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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 08, 2008 12:31 PM |
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You can't use Unicorn Horn Bow as an argument when comparing them. That artifact eliminates one of the great advantages of AA, thus making the comparison meaningless. That's be the same as saying that Red Dragons are as good as Black Dragons if you have the Power Of Dragons set, which is obviously true, but not very meaningful in general games.
And Phoenix and Death Knights are imbalanced (particularly Death Knights are just plain stupid) but as they are neutrals, that's kinda unimportant.
Quote:
For the last time I will tell you people. Overpowered or IMBA does NOT mean that the unit is "the best" in the game (statistically, without taking cost into account). It simply means that it is better than any other alternative in the same class. Thus, if no one chooses Master Hunters, then it is obviously there is an imbalance somewhere.
Geesh by that logic we will all consider Black Dragons/Magma Dragons the best since they have the best stats, but they also cost a lot and are not truly "better" than other tier 7s.
A black dragon is NOT MORE OVERPOWERED than a peasant.
An arcane archer IS MORE OVERPOWERED than a master hunter.
See my logic?
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What will happen now?
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 08, 2008 12:36 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Master Hunter is more lucky overall then the AA. ( a fact that Doomforge seems not to understand yet.)
this is so not true....
They attack twice, so it will trigger more often. I saw alot more luck before i upgraded to arcanes.
But Arcanes are meant to kill the high tier units and golems.....
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted July 08, 2008 12:44 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Master Hunter is more lucky overall then the AA. ( a fact that Doomforge seems not to understand yet.)
this is so not true....
They attack twice, so it will trigger more often. I saw alot more luck before i upgraded to arcanes.
But Arcanes are meant to kill the high tier units and golems.....
MH will have double count of lucky shots, but each of them affects only half of damage, so one lucky shot from AA means that MH need to score two lucky shots in a row. it means that there is no more lucky unit.
that's math and nothing more.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 08, 2008 01:02 PM |
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Yes, consider both have 5 luck. That gives:
AA:
50 % chance for 200 % damage (good luck).
50 % chance for 100 % damage (no luck).
Average: 150 % damage.
MH:
25 % chance for 200 % damage (2 x good luck).
50 % chance for 150 % damage (1 x good luck).
25 % chance for 100 % damage (no luck).
Average: 150 % damage.
Notice, however, that Master Hunters will generally be more reliable in doing semi-high damage - or, in other words, the chance of doing "only" normal damage is low. However, the chance of doing maximum damage is equally low.
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What will happen now?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 08, 2008 01:46 PM |
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Quote:
( a fact that Doomforge seems not to understand yet.)
Oh Doomforge explained it very well, maybe you need to brush up on the math 
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted July 08, 2008 01:48 PM |
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silly me 
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 08, 2008 01:54 PM |
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Please if you can't understand math, at least do not twist Alcibiades' posts. Take the whole phrase:
Quote:
the chance of doing "only" normal damage is low. However, the chance of doing maximum damage is equally low.
It refers to the PREVIOUS PHRASE, for the "normal" damage of the Master Hunters.
That is, the Master Hunter may have a lower chance of not scoring a lucky shot at all, but it also has a lower chance (than the Arcane Archer) to score a FULL LUCKY SHOT (2 lucky shots)
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Atheist
Hired Hero
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posted July 08, 2008 01:59 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
( a fact that Doomforge seems not to understand yet.)
Oh Doomforge explained it very well, maybe you need to brush up on the math
So, this is the last-resort argument? I am stupid and don't know math? lol. You didn't even bother to adress any of my real arguments.
There was the same argument about Heroes 3 Grand Elf being overpowered and no matter how hard some were quick to point out their weaknesses, in the end it all ended up into flames.
You saying so does not make it true. I tested and showed my results and the gameplay clearly shows MH deal more then double damage in the right hands. The numbers confirm and advanced players know what I'm talking about, so I will rest my case.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 08, 2008 02:07 PM |
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At least my and Doomforge's FACTS are not based on "professional players" (which I hardly believe they agree with you).
If you can't understand math, let me spell it out in english:
Master Hunters have a LOWER chance to have a FULL LUCKY SHOT (2 lucky strikes) thus it's BAD (compared to Arcane Archers)
If you don't understand math, again, take a dice (6 sided). Calculate the probability to roll out a '6'. What is it? 1/6 since we have 6 sides.
Now, what is the probability to roll out a '6' TWO TIMES? I'll let you do the homework. Even common sense tells us it's much HARDER to roll out two 6s than one
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Atheist
Hired Hero
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posted July 08, 2008 02:15 PM |
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Quote:
stack of AA deals 273 - 334 damage
stack of MH with 330 - 550 damage
THIS.. is fact.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 08, 2008 02:21 PM |
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Quote:
THIS.. is fact.
No it is not, because they did not have range penalty.
YOU said:Quote:
Do not forget that MH deals 10-16 damage, and AA deals only 8-9.
That is without range penalty. You are confusing calculations. Master Hunters deal only 5-8 damage with range penalty, even if they do double-shot, that ONLY compensates for the RANGE PENALTY
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 08, 2008 02:28 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
stack of AA deals 273 - 334 damage
stack of MH with 330 - 550 damage
THIS.. is fact.
No. THIS is fact:
MH:
Att: 5
Def: 4
Dam: 5-8
HP: 14
Ini: 10
Special: Double damage when shooting
AA:
Att: 6
Def: 5
Dam: 8-9
HP: 14
Ini: 11
Special: Double damage when shooting from far range, ignore 50% enemy defense
So yeah, when shooting MH deals 10-16 damage, that is 13 average. AA deals 8.5 average.
13 divided by 8.5 = 1.529 (so MH deals 53% extra damage ONLY WHEN CLOSE RANGE, and WITHOUT TAKING THE 50% DEFENSE REDUCTION INTO CONSIDERATION)
So, if the 50% defense reduction makes the AA deal 50% more damage, it already is better than MH even with Unicorn Horn Bow (not to mention it has 11 initiative!)
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 08, 2008 02:45 PM |
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Quote:
So, if the 50% defense reduction makes the AA deal 50% more damage, it already is better than MH even with Unicorn Horn Bow (not to mention it has 11 initiative!)
It will depend on how much higher the AA attack is, how many % damage per 1 attack over 1 defense is it again?
The 50% increase is only if the difference in attack and defense is big enogh.
AA attacks a unit with (50/2=25) 25 defense, and got 20 attack.
In this case, the AA will only deal closer to its full damage.
If the AA attacks a unit and its attack now becomes superior, then its working like it was suppose to.
But the no range penalety seriusly is strong in creeping 
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted July 08, 2008 02:45 PM |
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Quote:
Please if you can't understand math, at least do not twist Alcibiades' posts. Take the whole phrase:
Quote:
the chance of doing "only" normal damage is low. However, the chance of doing maximum damage is equally low.
It refers to the PREVIOUS PHRASE, for the "normal" damage of the Master Hunters.
That is, the Master Hunter may have a lower chance of not scoring a lucky shot at all, but it also has a lower chance (than the Arcane Archer) to score a FULL LUCKY SHOT (2 lucky shots)
sorry my bad. got confused with semi-high damage and took it as one lucky shot.
and to close that stupid luck rant:
no matter how one is trying luck benefits both of them equally,
no matter if it's 30% 20% or 50% damage bonus in long run is always equals to chance to score lucky strike.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 08, 2008 03:00 PM |
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Quote:
how many % damage per 1 attack over 1 defense is it again?
It's 5%
So if AA's decrease more than 10 Defense (more practical: the target has above 20 Defense) it is better than MH even WITHOUT NO RANGE PENALTY!!! (that means, even if you have Unicorn Horn Bow with MHs!)
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ebbafan
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 08, 2008 04:52 PM |
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looks like there is a big controversy over damage between the two units...
however there are times where the master hunter's double attack could prove useful:
phantom forced unit - 2 chances to eliminate
warding arrows - 2 chances to trigger
killing a ghost stack(especially naadir's often strategically placed ghosts) - 2 chances
so AA's are not absolutely better than MH's
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 08, 2008 05:07 PM |
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Quote:
phantom forced unit - 2 chances to eliminate
warding arrows - 2 chances to trigger
I never thought about phantom forces before, so that might be the only advantage MHs have or AAs.
As for warding arrows, I think it's a bit weak ability in itself, compared to what the AA has
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 08, 2008 05:22 PM |
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Hmm yes MHs are better at destroying phantom forces, but they also do 25% damage on melee strikes, don't they? (at least the AA deals more raw damage than MH and thus the melee damage is better)
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ebbafan
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 08, 2008 05:43 PM |
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oh...one more side note, MH's can kill off creatures with last stand
this can come in handy if your opponent is using the cheesy 2 vampire/raise dead + last stand combo.
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7
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 08, 2008 06:59 PM |
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I prefer MHs with luck than AAs with luck.Imagine you have to do 4 battles against neutrals and your hero has 5 luck.In the first MHs score one hit-50% damage and the second hit with luck-100% damage.That makes 150% damage.In the second battle your MHs score 150% damage again.In the third your AAs get lucky and score 200% and then 100% damage in the fourth battle.It's not the same, but it's a matter of taste- you can score 150%damage per battle or score 200% every second battle.If you have too much AAs you may lose some damage in one of the battles but not do enough in the second. MHs are saver and more reliable.
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