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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted February 05, 2012 05:19 AM |
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Don't skeletal spearmen have the half range penalty? It sure seems like they don't do much.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted February 05, 2012 07:27 AM |
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Quote:
Don't skeletal spearmen have the half range penalty? It sure seems like they don't do much.
Only until you cast Storm Arrows on them or come in with Archery 3, but yes. And their spears cause movement penalties even when not upgraded despite the fact that the description implies that they don't.
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 05, 2012 10:56 AM |
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Quote:
Don't skeletal spearmen have the half range penalty? It sure seems like they don't do much.
My bad, I haven't played with Necro much and I didn't realize.
Nevertheless, on paper at least, Necro as a whole seems absurdly overpowered. Like some sort of inside joke that Black Hole had going. "Hey, wouldn't it be hilarious if the Necropolis was twice as powerful as every other faction?"
Bring back the weak-ass Bone Dragons. They were much cooler and far more balanced. I completely despise the Necro Champion.
Also, Lamasus? Really? What the hell is that snowe? Preferable to HoMM V Wraiths/ HoMM III Dread Knights? Not by a country mile.
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KaynaCrous
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 05, 2012 02:16 PM |
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On paper, they are quite OP. not sure about the normal game, since it takes too long to play one... but in duels, I know a few builds that beats necro players all the time...
They are extremely predictable.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 05, 2012 02:22 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Don't skeletal spearmen have the half range penalty? It sure seems like they don't do much.
My bad, I haven't played with Necro much and I didn't realize.
Nevertheless, on paper at least, Necro as a whole seems absurdly overpowered. Like some sort of inside joke that Black Hole had going. "Hey, wouldn't it be hilarious if the Necropolis was twice as powerful as every other faction?"
Bring back the weak-ass Bone Dragons. They were much cooler and far more balanced. I completely despise the Necro Champion.
Also, Lamasus? Really? What the hell is that snowe? Preferable to HoMM V Wraiths/ HoMM III Dread Knights? Not by a country mile.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Bone dragons and wraiths rather than spinners and lammasus change nothing in term of balance and only do a lot of cosmical damage in term of flavour.
Seriously, if you compare Warcraft, King's Bounty and HoMM you'll notice that none found some original idea about ANY of the pseudo-tolkienist fantasy tropes out there - shiny knights are just shiny knights, hippy elves are just hippy elves, brash dwarves are just brash dwarves, and so on.
For some reasons this is a lot less pronounced if I throw other fantasy series in, like Dragon Age or Elder Scrolls, prompting me to question if narrative conventions naturally favor strategy games.
When they try to re-invent things a bit like Warcraft tries to do with elves, I commend it. HoMM undead are arguably one of the strongest and deepest work in this sense, developing more and more with their own thing and distancing themselves more and more from the classic, overused trope. They now have their distinct look, philosophy, architecture, pool of creature and style.
I'd honestly hate to see them get back on this because it's one of the biggest assets Ubi produced. Arguably one of the few real improvements they gave to the series, which is saying a lot.
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KaynaCrous
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 05, 2012 03:47 PM |
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There are newbs, and there are turtling haven players.
Its simple.
If you do duels, and you play a might haven hero, and you arent intelligent enough to even create a working tactical formation with the griffons, because they re 2x2 units, its ok! Take the blazing glories instead. They still rock, even with a might hero.
Just put your marksmens in the corner, get reinforcments 1, inner fire and dispel magic. Dump everything else in passives.
The final step is to think you re so smart after winning, because it requires so much brain power to shoot with markmens and guarding with the rest.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 05, 2012 10:02 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Don't skeletal spearmen have the half range penalty? It sure seems like they don't do much.
My bad, I haven't played with Necro much and I didn't realize.
Nevertheless, on paper at least, Necro as a whole seems absurdly overpowered. Like some sort of inside joke that Black Hole had going. "Hey, wouldn't it be hilarious if the Necropolis was twice as powerful as every other faction?"
Bring back the weak-ass Bone Dragons. They were much cooler and far more balanced. I completely despise the Necro Champion.
Also, Lamasus? Really? What the hell is that snowe? Preferable to HoMM V Wraiths/ HoMM III Dread Knights? Not by a country mile.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Bone dragons and wraiths rather than spinners and lammasus change nothing in term of balance and only do a lot of cosmical damage in term of flavour.
Seriously, if you compare Warcraft, King's Bounty and HoMM you'll notice that none found some original idea about ANY of the pseudo-tolkienist fantasy tropes out there - shiny knights are just shiny knights, hippy elves are just hippy elves, brash dwarves are just brash dwarves, and so on.
For some reasons this is a lot less pronounced if I throw other fantasy series in, like Dragon Age or Elder Scrolls, prompting me to question if narrative conventions naturally favor strategy games.
When they try to re-invent things a bit like Warcraft tries to do with elves, I commend it. HoMM undead are arguably one of the strongest and deepest work in this sense, developing more and more with their own thing and distancing themselves more and more from the classic, overused trope. They now have their distinct look, philosophy, architecture, pool of creature and style.
I'd honestly hate to see them get back on this because it's one of the biggest assets Ubi produced. Arguably one of the few real improvements they gave to the series, which is saying a lot.
I think the Lamasu is a good concept, it's fresh, and it looks good. Sure, they might stink in game, but that's another story (and I guess that means that their Putrid name fits them, but I don't think they're LAME-asu  ).
The Fate-Weavers? I was sceptical when I saw the first artwork, and when I saw them shooting green lasers out of their stomach they lost me completely. That IS a lame concept, giving the ranged attack both is horrible for their balance and doesn't fit the concept AT ALL - and from what I hear, it's not like Necro lacks ranged power.
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What will happen now?
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 05, 2012 10:26 PM |
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Quote:
I wholeheartedly disagree. Bone dragons and wraiths rather than spinners and lammasus change nothing in term of balance and only do a lot of cosmical damage in term of flavour.
As far as "balance" is concerned, it obviously depends on the stats that would be given to the Bone Dragons/Wraiths. In the past HoMM games, one of the elements that has served to balance the ridiculously powerful resurrection capabilities of the Necro faction was an underpowered Champion unit (Bone Dragons were among the weaker level 7's in Heroes 3 and 5; they were a bit stronger in 4, but they still weren't the best).
As far as "cosmical" (cosmetic?) damage goes, that is simply a difference in aesthetic preference. If you find Spinners and Lamasus more intriguing or cool than Bone Dragons and Wraiths, that's fair enough. My suspicion is that the vast majority of HoMM fans disagree with you, but I could be wrong.
Quote:
Seriously, if you compare Warcraft, King's Bounty and HoMM you'll notice that none found some original idea about ANY of the pseudo-tolkienist fantasy tropes out there - shiny knights are just shiny knights, hippy elves are just hippy elves, brash dwarves are just brash dwarves, and so on.
This is quite a strange comment in the context of Wraiths and Bone Dragons, neither of which, to the best of my knowledge, could be accurately characterized as "pseudo-Tolkienist." Wraiths and their associated lore (and the influence behind both of their different art styles in HoMM III and V) predate Tolkien by centuries. And nothing like Bone Dragons, as far as I know, are anywhere to be found in Tolkien.
And I find the comparison of the HoMM series to Warcraft in terms of "fantasy un-originality" a bit unfair. I think that HoMM has developed a much more original flavor and "style" over the course of its games than the Warcraft series (no offense to fans of the latter, of course).
In any case, to address your comment further would entail launching into a "philosophical" discussion about the desirability of deviation vs. conformity with respect to well-developed fantasy tropes in our fantasy games/movies. That would be even more off-topic than this already is, so I will simply say that I think a lot of fans really enjoy seeing the familiar "fantasy" faces that they have come to know and love from so many different sources.
Quote:
When they try to re-invent things a bit like Warcraft tries to do with elves, I commend it. HoMM undead are arguably one of the strongest and deepest work in this sense, developing more and more with their own thing and distancing themselves more and more from the classic, overused trope. They now have their distinct look, philosophy, architecture, pool of creature and style.
As of MMH6? They still borrow many creatures from what you call "classic, overused tropes (Vampires, Skeletons, etc.), and the HoMM art style has always been distinct. Here also, in fact, I would suspect that in terms of aesthetics, MMH6 (whether we're just talking about the Necropolis or the rest of the game) is far from the preferred HoMM.
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 05, 2012 10:41 PM |
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Quote:
There are newbs, and there are turtling haven players.
Its simple.
If you do duels, and you play a might haven hero, and you arent intelligent enough to even create a working tactical formation with the griffons, because they re 2x2 units, its ok! Take the blazing glories instead. They still rock, even with a might hero.
Just put your marksmens in the corner, get reinforcments 1, inner fire and dispel magic. Dump everything else in passives.
The final step is to think you re so smart after winning, because it requires so much brain power to shoot with markmens and guarding with the rest.
This might interest you (it was on Celestial Heavens). It's a battle between Ubisoft Samantha ("M&M World Continuity Manager") playing as Haven and a fan playing as Inferno. Neither one is terribly good, but the result is worth a laugh.
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KaynaCrous
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 06, 2012 02:14 AM |
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That haven isnt using tactics. Haven not using tactics is cake.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 06, 2012 03:24 AM |
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@alcibiates:
Well, game mechanics are a different thing entirely. Yes, the lammasu could use some power up; and yes, OH YESSSS, the weaver having ranged attack is wrong both in flavor and gameplay fo a variety of reasons. Point is, the fact they designed new units is commendable.
@seingeist:
Yes, we're kind of going off topic so I'll try one last time to explain my viewpoint.
Bonedragons aren't in Tolkien, nor are dwarven engineers or angels fighting alongside knights for that matter. The point still stands, western fantasy evolved very little since Tolkien and almost always did so while revolving around tolkienist concepts. Humans fight with valor; dwarves build things; elves live in woods; there are menacing, demonic entities usually bounded with fire and dark; and so on. Even when it evolves beyond strict tolkienism, it still usually build new tropes. Take the bonedragon, I don't know who invented it first but it's a classic now; HoMM has it, King's Bounty has it, Warcraft has it, Elder Scrolls has it... the list goes on. It is a legitimate way to develop fantasy, even if completely different from the also likeable eastern take on fantasy.
What I was trying to say is that it's nice to see the designers weren't lazy and tried to reinvent some of these tropes a bit. I like having egyptian undeads, arabian wizards or a far-east underwater kingdom, things that I haven't necessarily already seen elsewhere. I think they add value to the game rather than detracting it.
Essentially -especially with the big mess this game's gameplay is- flavor and lore are aspects where I'd say Ubi made actually quite a good job and definitely the lastest of things I'd suggest them to scrap.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted February 06, 2012 05:41 AM |
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As far as concept is concerned I prefer lamasu's to the wraiths by a long shot. The fact that they suck is part of the balance, Necro are supposed to have snowy units. Nerf liches hp, vampire damage and growth, and ghouls hp or damage and I think that necro would be a very reasonable faction.
____________
I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 06, 2012 06:03 AM |
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Quote:
As far as concept is concerned I prefer lamasu's to the wraiths by a long shot.
But...what about those huge sickles? And the awesome sound effect that accompanied them swinging through the air...
These weirdo poisonous sphinxes are such poor consolation.
Quote:
The fact that they suck is part of the balance, Necro are supposed to have snowy units. Nerf liches hp, vampire damage and growth, and ghouls hp or damage and I think that necro would be a very reasonable faction.
You'll find no argument here on that one. They need a good creature-nerfing across the board. I would add Lich and Fate Spinner ranged damage to your nerf-list as well, and possibly ghoul movement (they replace Zombies, which were always extremely slow). And Vampire HP, while we're at it.
In previous games, they didn't have more than one or two creatures that were really excellent (stat and ability wise). In MMH6, only one or two of them aren't excellent. Combined with their immunities and resurrection capabilities, it's just WAY too much.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted February 06, 2012 07:17 AM |
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Quote:
The Fate-Weavers? I was sceptical when I saw the first artwork, and when I saw them shooting green lasers out of their stomach they lost me completely.
Yes me too, I pictured the spiders to have high initiative and speed of 8 plus and high damage and web their enemies so they cannot move (like the treants entangled roots)...wsa a scary thought.....then the green lazers, and I thought...nah not too scary anymore!
They really should have made the human form the shooter and the spider form the melee walker....
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 06, 2012 07:45 PM |
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Quote:
In previous games, they didn't have more than one or two creatures that were really excellent (stat and ability wise).
legions of skeletons, vampires, liches, dread knights... in another hand the 3 remaining creatures sucked very much.
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted February 06, 2012 08:37 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
In previous games, they didn't have more than one or two creatures that were really excellent (stat and ability wise).
legions of skeletons, vampires, liches, dread knights... in another hand the 3 remaining creatures sucked very much.
Stat-wise, Skeletons were mediocre at best. Vampire Lords and Dread Knights were awesome sauce. Power Liches were upper end for a level 5 unit, but nothing worth building a strategy around. Zombies, Ghost Dragons, and Wraiths were all bad for their tier. Zombies and Wraiths were bad enough to be just plain bad.
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 06, 2012 11:00 PM |
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Quote:
Stat-wise, Skeletons were mediocre at best. Vampire Lords and Dread Knights were awesome sauce. Power Liches were upper end for a level 5 unit, but nothing worth building a strategy around. Zombies, Ghost Dragons, and Wraiths were all bad for their tier. Zombies and Wraiths were bad enough to be just plain bad.
Nailed it right on the head, 100%.
The Dread Knights and Vampire Lords were extremely powerful, near the top of their tiers. The Liches were good, but not amazing (there were better tier-5 units). The rest were nearer the bottom of their respective tiers, as they should have been.
HoMM V was somewhat similar. The Liches and the Wraiths were very powerful for their tiers, but the rest of the units were mediocre at best and in some cases nearer the bottom.
Suddenly, MMH6 comes along and turns that on its head, buffing up most of the Necro units and only leaving one or two of them less than stellar.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 07, 2012 01:02 AM |
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the wraiths, very powerful? what should we say about paladins or kshatriyas then? godlike?
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 07, 2012 02:04 AM |
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Quote:
the wraiths, very powerful? what should we say about paladins or kshatriyas then? godlike?
?
Wraiths have the best attack/def/damage combo of all the level 6's. I thought that might fairly allow them to be called "very powerful." *shrug*
The Paladins only best them on movement (and barely on initiative), and have more useful specials. They are definitely more powerful as a result, I won't argue that, but it isn't the difference between "powerful" and "godlike."
Similarly, the Rakshasa Rajas have better specials and HP, but are lower in every other stat (tied in movement). Probably a better unit on the whole, but not a massive power difference.
And Harm Touch is too situational, but it is extremely useful if you have a small number of Wraiths and are facing opposing level 6's or 7's.
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KaynaCrous
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 07, 2012 04:27 AM |
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Undeads in Homm 6 may be strong on paper, but they re not that hard to beat in pratice.
Against a undead might hero :
Do wait and attack at the end of the first round instead, using your initiative and movement bonus, if its a good idea to do. Otherwise, simply send in your biggest units up front, and your core melee units at the end.
Retreat your units that are close to die, with the hero attack debuff, out of reach.
Suicide any units that are close to death, but without the hero attack debuff. Make em take a counter attack.
Dont be scared if he turns his fate weavers in shooter mode... no real need to prevent em from shooting.
Against a undead magic hero :
Get petrification and time stasis spells, if you can.
Get haste mass and, or inner fire mass if you re a might hero
Get dispell and aoe dispell magic to remove his petrification
Find the front unit you can beat easily, focus fire him, and place a melee unit next to his shotter, or shotters, as soon as possible. TO do that in the first round, before letting him cast his first spell, you need cleave and the perfect tactics 2 positionning + inner fire mass or haste mass mentionned above.
Necropolis is rotten cake compared to haven.
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