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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 29, 2008 07:15 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 19:16, 29 Sep 2008.
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Atk: 6
Def: 5
Dmg: 1 - 16 
Int: 11
Spd: 5
Hp: 14
Shots: 16
forgot : immune to curse err... immune to bless...
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 29, 2008 07:17 PM |
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Exactly. I was talking about something like that
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 29, 2008 09:13 PM |
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What about:
Arcane Archer
Attack: 1
Defence: 1
Damagee: 1-1
Health: 3
Initiative: 8
Speed: 4
Shots: 4
Force Arrow: Negates 1 % of enemy defence.
Don't forget that the Master Hunter is also a pretty potent unit. I seem to recall that people were actually whining about Master Hunters being overpowered until TOTE came out. Yes, we might wanna make the Arcane Archers less powerful, but we don't want to make them a joke. Reducing Force Arrow from 50 % to 10 % is bordering on that, if you ask me.
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What will happen now?
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sweetcake
Hired Hero
Hi I'm Sweetcake, who are you?
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posted September 29, 2008 09:15 PM |
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i don't mind the Arcane archers being overpowered. Infact I don't use them until late game. I focus at first to get Unicorns. And then I want to take the druids and then I will get The arcane archers.
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The sweetest little cake in the world.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 29, 2008 09:16 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 21:16, 29 Sep 2008.
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@Alc: Check out Nebdar's comparison on previous page. The AA's (in my solution with 20% defense reduction and 7-8 damage) still do considerably more damage than MHs from far range, and their power increases as the defense of the enemy hero increases as well.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 29, 2008 09:23 PM |
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Quote:
@Alc: Check out Nebdar's comparison on previous page. The AA's (in my solution with 20% defense reduction and 7-8 damage) still do considerably more damage than MHs from far range, and their power increases as the defense of the enemy hero increases as well.
Well yeah, obviously the key lies in the line from far range. I think the point we should reach is that Arcane Archers ARE better than Master Hunters, unless they are shooting at point blank range. This would make Master Hunters your favored early game choice (unless you have a domination of ranged creeps, in which case you might wanna go for Arcanes anyway), whereas Arcane Archers would be your late game choice, where it would mostly be a matter of getting one critical hit in on the enemy ranged unit.
Notice that in that sense, I think it's fair that AA has an initiative of 11, which gives them a fair shot at acting before most other shooters and enemy heroes (w/o Swift Mind). In late game, they are a one-hit wonder, so to speak.
Also, I think Warding Arrow is potentially disregarded. Problem is that it triggered too rarely in the old versions, but with the new Proc factors, I think they made up for that - and otherwise, we can make it trigger more often. Reducing ATB by 0.20 is deffinitely something which is worth considering.
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What will happen now?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 29, 2008 09:38 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 21:40, 29 Sep 2008.
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Quote:
@Alc: Check out Nebdar's comparison on previous page. The AA's (in my solution with 20% defense reduction and 7-8 damage) still do considerably more damage than MHs from far range, and their power increases as the defense of the enemy hero increases as well.
maybe the problem is more the basic damage than the defense reduction?
also, the comparison was done on a long range shot (I think) where master hunters only inflict half the normal damage.
Quote:
Arcane Archer
Attack: 1
Defence: 1
Damagee: 1-1
Health: 3
Initiative: 8
Speed: 4
Shots: 4
Force Arrow: Negates 1 % of enemy defence.
Are you crazy??!!??
it is WAY better than a peasant
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted September 29, 2008 11:18 PM |
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Quote:
maybe the problem is more the basic damage than the defense reduction?
also, the comparison was done on a long range shot (I think) where master hunters only inflict half the normal damage.
Yes it was a long range shoot because i wanted to test them i normal battle conditions, so without Unicorn Horn Bow. My idea of balancing the Aracane Archer is to make AA and MH being a master of bow but the AA at long range and MH at short range. So that one is good in offensive situation and one in defensive.
Did anybody read me post about how many shoots can MH at close range on each faction
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dainbramaged
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 30, 2008 05:57 AM |
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Quote:
It would make them weaker indeed, but I don't like the idea. Too much random IMO.
I mean, if it triggers the enemy is massacred, while if it doesn't the AA's will be weaker (in general) than MHs... I don't like so "critical" random things
Randomness has always been a big part of HoMM, though, which is why I included it. Luck, morale, randomised chests, damage ranges, etc. have been staples of the series, and V has included more with hp-dependant procs and (dare I ruin my argument with this) incorporeal.
Knowing pretty much nothing about coding, why would it be difficult to make the defence reduction dependant on the proc? FA already uses target health before the hit is made, so there wouldn't be a conflict there.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 30, 2008 01:03 PM |
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Quote:
and V has included more with hp-dependant procs
it depends on a hps comparison, so it's less random.
Quote:
Knowing pretty much nothing about coding, why would it be difficult to make the defence reduction dependant on the proc?
because we only have access to the data files. we can't modify what the source code do, we can only modify the data it uses.
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dainbramaged
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 01, 2008 08:59 AM |
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Ahh, right. I was taking this more as a wishlist for a patch which may or may not happen rather than suggestions for modding.
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted October 01, 2008 03:48 PM |
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Edited by Nebdar at 22:30, 05 Oct 2008.
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Quote:
Ahh, right. I was taking this more as a wishlist for a patch which may or may not happen rather than suggestions for modding.
Here are some balance mods.
Quote:
How many times will enemy get close to MHs before they are wiped out?
Thats mainly faction dependant and of course the player and his tactic. AA for Offensive factions(creatures), MH for Defensive ones.
IMO the best unit against faction are:(if implement balanced mod/patch/fix that you can dwonload here)
Academy: Arcane Archers. They pretty defensive faction, 3 shooters, the only unit that will charge and risk getting hit by Master Hunters full power two arrows would Rakshasas(So maybe 1 or 2 shoots at full power). MH could have it's uses because the warding arrow but it's your choice wipe out faster with AA or wound and delay with MH but you are at risk that you get overspelled to much.
Dungeon: Arcane Archers or/with Master Hunters .2 shooters and Blood Furies the best elimnatior would be AA but you can be sure that some Dragons and Raiders will come close and attack you supported by Hydras and Minotaurs maybe and thats when Treant and MH can come handy.(So maybe 2-3 shoots at full power). Here also is a risk getting overpowered by empowered spells.
Haven: Arcane Archers or/with Master Hunters. The situation look almost as Dungeons 2 shooters and Squires that are the target for AA and your MH will definetly have a chanace to shoot at Cavaliers or Angels at their full power(So maybe 2-3 shoots).
Inferno: Master Hunters. You would definetly have plenty of chances to attack at full power (if not blocked) because of gatting and only one shooter/seducer. The first target probably be Nightmares, Cerberi followed by Devils and Imps. The AA would be here less useful due to Ranged Retaliation of Succubi. You must just Defend the MH from blocking and then you will have a chance for maybe 2-5 powerfull shoots.
Necropolis: Arcane Archers or/with Master Hunters. Overall rather defensive and slow faction with 1/2 shooters good target for AA, but
when an Necro player will try to attack with Ghost, Vampires, Wights, or Bone Dragons the MH would prove handy(So maybe 1-3 shoots at full power). IMO Necro creatures are weak and slow so you probably will fight with them on th middle of the battelfield with small chance of getting at range when MH can prove useful.
Sylvan: Arcane Archers or/with Master Hunters. 2 shooters needed to be dealt quickly that the job for AA and the rest of creatures will be charging on your position with or without Treants, so their is a possiblity that your MH will aim at Blade Dancers, Dragons, Dryads and Unicorns with power.(So maybe 1-4 shoots at full power)
Fortress: Arcane Archers or/with Master Hunters. Defense faction no doubt about it, but sometimes thier best defence is offence(with the help of the rune of charge). 2 Shooters and ShieldGuards they will probably stay in back so AA will do their job pretty well. You can be sure that the rest will haunt you on the battlefield and there can be an moment when Two Ward Arrow can come handy.(So maybe 1-4 shoots at full power)
Stronghold: Arcane Archers or/with Master Hunters. They must push forward and attack. From these two the attack is only sure. Stronghold will use always Centaurs as shooter or sometimes even Cyclops the Goblins will stay behind with Shamans this situation would be good to use AA. But when you see charging Cyclops, Maulers, Earth Daugther, Paokai, Executioners the MH is the best to teach them an lesson and drain precious rage points.(So maybe 1-4 shoots at full power)
Of course everything depends on sitaution and your judgment
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atheist
Hired Hero
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posted May 19, 2010 03:25 AM |
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Edited by atheist at 04:16, 19 May 2010.
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I have started a debate on the matter, because I think the issue is not settled. If anybody thinks he is up to the task of debating me, can consider himself invited.
Then, after unbiased audience votes, we'll see who has more merit.
Debate is composed of 2 rounds, limited to 4000 characters. As proposer, I have listed my arguments already. Time to respond for each round before forfeit is 72 hours. MH FTW!
http://www.debate.org/debate/12088/
PS. By the way as time passes, the poll shows more reliable data! Only 60% players think it's overpowered, 40% do not. So clearly Arcanes are not that good, or else more people would have chosen to vote for them being overpowered.
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Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
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posted May 19, 2010 08:20 AM |
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first of all, sorry because i can't read the whole thread from the beginning. I think that before anything else we should determine what overpowered means. I can't see as overpowered a unit that can die with one shot from the opponent or become useless after a spell.
And if Arcanes are overpowered, what about paladins and champions?
What about familiars that can destroy the opponent's mana? What about the unicorns? What about the princes? etc etc
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 19, 2010 09:43 AM |
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Clearly 40% of you are noobs then And overpowered as compared to its tier of course or as compared to its alternative.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
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posted May 19, 2010 10:51 AM |
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sorry but a noob is someone who is absolute to his opinion. you cannot call a creature overpower comparing it to its other upgrade or only to the other tiers. because for example treants are not as good as champions. dancers are not as good as centaurs. so it is not tier to tier.
arcanes can die instantly and that makes them non-overpowered.
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
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atheist
Hired Hero
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posted May 19, 2010 11:41 AM |
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Quote:
Clearly 40% of you are noobs then And overpowered as compared to its tier of course or as compared to its alternative.
How is 40% this any better then 60%? Argument from majority? 60% are noobs, because instead of responding to arguments , resort to irony and insult.
Yes, of course, the discussion is strictly in comparison to Master Hunter alternative upgrade, I for one never said otherwise. Both are very good units, to compensate for weakness of tier 6 which is weak.
Both upgrades are very well balanced, this is why developers of the game did not change their statistics, Nuff said..
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted May 19, 2010 12:39 PM |
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The problem is theory hardly ever stands up in reality. In THEORY they both have pro's and cons that make them equal. A Master Hunter up close (but not in melee range) has the edge. At range, against low teir opponits (1-3), they retain a slight edge. At range against higher teir enemies (4-7), the AA's have the edge.
All this is at least in theory. However, game experience kicks that theory in the sack and calls it names. Of course I do not want anybody to take my word for this. So, I am hoping a map maker will help me in proving what I am about to say, because I have seen what Arcanes can do to high teir enemies..and it isn't pretty. MH's just have NO ability to keep up, even with archers dream (a very situational thing). Even at mid range.
What you need. Two HUMAN players..(I will explain why)..and Two fight with no dwellings, artifacts (at least on the first run, archers dream on the second) etc. You will need Four heroes (TWO for the 'sylvan' player..two for the fights that I am about to explain).
First set a Sylvan hero with 20 of each Arcane Archers, and Master Hunters. Each Fight will have 2 100 stacks of Arch Angels (more on this).
The first fight will have only luck artifacts, no stat boosters, etc. The sylvan hero should be first level (as should the enemy hero) and stand doing absolutely nothing. They should be as far away as possible.
The enemy hero will just have the Arch Angels wait. The Sylvan hero can not close the gap, but must fire from where the units they are placed on the field. Hopefully all obsticles are removed, but if not, as long as they stay on their side of the field the MH's and AA's may move so that the obsticles are not between them and the Angels. The Angels may assist this, but may not move where the obsticles are blocking shots.
The Arcanes and the MH get exactly 4 'turns' of shots each. They each get a target stack of Angels, and must only hit that stack. See how many angels have been killed at the end of those shots (doesn't matter if the AA's get to fire more often..this is about how many each can kill given the same number of attacks).
Now the next fight..you can throw in the Archers Dream..but it won't make a difference because of how the fight will be set up.
This time, the player controling the Arch Angels move them to close (but not melee) range. Say 3 squares away. During this time, the Arcanes and MH do not attack.
Once the Arch's are 3 squares away, the Arcanes and MH get again 4 'turns' of shots each. Point blank range. See how many are left standing. I can almost guarantee that even with OPTIMAL point blank range..the Arcanes will have killed a LOT more Arch's.
This does not only go for Arch Angels or teir 7's though. Any high defense unit..run the same test..you will find the same EMPERICAL evidence.
Sylvan is more offensive (by far) then defensive. You want to deal as much damage as possible in the shortest of time possible. Arcanes are vastly superior for that. You want the first strike, and as hard as you can. Thus Arcanes ARE the superior choice, and it is not even a close choice, because the MH are way to situational.
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Message received.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 19, 2010 01:10 PM |
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Quote:
this is why developers of the game did not change their statistics, Nuff said..
Wait what?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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bloodlover
Hired Hero
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posted May 19, 2010 02:57 PM |
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I voted overpowered because of two reasons : they are much stronger than other creatures of same tier and they are a huge advantage in early game (and here I am talking even about hunter and master hunter). End game content is mostly irrelevant since every battle is different depending on your enemy and your character
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This thread is pages long: 
