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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 05, 2008 08:46 PM |
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That too 
So there we now got a reasonable thing:
Hero's uber spells > Arcane Archer
But the AA is uber creep slayer
So it is balance(so long stronghold is not involved?)
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted July 05, 2008 09:09 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 21:14, 05 Jul 2008.
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Listen,
Arcane Archers ARE overpowered (they are, with good reason, called IMBA). However, there are a few cases inwhich the Masters are superior to the Arcanes: 1) when facing lvl 1 and 2 units 2) when facing tiers 1-3 in the Army of a Warlock/Wizard 3) when you have the Archer's Dream 4) when the creatures are standing soo close to you, the they don't have a Ranged Penalty.
However, all these occurances are quite rare, and so it's overall better to pick Arcanes.
They do have some weaknesses though: 1) their abysmal 14 HPs, make them extremely fragile. 2) weak Defence (though that is buffed by the Ranger's high Defence) 3) The exposure to Dark Magic: Arcanes are amongst to the creatures who must fear Dark Magic. Confusion, Decay, Puppet Master, Vulnerability, Slow, CotN, Blindness, Suffering,... the Dark Magic school has an enormous potential, when it comes to eliminating Arcanes (in a 1001 ways)
That compensates a bit their overall strentgh, though Wyngaal and especially Ossir can even make an IMBA out of IMBA.
@ 7: Lvl 4 ? Nah, you forgot that Magi and Druids are spellcasters and have more a supportive function rather than engaging Ranged or Melee. Besides, Arcanes are defencively too weak for a lvl 4... but their growth needs to be decreased. (you can easily get up to 23 or more a week, with additional Dwellings (+1/dwelling), Caravans (+7/dwelling), a castle (+7) and Recruitement (TALANAR !; +1) Make the sum yourself: 14 + 8 per dwelling + 1, if you have a hero with recruitement in your garison (like Talanar))
Really dangerous.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Laue
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 05, 2008 10:27 PM |
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I'd switch them with unicorns (in tiers)
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winterfate
Supreme Hero
Water-marked Champion!
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posted July 05, 2008 10:34 PM |
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@Laue:  That sounds about right! 
As a fan of Wood Elves (I say this because I've liked them since HOMM2), I have to admit that their H5 incarnation is horribly IMBA when they're upgraded into Arcane Archers.
You never fully appreciate the power of the Arcane Archer until you shoot a unit with a lot of defense (most tier 7 units and Treants) and still manage to kill quite a few of them off. 
Also, they have an extra point of Initiative compared to Master Hunters, which is just cheap.
They need to nerf Force Arrow and give Master Hunters 11 initiative to make them a viable choice again.
This is how I'd nerf it:
Force Arrow - On a successful roll (the ability triggering), the unit is pushed back 1 square. In addition. that unit's Defense is lowered by 25% for purposes of damage calculation.
In other words, halve the defense reduction and only have it happen when the knockback triggers. You may have to increase the chance of it happening a bit more (knockback seems to rarely trigger for me), but that feels like a good way to balance them.
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If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted July 05, 2008 10:34 PM |
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That is even more insane: then you have a weak Lvl5 and an überIMBA lvl3. It's completely out !
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 06, 2008 12:17 AM |
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Did you notice just now? People have been complaining before TotE came out 
And yes master hunters are mostly obsolete.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted July 06, 2008 12:36 AM |
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Overpowered as they are, it's maybe the best we stay away from modding/nerfing Arcanes; I doubt they would become better...
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Atheist
Hired Hero
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posted July 06, 2008 12:39 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
also, master hunter has 2 chances for luck. in combination with Archers Dream a double lucky master hunter can deal
~3 times more damage then an arcane archer.
No. It's a double roll but also 1/2 of the effect. So in order to get as much damage from lucky strike as arcane archer, you have to succeed the roll check twice. Simple math. 2*8 = 16. 2*4+2*4 = 16. Same damage output.
The idea was NOT that a lucky master hunter deals more damage then a lucky arcane archer, but that the master hunter has a greater chance to be affected by luck. I admit not making this more clear in my first post. Double shot is essentially a kind of "soldier's luck" for the luck.
If you have 10% chance to trigger luck, you have greater chance to trigger luck with a hunter then with an arcane, so overall, they use the luck more often. ( 10% x 2 > 10% x 1 )
As somebody else said, same goes for Avenger Skill. They have 2 chances to deal more damage instead of just 1. This means that overall you'll trigger it more often. It's simple math, as you said.
These 2 chances overall mean that Master Hunter has the potential to deal much more damage then the Arcane Archer. ( if it triggers for hunter and not for Arcane. Hell. Luck + Avenger triggering at the same time mean x4 damage if I am correct. Of course, Arcane could trigger both 2 with devastating consequences, but i'm only saying that this is more likely with MH then AA.
I like numbers and your analasis is good about the defense thing but doesn't take into consideration these 2 facts that i've just outlined.
In the end.. it's a matter of strategy and tactics.. and of course, luck.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 06, 2008 09:37 AM |
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You got it wrong with the luck, friend. Luck scales. It doesn't matter whether you strike twice for lower amount of damage, or once for big.
Lets say master hunters and arcane archers face a creature of 23 def, or so, to make their attacks equal.
Master Hunter will deal around 49 points of damage per arrow, 98 total (Guessing. Don't have the time to count now )
Arcane Archer will do one shot of 98 damage.
Now, Master Hunter has, say, 50% chance of scoring of lucky hit, so after 20 shots, statistically half will be critical.
That means 10*49 + 10*49*2 points of damage, 1470 in total.
Arcane Archer with the same luck will do only half of those attacks, but also 50% will be criticals. So 5*98 + 5*98*2 = 1470.
See? If both creatures have same damage, it doesn't matter whether one of them attacks twice, thrice, or a milion times. As long as their total damage is equal, the luck bonus gives them exactly the same damage bonus. Same applies to avenger.
In other words, Arcane Archer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Master Hunter. The only moment where the latter are better is when you have unicorn horn bow early, against a foe that has lots of weak creatures AND his defense isn't high, like demonlord.
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Laue
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 06, 2008 09:50 AM |
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Quote:
That is even more insane: then you have a weak Lvl5 and an überIMBA lvl3. It's completely out !
And switching/editing stats too.
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7
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 06, 2008 10:16 AM |
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Quote:
@ 7: Lvl 4 ? Nah, you forgot that Magi and Druids are spellcasters and have more a supportive function rather than engaging Ranged or Melee. Besides, Arcanes are defencively too weak for a lvl 4... but their growth needs to be decreased. (you can easily get up to 23 or more a week, with additional Dwellings (+1/dwelling), Caravans (+7/dwelling), a castle (+7) and Recruitement (TALANAR !; +1) Make the sum yourself: 14 + 8 per dwelling + 1, if you have a hero with recruitement in your garison (like Talanar))
Really dangerous.
True, but I was focusing on the damage.If I had to pick between arcanes and other level fours I would shourly pick the archers.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 06, 2008 10:27 AM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 10:28, 06 Jul 2008.
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How come no one posted this here yet?
My thoughts exactly.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 06, 2008 10:39 AM |
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The most funny thing is that Arcane Archers, as powerful as they are, are not the most important unit in sylvan's army, and they won't win you a game The combined attack of Dragons, spirtes, corns and dancers will. Arcane Archers will just exterminate the leftovers
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Isabel
Known Hero
Dragonblessed
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posted July 06, 2008 03:10 PM |
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Though not as important as dragons, arcane archers are available much earlier and can help you to creep and fight rush
They are the most important in early game
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 06, 2008 03:15 PM |
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For the last time I will tell you people. Overpowered or IMBA does NOT mean that the unit is "the best" in the game (statistically, without taking cost into account). It simply means that it is better than any other alternative in the same class. Thus, if no one chooses Master Hunters, then it is obviously there is an imbalance somewhere.
Geesh by that logic we will all consider Black Dragons/Magma Dragons the best since they have the best stats, but they also cost a lot and are not truly "better" than other tier 7s.
A black dragon is NOT MORE OVERPOWERED than a peasant.
An arcane archer IS MORE OVERPOWERED than a master hunter.
See my logic?
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espen15
Famous Hero
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posted July 06, 2008 03:51 PM |
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It still depends of intiative and morale how deadly arcanes can be(no doubt that attack is good) and also defending them, if arcane archers controls hero wyngaal with intiative artifacts and expert leadership they can be unstoppable and only super intiative creatures like phoenix can harm them before they can attack.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 06, 2008 05:45 PM |
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Initiative is irrelevant, they are better than master hunters as if they were not already superior is every sense.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Atheist
Hired Hero
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posted July 08, 2008 10:56 AM |
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Edited by Atheist at 11:07, 08 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
Initiative is irrelevant, they are better than master hunters as if they were not already superior is every sense.
If AA is superior in every sense then MH , why do I have a screenshot that can prove how 12 MH without Unicorn Bow, dealt 191 damage and my 12 AA stack dealt only 139? With unicorn bow the gap would have been 382 damage MH vs 139 AA (more then double damage)(I have just made some small tests that prove my theory consistent.)
I will show how MH has the potential to deal greater damage vs high defense creatures also, as I had tested on Treants.
Hero is Ossir, i had 2 staks , one of MH, one of AA (same number, 19). Battling Treants.(28 defense, so MH should deal less damage according to Doomforge, even in full range) I don not have any damage boosters or modifyiers, etc. I had 5 luck to see if my theory stands.
Suprisingly, MH acts before AA ! ( this debunks the importance of 1 initiative, moreover , in my games, I've witnessed units with 10 init act before 12 init units. ( seems kinda buggy if u ask me, that ATB lottery)
As I did not have Unicorn Bow, of course at long range MH did less damage at first. (MH 98 damage with 1 lucky shot vs 135 damage AA.
However. I let treants get into full range to test if they indeed deal lower damage even without the range penalty. Results:
MH vs 28 defense damage 96 - 154 => 190 damage with 1 lucky hit.
AA vs 28 defens damage 126- 142 => 135 damage.
As you can see, MH can deal greater damage vs 28 defense even without luck ( his damage range is more unstable though). It's like a familiar vs vermin debate. Which one deals more damage? 2-3 or 1-4?
I would say, 1-4! It's more unreliable but most times it pays off.
Do not forget that MH deals 10-16 damage, and AA deals only 8-9.
Moreover, Master Hunter benefits more from the Battle Frenzy and from the Nature's Frenzy and from the Necklace of the Claw, as they have double effect on him. ( they all increase damage for each strike)
This makes possible for such numbers :
A stack of AA deals 273 - 334 damage
A stack of MH with b.frenzy and n.wrath deal 330 - 550.
As you can see in the example above, my Master Hunters had a damage range in which their minimum equaled the Arcane Archers maximum damage.
In the example above, my stacks were 19 of each , and I want you to understand the fact that for greater numbers of MH and AA, the gap could easily get to thousands of extra damage , and this not even considering that the Master Hunter is more lucky overall then the AA. ( a fact that Doomforge seems not to understand yet.)
This should debunk the false idea that AA is overpowerd unit. ( despite the fact that the game considers AA > MH ( i had the same nr of them and AA appeared in the Thieves Guild as the Best Stack. )
Listen, you all can believe all you want, for all I care.
My interventions here are for the purpose of making justice to the Master Hunter, a great unit, even when compared to the AA.
Remember that even if there are 50+ defense stacks in a battle, most of the times it is more logical to attack the lower defense ones, even with the AA. ( Attack where your enemy is weak! , said an old advice from Heroes 3 tavern, and it was a wise one).
Test it! Try it! You might be amazed to see the extra damage the Master Hunter is capable of. It could probably deal as much as 5 times more damage, even against 50+ defense. ( Best Case scenario, with double lucky, double avenging, full-ranged attacks)
Edit: I'd like to add something, just to be sure that there are no misunderstandings.
I always upgrade to AA if the conditions that make MH better are not met. These conditions are: Have unicorn Bow, Have at least 1 luck,
Can make use of Avenger in next important battle, Have at least 1 damage booster.Fortunately, these conditions are not very hard to accomplish except for the Bow. And if you're willing to risk a bit, the MH can pay off even without it.
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted July 08, 2008 11:14 AM |
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I have to snow about neutrals and say phoenix and death knight are the most IMBA.AAs are strong but not undefeatable.
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted July 08, 2008 12:23 PM |
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Quote:
Master Hunter is more lucky overall then the AA. ( a fact that Doomforge seems not to understand yet.)
this is so not true....
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