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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 08, 2008 08:34 PM |
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To clear some things about Luck (because Atheist doesn't seem to get it)
This is how it works in case of MH and AA:
Suppose you roll a dice with 4 faces.
If you get the number 1, no lucky shots involved.
If you get the number 2, MH has the first shot lucky (150% damage)
If you get the number 3, MH has the second shot lucky (150% damage), AA has the shot lucky (200% damage)
If you get the number 4, MH has both shots lucky (200% damage), AA has the shot lucky (200% damage)
Which is better? None. That's because in the 2nd case, MH deals 150% damage while AA 100% damage. But in the 3rd case, MH deals 150% damage while AA 200% damage. The first and last cases are equal to both.
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7
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 08, 2008 09:24 PM |
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IT'S NOT THE SAME!!!
Again with the four battles- imagine you're fighting 10 druids in all of them.You have enough MHs to kill all of them with one lucky shot and enough AAs to kill them with luck.MHs will always kill the druids and the AAs will kill them only with lucky so if you don't get lucky you won't kill them all and you may lose some troops- this is the diffrence
Though it's only theoretical
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 08, 2008 09:26 PM |
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Yes you are right, AAs may waste their luck bonus damage since it is not "split" up like in the MH case, but Atheist's point that overall MH can deal more damage with luck than AA was wrong
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 08, 2008 10:43 PM |
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7 > Your Math is simply not true. MH will not ALWAYS suffer good luck, there is a chance they won't score any good luck at all, although it is admittedly smaller than that of AA's.
However, that is no argument as why they are better or worse, that is completely situational. Sometimes you might need them to score FULL Luck bonus in order to take out a stack (i.e. 150 % damage < stack health < 200 % damage). In this case, AA's a better, because they have a larger chance of taking out the stack completely. All we can say is that, even though they will do on average the same damage, they are not eaqual, MH have less variation in their damage than AA's.
And yes, I think it's a good point that Warding Arrow is too weak. Had Warding Arrow been better and had Force Arrow been equally less über (say: Ignores 25 % Defence) the two units had been perfectly good.
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What will happen now?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 08, 2008 11:07 PM |
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Atheist: Actually no matter how godly players will tell me I'm wrong, I will not believe, because the damage formula of this game is given in manual, and everyone can count at which point the damage of arcane archers and Master hunters WITH the unicorn horn bow gets equal.
It's 23 or 24 def, something around that.
Above that, AA will deal more damage, no matter if you have the Unicorn horn bow or not 
This is pure math. You obviously can't deny it, as much as you can't deny that the earth isn't flat.
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Isabel
Known Hero
Dragonblessed
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posted July 09, 2008 03:26 AM |
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Edited by Isabel at 03:34, 09 Jul 2008.
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MH:
Att: 5
Def: 4
Dam: 5-8
HP: 14
Ini: 10
Special: Double damage when shooting
AA:
Att: 6
Def: 5
Dam: 8-9
HP: 14
Ini: 11
Special: Double damage when shooting from far range, ignore 50% enemy defense
So yeah, when shooting MH deals 10-16 damage, that is 13 average. AA deals 8.5 average.
If with range penalty...
Master Hunter does 6.5 damage
Arcane Archer does 8.5 damage
Without range penalty... (Suppose they don't have heroes  )
1. When the defense is 20...
Master Hunter does 13 * 0.571 = 7.423 damage
Arcane Archer does 8.5 * 0.833= 7.0805 damage
2. When the defense is 23...
Master Hunter does 13 * 0.526 = 6.838 damage
Arcane Archer does 8.5 * 0.784= 6.664 damage
3. When the defense is 24...
Master Hunter does 13 * 0.513 = 6.669 damage
Arcane Archer does 8.5 * 0.769= 6.537 damage
Quote:
It's 23 or 24 def, something around that.
I believe Arcanes will do more damage when the target has defense above 24, so 23 and 24 are both wrong 
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Plague
Known Hero
Only Hell know my pain
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posted July 09, 2008 06:23 AM |
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I can say that arcane archers are very strong,especialy with Osir.They have good dmg,big inintiative and a phantome phorce is deadly.But i know a game where arcane archers were no problem.Behind my wals,with evasion skill and skeleton warior arcane archers was no a threat.
Are spells like Confusion,PM,DV wich can beat them,but till u cast these spell,if u are not behind the wall and u are in an open batle,then arcane archers is a real threat,my nightmare when i play against Sylvan.
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The biggest evil that you can do is to do nothing.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 09, 2008 08:42 AM |
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well, I haven't calculated the exact value, I was just guessing I've calculated it for the def of 20 and it was pretty close already.
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espen15
Famous Hero
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posted July 09, 2008 11:15 AM |
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Yeah arcanes are overpowered votimg results show that very clearly and if you do mathematics then it shows too that arcanes are overpowered
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted July 09, 2008 11:45 AM |
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Quote:
7 > Your Math is simply not true. MH will not ALWAYS suffer good luck, there is a chance they won't score any good luck at all, although it is admittedly smaller than that of AA's.
However, that is no argument as why they are better or worse, that is completely situational. Sometimes you might need them to score FULL Luck bonus in order to take out a stack (i.e. 150 % damage < stack health < 200 % damage). In this case, AA's a better, because they have a larger chance of taking out the stack completely. All we can say is that, even though they will do on average the same damage, they are not eaqual, MH have less variation in their damage than AA's.
And yes, I think it's a good point that Warding Arrow is too weak. Had Warding Arrow been better and had Force Arrow been equally less über (say: Ignores 25 % Defence) the two units had been perfectly good.
I think the extra initiative is also to be removed - that alone makes me want to take Arcane Archers, because MH:s and AA:s are fragile but do a lot of damage. They need to shoot first or they might get killed before doing anything.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Atheist
Hired Hero
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posted July 09, 2008 04:40 PM |
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Quote:
Yes, consider both have 5 luck. That gives:
AA:
50 % chance for 200 % damage (good luck).
50 % chance for 100 % damage (no luck).
Average: 150 % damage.
MH:
25 % chance for 200 % damage (2 x good luck).
50 % chance for 150 % damage (1 x good luck).
25 % chance for 100 % damage (no luck).
Average: 150 % damage.
Notice, however, that Master Hunters will generally be more reliable in doing semi-high damage - or, in other words, the chance of doing "only" normal damage is low. However, the chance of doing maximum damage is equally low.
Let me read from the manual, page 315.
When the hero has the Soldier's Luck ability, the creature abilities discussed above will get an additional chance to trigger, if the first doesn't. In the example above, if the Squires' Bash did not trigger within the first 44.5%, then dice would be rolled a second time, with the same 44.5% probability, giving it a second
chance. Mathematically, the total chance with Soldier's Luck is 1-(1-P)2, where P is the first attempt chance as calculated above. In the
Squires vs Dark Raiders example, P=44.5%, leading to a total chance of triggering of about69.2% with Soldier's Luck.
You see, Elf's double shot is just like soldier's luck for the Luck skill. It gives it 2 chances to trigger. So in your example above for the Master Hunter, If he has 5 luck he will have 50% chance for 1 luck trigger With only one strikeBut he has 2 strikes, and the overall chance for 150% damage ( 1 trigger out of 2 ) , is higher then 50% , probably something like 70%.
It is sad that a presumably informed moderator cannot grasp a simple mathematical fact. And now I debunked your numbers with your own manual.
Please let me say something before I go. When I registered on this forum I was hoping to participate into some interesting discutions about the game, to exchange ideas, strategies, etc. It is sad to see that the self entitled legendary heroes think they know everything already and exhibit dogmatic zelotry to defend their points, instead of real-game experience and factual claims.(like i did) Unfortunately it seems that already some hostility has mounted up towards me to the point that I'm afraid of trying to further explain lest you call me a forum troll.
I am dissapointed by this to the point that I no longer want to be counted amongst this forum's users. I politely request that my account here be deleted. Have a nice day and many good games.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 09, 2008 04:56 PM |
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Quote:
You see, Elf's double shot is just like soldier's luck for the Luck skill. It gives it 2 chances to trigger. So in your example above for the Master Hunter, If he has 5 luck he will have 50% chance for 1 luck trigger With only one strikeBut he has 2 strikes, and the overall chance for 150% damage ( 1 trigger out of 2 ) , is higher then 50% , probably something like 70%.
I'm really tired to hear your incorrect assumptions, but I will spell it out in bold english so you can understand.
One lucky shot of a MASTER HUNTER is not ENOUGH to compensate for one lucky shot of a ARCANE ARCHER. It's like dividing the damage in 2. One lucky shot of an ARCANE ARCHER is EQUAL to TWO LUCKY SHOTS FOR A MASTER HUNTER.
A Master Hunter needs two LUCKY SHOTS to count as a FULL LUCKY SHOT (that is, deal full luck damage). An Arcane Archer needs ONLY ONE LUCKY SHOT to count as a FULL LUCKY SHOT.
Wheras the Master Hunter has more chance to trigger a semi-lucky shot (the first or the second; so this is a GOOD point for the MH), he has LOWER chance to deal a FULL LUCKY SHOT (2 lucky shots in a row; which is BAD point for the MH).
Thus, the GOOD point above and the BAD point above cancel each other.
That is, the master hunter needs to roll out a luck TWO TIMES to have a "full lucky shot". This is worse than the Arcane Archer, even if the Master Hunter has more chance to trigger ONE lucky shot (half luck --> 150% damage).
One lucky shot of the Master Hunter makes 150% damage, not 200%, because the next shot might not be lucky!
I know (to those that know math) that my description above is lame, but I am really annoyed to see someone who can not understand this very simple FACT (which has been explained by numerous users), and I had to put it in a stupid-english kind of way to make him understand.
Quote:
I am dissapointed by this to the point that I no longer want to be counted amongst this forum's users. I politely request that my account here be deleted. Have a nice day and many good games.
If you can't understand math, then why do you expect discussions? To go with "hey Atheist, your math is superb, I'll have to agree with ya!"
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 09, 2008 05:08 PM |
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It's funny how much discussion this topic has taken. Maths aside I'm sure you have tried to see which works better on the battlefield. By far. To the point it is not even funny.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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atheist
Hired Hero
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posted July 09, 2008 05:09 PM |
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Edited by atheist at 17:11, 09 Jul 2008.
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Somebody forgot to take his meds? 
Calm down, sir. I was only showing that the chance is not 50% but more. Easy now, easy. Nub.
edit - this message was 4 the death, just so u know.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 09, 2008 05:13 PM |
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Quote:
Calm down, sir. I was only showing that the chance is not 50% but more. Easy now, easy. Nub.
Correction: The chance is more than 50% for one lucky shot. For two lucky shots, the chance is LESS than 50%, thus the two average at 50%
Why did I use that bold and capitals? Because you ignore every single math post (or don't understand  ) so at least I thought you can understand plain english.
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atheist
Hired Hero
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posted July 09, 2008 05:20 PM |
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Edited by atheist at 18:23, 09 Jul 2008.
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Edit : [ offensive language removed - i was out of temper ]
READ MANUAL PAGE 315 [ofeensive adjective removed]. If what you said was true Soldier's Luck would be useless.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 09, 2008 05:23 PM |
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I suggest that you edit your post, such behaviour is not accepted here. Next time I will be forced to penalize so please keep your calm.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Anakrom
Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
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posted July 09, 2008 05:25 PM |
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Quote:
If what you said was true Soldier's Luck would be useless.
Soldier´s Luck affects only creature´s triggering abilities (such as Bash, Paw Strike and such). Luck (thus double damage) isn´t triggering ability. I believe that you and Death mean different things, since Soldier´s Luck affects Warding Arrow, but not Lucky strike in any way.
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Result matters
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 09, 2008 05:28 PM |
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Atheist, you really can't understand math, can you? I don't think it's worth to repeat the same stuff many users said until now because it seems you can't understand basic math. After all, you can't make a blind man understand the colors no matter how much you try.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted July 09, 2008 05:34 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 17:35, 09 Jul 2008.
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Soldiers Luck is completely different, it does NOT affect if a creature gets luck (double damage) or not. It affects special abilities. Special abilities trigger only once. Let's say that an ability happens when you roll a 6 with a dice. IF you roll 6 immediately, Soldiers Luck does not come into play. If you roll any other number, that is forgotten, and you get to throw the dice SECOND time for the ability to take effect.
It is complelety different than getting luck(double damage), which simply happens or not with a percentage. If it is 50%, then it is 50%. If the Master Hunters don't get lucky on first shot, it doesn't affect their second shot in any way! The probability for getting Luck at second shot is still the 50%.
But yes, probability for getting at least 1 lucky shot is 75%! I don't think anyone is denying that, but just considering that Master Hunters do half of their total damage in one shot. Getting Luck on 1 shot alone doen't double all of their damage, that happens only when they get Luck at both shots (25% change)
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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This thread is pages long: 
