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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted January 31, 2012 09:12 PM |
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I have an idea, albeit weird. What if inferno is given a new role: location control.
The Cerebri, Juggernauts, Tormenters all have AoE already. Compare the damage that a Tormenter would do if he was surrounded by every enemy unit in a circle, vs if there is only one stack next to him. It's huge. What if we have the maniac an ability where when he whips an enemy unit they run away a bit, allowing you to push enemies around, and give juggernauts or Pitlords a fear or pushing ability as well. Combined with enthrall inferno suddenly has a strategy and synergy where by you push the enemy around to maximize the damage done by your AoE units, and allow you break turtle formations, pushing aside Lamasu and Praetorians to get at their precious shooters.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 31, 2012 09:35 PM |
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Quote:
So the main problem is, that the unit makes no sense because it has no guard against anything and the ratio of a whole stack of them between Hit Points and Damage is wrong for this game. That makes them a pretty easy and obvious target.
What do you mean when you say that the ratio of HP and Damage is wrong for them in this game? Are you saying that their damage is too high (too much aggro) or too low (to make up for weak survivability)? I assume the latter, because I doubt that you are suggesting that they are too damaging. However, their HP, while not stellar, is not crazy low either. Look at the defensive stats of the Hell Hounds (and their damage) next to all of the other melee cores:
Sent/Prae:
2-3/3-4 Dam
23/32 HP
7/10 D
4/5 MD
Sis/Vest:
5-7/5-7 (L)
19/25
3/4
8/10
Man/Dem:
3-6/4-8
23/28
7/9
4/5
HH/Cerb
5-8/5-10
22/28
5/6
7/8
Ghoul/RG
5-7/6-8
25/32
6/8
2/2
Ghost/Sp
3-7/5-7 (D)
21/27
5/6
6/7
SG/Wani
2-5/3-7
25/31
5/7
3/3
Kappa/KS
3-4/4-6
21/25
6/6
6/9
Maul/Cr
4-8/4-8
30/36
4/5
3/3
Harp/Fur
4-5/5-8
29/33
3/4
1/2
The dogs have the highest max and average damage of the cores (and the highest range, so they are an amazing candidate for Flawless Assault), and are basically tied with Ghosts at the bottom of the HP pool (higher than Sisters though, for good reason), and their Def/MD stats are solidly in the middle, with higher than average MD (compare to the Stronghold units, for example).
The reason that the dogs get slaughtered wholesale is not because they are too weak; it is because their damage potential causes the enemy to target them with everything they've got until they are all but eliminated. Virtually all of the other cores (excepting those retarded Praetorians) would also get slaughtered in no time if they were targeted with such priority. Buffing the defensive stats of the dogs would end up making them OP.
Their growth, however, is tied with Mauler for the lowest of the cores, and that's inexplicable and ridiculous. The inferno should get at least 1-2 more per week.
On a side note, the Ravenous Ghoul stands out for being stupidly powerful. Outstanding damage, excellent might defense, excellent HP, and excellent movement with its special ability (and to add insult to injury, you get one more of them per week than you do dogs). Another OP point in Necro's favor.
Quote:
I acknowledge that they aren't very good, but they are still the best thing the faction has. Maniacs are fairly terrible considering that they take tremendous losses actually doing anything (they are a slow-grind unit in a faction with no particular way to take advantage of a long battle), and every single unit in their elite tier is garbage. Hell Hounds at least have one useful thing they can do.
This seems a bit overstated. Both on paper and in play, I find the Maniacs/Dementeds to be reasonably decent units. Their damage and defense are both very good and you get a decent number of them per week.
The "elite tier is garbage" is also puzzling in its extremity. Yeah, the breeders are the most useless unit in the game (at least at the moment), and everyone knows it. The Lacerators, however, are very good, and exploding spikes is a truly formidable ability (damage boost, AoE, no retaliation). And the Ravagers are fairly well-rounded and have good movement and initiative; I'd call them "average" at worst, though their special ability does need some tweaking (see below).
Quote:
I have an idea, albeit weird. What if inferno is given a new role: location control.
The Cerebri, Juggernauts, Tormenters all have AoE already. Compare the damage that a Tormenter would do if he was surrounded by every enemy unit in a circle, vs if there is only one stack next to him. It's huge. What if we have the maniac an ability where when he whips an enemy unit they run away a bit, allowing you to push enemies around, and give juggernauts or Pitlords a fear or pushing ability as well. Combined with enthrall inferno suddenly has a strategy and synergy where by you push the enemy around to maximize the damage done by your AoE units, and allow you break turtle formations, pushing aside Lamasu and Praetorians to get at their precious shooters.
I actually love this idea. This would be especially useful for the Juggernauts; some knockback makes PERFECT sense for their special ability. The Maniacs could also have a fear effect similar to the Nightmares in Heroes 4/5. Hell, you could be really nasty and give the Pit Lords some kind of teleport enemy ability (after all, teleporting has long been a key theme of the Inferno) to help Inferno out a bit late-game.
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 31, 2012 10:12 PM |
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Quote:
Except that what I'm talking about is the performance of the dogs outside the campaign where it really matters. Nobody cares how strong or weak is some creature on a custom SP map that can be designed to compensate for its weaknesses or strengths. The AI is no measurement of the creature's performance either. If they are useless against a human opponent, they are useless altogether, simple as that.
I disagree completely. No simultaneous turns combined with the incredibly time consuming gameplay combined with the complete lack of resource strategy combined with the total lack of balance means that the game is pointless to play against other people. How the Cerberus behaves in a battle with AI is the only thing that matters. Even in a head to head game that you're playing because you're some kind of masochist, you'll have 99 battles against AI neutrals during creeping and one main climactic battle with all of your stuff against all of the stuff of the other player. So even in that limited context, how the units behave in AI battles is of primary importance.
As is, in matchups against other players, Arachne is still broken, so Hell Hounds Lifedrain at 1250%. So the entire stack heals to full every time they attack. Unlimited Retaliation is therefore ideal for them, because the only way to take down core units is with archery or by ganging up to run them out of retaliation.
But them's the breaks. Heroes VI multiplayer is stupid and not worth playing.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 31, 2012 11:20 PM |
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You seem to have no idea what "balance" means then. SP doesn't need balance, in fact in most cases it's good the SP to be imbalanced so the player can have some challenge to deal with. The MP is something completely different and for some reason I'm under the impression that the topics like this one are supposed to help for the improvement of the multi-player. So if you admit that this is beyond your concerns, we have nothing more to talk about.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 12:01 AM |
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I love the idea of giving Maniacs an active fear ability and maybe replace the Pit Lord's active with a teleportation ability. It would certainly make Inferno a lot more fun to play.
Maniacs get a Fear ability.
Hellhounds damage is reduced, but they gain some survivability and no enemy retaliation.
Breeders get No Melee Penalty.
Pit Lords get "Warp", allowing them to teleport an enemy or allied creature to a selected location on the battlefield.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 01:41 AM |
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Quote:
Pit Lords get "Warp", allowing them to teleport an enemy or allied creature to a selected location on the battlefield.
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I like it.
You could teleport your Lacerators directly into the enemy lines and treat them to some round 1 exploding spikes!
Or wipe the smug grins off the faces of those pesky Liches or Marksmen by pulling them directly in front of your hungry hounds.
It fits the Inferno concept nicely and would give them a much-needed tactical buff.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted February 01, 2012 07:07 AM |
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Pit Lords getting "warp" a big 
Keep dogs with unlimited retaliation (works well with life drain) (just keep em for end battle  )
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 09:14 AM |
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It can't be so difficult to understand, right?
Compare things with eralier HoMM games: then, first attack might have decisive effects; that meant, a fast, lightly armoured devastating attacker would make sense.
However, in HoMM 6, units do a lot less damage due to game mechanics and general HP/damage ratio. That means, a unit like Sanctaury's Priestesses make sense: vulnerable, high damage output, but RANGED (can be protected against melee).
The general flaw of the Cerberus is the fact that it is good with everything, but doesn't excel, and there is no special protection:
1) Speed 7 is good - but not enough. You cannot reach the opposition without Hero's help of at least Tactics 2 (as a passive), but then you will have to be lucky with placement. 7 is good, but not COMPELLINGLY so.
2) Init 40, that is good again - but only for a Core unit; still Priestesses are better (and Maidens and Centaurs)
3) Damage is good again - but numbers lack: Once upgraded, you'll produce 8, 9, 10 or 11 of them. let's say 10. Praetorians will be 17 at the same time. And while 10 dogs will to 50-100 damage and have chances to double or even triple that, 17 Praetorians will do 51-68 damage, but supply nearly double as many HPs
4) Defense is good as well - for a core, that is. But HPs AIN'T. AND there is no special protection against any kind of attack
Now, whether the unit has unlimited retaliation or no enemy retaliation - both doesn't make it better, since it does nothing for survivability. It doesn't matter at all, that the hero may do all sorts of things to increase survivability - it costs actions to do so. Generally you might say, that in a real battle, the effort to be put into the dogs is just not worth the result, because they NEITHER do enough damage (lack numbers), NOR have enough survivability to survive on their own.
So IF the unit had a much more fitting number of HPs like, for example, 18 instead of 28, but didn't come with 5+3 units, but instead with 8+5, and got a reduced damage of 4-9, you had 15 units instead of 10, only 270 HPs instead of 280, but 60-135 damage. There would still be no survivability, but much more damage potential, and if you would give them speed EIGHT now, they would be a threat indeed.
However, that would make them a natural target for everyone, and due to the fact that they were so light, you could easily hurt them into meaninglessness fast.
So I repeat, that light, fast high-damage core melee attackers are the worst possible unit in this game, especially when they cannot accomplish anything without hero help. A unit like the Praetorians will just soak their damage up, reducing them enough in the process to make them worthless.
It's fairly easy: The dogs have too many attributes that are better than necessary, but not good enough to make a real difference, and everything at the expense of NUMBERS. The only thing that can make a difference with the dogs, is tweaking their stats to give them more units, at least TWO more units.
Crushers can stand the few numbers due to their characteristics - especially in combination with the rest of the Stronghold army and their high Init and Speed advantages (First Blood, Earth and Sky, Racial). Cerberi canNOT.
I mean, under a Might Hero, the Centaurs damage an opponent, and suddenly Crushers have speed 8 AND do 10% more damage. So that means, even though Crushers have only speed 6 and do 4-8 damage, they have actually speed 8 and do 4.4-8.8; TWICE. damage, while Cerberi have 40 Init and Crushers still only 30, but they can reach you, no matter what, while you need Tactics 2 for that; On the other hand, facing a MAGIC Stronghold hero, while the Crushers now have speed 7 and Init 35 in turn 1, Cerberi have suddenly Speed 6 and Init 35 as well.
So Cerberi simply need MORE CREATURES, first and foremost.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted February 01, 2012 11:08 AM |
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Quote:
So Cerberi simply need MORE CREATURES, first and foremost.
Back to my point, leave them off the battlefield until final / important battles
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 12:15 PM |
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No. I didn't say they lose too many units on the way to last battle, because they don't.
They are not enough in numbers, no matter their losses along the way. As a stack they just don't have enough... mass or special protection to keep them alive, and since they are too few in numbers they don't do enough damage either.
I mean, with a view on Inferno's racial, a light unit is completely nonsensical, since the gated unit disappears when the original unit perishes, even if there are skills that link part of the suffered damage to the gated stack.
Think about it: ALL factions can make use of their full racial potential every round. With Inferno, however, it takes at least as many turns as your army has stacks to do it, and there is the Gating delay.
That means, it doesn't make any sense at all to immediately go for the enemy's throat, which in turn means, light and fast units are completely silly for Inferno anyway.
Take a step back and look at the dogs and the fact they are 4 squares. It would be WAY better, if they had only 3-7 damage, Init 30, speed 5 or 6, would produce 7+4 and had 35 or so HPs (and all abilities they currently have). WAY WAY WAY better. In every respect. For army synergy. For racial. For durability. For everything. Note further, that you had a perfect Core turtle, which means, Succubi wouldn't need to have the insane-for-a-shooter speed 6, which makes no sense within an army, or the payback-of-melee-damage nonsense, but instead one more creature or more HPs or whatever.
But I don't want to be greedy or unrealistic. It's maybe a bit foolish to expect an Inferno faction with creatures making sense other than as single fighters; but what has been offered here is just not good enough to make up for a racial that has nothing to do with single-fighter quality.
If you had wanted that you would have to make the racial work like the Reinforcement skill with creatures staying in the army up to the numbers the stack had at start.
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 02:00 PM |
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Quote:
It can't be so difficult to understand, right?
[...]
I don't know why you continually assist on adopting this tone; it is completely unnecessary.
Your original statement was not unambiguous and I was simply hoping that you might elaborate, which you have now done in a very satisfying fashion.
It would have been even moreso if you didn't feel the need to talk down as though dealing with unnaturally slow children. The sooner you break that tedious habit, the more fruitful that such discussions as this become.
The comparison to the growth of Praetorians is a very good one. 8 cerberi to 15 Praetorians is so outrageously absurd that it is almost impossible to decide what the developers could have been thinking.
Your stack of 8 dogs has only 224 HP and does 40-80 damage. The 15 Praetorians have 480 HP, significantly higher might defense, and do 45-60 damage.
The base stack of Praetorians has over 100% more HP, significantly more might defense, but only 12.5% less average damage. Moreover, the gap in that average damage is only going to shrink over the course of the battle because the 15 Praetorians will take casualties at a much lower rate than the dogs on account of their higher HP and defense.
So yes, JJ, I think that you have made the centrality of the growth problem very clear. I think that at least 2 more dogs/week is a very good call, with slightly buffed HP and slightly lowered movement and magic defense.
I would hate to see their damage lowered, though, because that's one of the few positive distinctions that the unit can boast. I wouldn't want them to be transformed from glass cannon into turtle, as that does too much violence to the original concept. The problem, considering the growth, is that the glass cannon is still a bit too much on the "glassy" side, so to speak. 
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted February 01, 2012 02:06 PM |
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Hobo2,
I've played the Inferno campaign, and all campaigns for that matter, and I have to completely disagree with you. I'd MUCH rather have no retaliation on the core hounds than unlimited retaliation.
Also, I find it humorous when other people try and tell me that the Core Hounds are fine. Its not even close, those creatures are the worst in the game.
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 02:14 PM |
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Quote:
Also, I find it humorous when other people try and tell me that the Core Hounds are fine. Its not even close, those creatures are the worst in the game.
Not by a long shot.
There need to be more of them per week, and perhaps a few stats balanced in favor of HP, given that they are clearly meant to be frontline units.
But "worst in the game," they are not. As it stands, that distinction probably goes to those irrelevant Breeders.
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 02:34 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Also, I find it humorous when other people try and tell me that the Core Hounds are fine. Its not even close, those creatures are the worst in the game.
Not by a long shot.
There need to be more of them per week, and perhaps a few stats balanced in favor of HP, given that they are clearly meant to be frontline units.
But "worst in the game," they are not. As it stands, that distinction probably goes to those irrelevant Breeders.
I'd actually much rather have Breeders than Tormentors. The Breeders do anemic damage, but are reasonably low priority targets and rarely take more casualties than their own Proliferation ability can soak. They do ranged damage and give you insignificant amounts of mana back in battles against enemy heroes. That is strictly better than not having them.
Tormentors, meanwhile, take casualties if you use them at all. They are a melee unit whose special ability only works if an enemy begins the round adjacent to them - meaning that they just got attacked over the previous round in all likelihood.
The game is about fighting and not taking losses. Hell Hounds, Breeders, and even Ravagers have abilities that help with that. Tormentors don't. They are a decent enough thing to have in the final battle, but for every battle up to that point they serve the same purpose as maniacs: to be kept whimpering in the corner so that the total army size will be larger and Reinforcements and Gate will give more troops.
Breeders help while creeping. Not as much as they should, and they are embarrassingly terrible. But Tormentors don't even do that. They are just crap all the way down.
The Inferno's big problem is that they don't have enough healing. Therefore any unit whose claim to fame is "pretty good at boxing" is a terrible unit. Maniacs and Tormentors offer nothing to the inferno from a tactical standpoint. In either case, you'd take less losses by ditching the stack entirely and splitting your Lilim.
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 02:52 PM |
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Quote:
I'd actually much rather have Breeders than Tormentors. The Breeders do anemic damage, but are reasonably low priority targets and rarely take more casualties than their own Proliferation ability can soak. They do ranged damage and give you insignificant amounts of mana back in battles against enemy heroes. That is strictly better than not having them.
Tormentors, meanwhile, take casualties if you use them at all. They are a melee unit whose special ability only works if an enemy begins the round adjacent to them - meaning that they just got attacked over the previous round in all likelihood.
The game is about fighting and not taking losses. Hell Hounds, Breeders, and even Ravagers have abilities that help with that. Tormentors don't. They are a decent enough thing to have in the final battle, but for every battle up to that point they serve the same purpose as maniacs: to be kept whimpering in the corner so that the total army size will be larger and Reinforcements and Gate will give more troops.
Breeders help while creeping. Not as much as they should, and they are embarrassingly terrible. But Tormentors don't even do that. They are just crap all the way down.
The Inferno's big problem is that they don't have enough healing. Therefore any unit whose claim to fame is "pretty good at boxing" is a terrible unit. Maniacs and Tormentors offer nothing to the inferno from a tactical standpoint. In either case, you'd take less losses by ditching the stack entirely and splitting your Lilim.
Hmm.
It depends how they're used. Tormentors/Lacerators have decent initiative, which actually does give the player a few tactical options.
I use them a lot while creeping and take almost no losses. My favorite play is to wait the first turn, allow the stacks of the enemy to advance (4-square stacks are ideal), move my Lacerators among them at the end of the first turn, and blow off the exploding spikes at the beginning of the second. It provides some of the best damage output of any unit. Often, since most of the Inferno units have good initiative, I can nearly finish off the weakened enemy stacks before they get a chance to (meaningfully) attack the Lacerators.
Their special ability also works beautifully with gating, for obvious reasons. Gate a stack next to an enemy archer and turtle and spike as soon as they appear! Makes for a lovely inferno greeting.
Additionally, while the Lacerators seem to have "aggro" priority after the dogs, the AI will occasionally go for Dementeds or Juggernauts instead if I have them in range.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 02:56 PM |
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Seingeist, that comment was not specifically directed to any one single person here, but more a consequence of following the dicussion about whether no retaliation or unlimited retaliation would be better or not, since this is rather secondary.
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 03:07 PM |
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Quote:
Seingeist, that comment was not specifically directed to any one single person here, but more a consequence of following the dicussion about whether no retaliation or unlimited retaliation would be better or not, since this is rather secondary.
Fair enough, and we are completely agreed on that score.
Even the Life Drain/Flawless Assault combo on the dogs only aids their survivability if you have a large enough stack of dogs to soak up a hit or two and do enough retaliation damage to restore the losses; this brings us right back to the growth problem.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 01, 2012 11:04 PM |
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The No Retaliation vs. Unlimited Retaliation thing was all about which ability will help the Hell Hounds/Cerberi do their job better as they are now, of course it's not sufficient to just make the substitution and forget about their other flaws. No Retaliation however will help the dogs achieve two things which they currently can't do: they'll become twice better creeping creatures because their first attack will reduce the strength of the attacked stack without exposing them to unbearable retaliation (you can still cast Regeneration, Reinforcements and Drain Life and as far as the creeping is concerned - they'll be just as effective as before); they'll be able to deal more damage in big battles before they are disposed of. A creature with No Retaliation can attack virtually unlimited amount of times unlike a creature which can be retaliated against - the latter will be killed, in the best scenario for it, by the X-th enemy retaliation. Hence a damage-dealer which the Hell Hound/Cerberus supposedly is has to be supplied with the tools to deal damage and No Retaliation is one such tool. Unlimited Retaliations is like Fire Shield - it relies on the opponent to be effective (except that Fire Shield is much less dependent on the stack's durability and is hence more powerful in this regard). So the current configuration makes zero sense.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted February 01, 2012 11:35 PM |
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Edited by Miru at 23:37, 01 Feb 2012.
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Quote:
Quote:
Except that what I'm talking about is the performance of the dogs outside the campaign where it really matters. Nobody cares how strong or weak is some creature on a custom SP map that can be designed to compensate for its weaknesses or strengths. The AI is no measurement of the creature's performance either. If they are useless against a human opponent, they are useless altogether, simple as that.
I disagree completely. No simultaneous turns combined with the incredibly time consuming gameplay combined with the complete lack of resource strategy combined with the total lack of balance means that the game is pointless to play against other people. How the Cerberus behaves in a battle with AI is the only thing that matters.
Simultaneous turns can (and hopefully will be) added, HoMM6 has the best resource strategy of any HoMM yet, and saying balance is circular reasoning. We shouldn't balance units for multiplayer, because multiplayer sucks, because the units aren't balanced for multiplayer, because we haven't bothered to balance them for multiplayer, because multiplayer sucks, because the units... What the hell? I really want HoMM6 to be balanced because it would make for possibly the best strategy competitive game, little micro, little memorization, little luck, almost entirely strategy. I would love for HoMM6 to have viable competitive multiplayer.
Also I have refined my proposal of pushing + AoE/shooter hunting with some options:
Maniacs have a fear ability on strike
Maniacs have a fear ability with cooldown + some extra effect (like reduced defense)
Maniacs have a hook ability to pull other small stacks to themselves
Maniacs have an ability to hold enemy units to them via taunt or chains possibly
Substantially nerf enthrall, and then give it a cooldown to recast
Return the breeder minion attack, with the intention of allowing the minions to get in the way and block enemy movement.
Juggernauts have a chance to knockback (like HoMM5 dwarve bears)
Juggernauts charge has knockback
Pitlords have their burn everyone ability replaced with:
Place lava pools on map
Do a vortex attack which pulls enemies towards a point
Fear/knockback on strike
Fear/knockback AoE with cooldown
Also possibly give some units chance to fear/knockback on strike.
Add any two of these and inferno has synergy, add three and I think inferno would be the most tactical race.
____________
I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 11:50 PM |
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Quote:
A creature with No Retaliation can attack virtually unlimited amount of times unlike a creature which can be retaliated against - the latter will be killed, in the best scenario for it, by the X-th enemy retaliation.
There was a lot that seemed a little strange about your post, but let's take this for starters.
The Dogs with No Retaliation emphatically cannot "attack a virtually unlimited amount of times," because once you charge them up to the enemy lines, they will be targeted by every stack and end up dead or crippled after a turn or two. At least with Life Drain and Unlimited Retaliation, they have a better shot at surviving (if the stack is large enough to start with, which is one of the reasons that the growth is so key). Unlimited Retaliation seems like one of the best abilities that you could put on a unit that pulls the most aggro. However, the obvious problem is that the ability needs the unit to soak up hits to be effective, which the dogs are singularly bad at doing.
This is why it's important to use Life Drain to counterbalance that weakness, because it works beautifully with the high average damage. All that's left to complete this diabolical synergy is higher growth so that the dogs can actually do enough damage to replenish their numbers with Life Drain.
Quote:
Hence a damage-dealer which the Hell Hound/Cerberus supposedly is has to be supplied with the tools to deal damage and No Retaliation is one such tool. Unlimited Retaliations is like Fire Shield - it relies on the opponent to be effective (except that Fire Shield is much less dependent on the stack's durability and is hence more powerful in this regard). So the current configuration makes zero sense.
I'm pretty sure that Unlimited Retaliation might also be called a "tool" for damage-dealing, notwithstanding the fact that it "relies on the opponent." Given the outrageous priority of the hounds, it is safe to call it fairly "reliable."
Of course, it would be less reliable against a human opponent, who would not be stupid enough to consecutively target the dogs with all of his melee stacks. Essentially, it would simply force them to work around it (i.e. use only spells and no retaliation specials, etc.)
Oh, and someone mentioned it earlier in the thread, Black Hole really needs to fix the damned AoE on the dogbite. It's pretty absurd that they cannot attack two units at once if they have a tile between them.
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