing, you have to do it yourself before they start.
However, it is right that school DOES it - otherwise (I point to your "useless" parents there might be no sex ed whatsoever or, what may be probably even worse, a WRONG one with wrong facts.
For a lot of people sex is a delicate issue, which makes communication between parents and children difficult in many cases.
Sex education is not different from other education in the sense that a child has a RIGHT to get all the pertinent facts to know society deems worthy and necessary to know and not only those their parents are ready to make available to them.
Just as an example, there may be parents who don't want to tell their children about contraception because they are against it. STILL, the child has the right to know about their existance.
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