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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted January 27, 2012 04:50 AM |
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Quote:
1% per point is too good to give it up. It makes things easy to follow and understand.
1 Point in any stat being worth the same is way better. Just better. Having every different stat use a different scale is just absurd. Not even just because you can only give integers of stats, but things like having to keep track of how many points of one is worth of another and having to do division and multiplication just to compare different artifacts. How is putting each stat on a different scale easier to follow?
____________
I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 27, 2012 07:50 AM |
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Quote:
Again, the number of points people have is already balanced. Necro heroes have less moral and more other things, and all skills and artifacts give equatable number of points for their cost. What needs to change is the effect of a point, so rather than having a hero giving a hero 3x as many points for 1% chance each, just raise it to 3% chance per point of luck.
Raising 3% chance per luck point might mean other balancing issues would need to be adjusted too....and then we start from square one again....I like a previous comment about raising Inferno creatures luck stats instead....
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 27, 2012 09:08 AM |
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Raising Inferno creature stats will not solve the problem if Luck points are worth less than other points. That just means there will be a crossover point before which Inferno will be relatively owerpowered compared to other factions and after which they will be underpowered.
I'm with Miru on this one, I think the most sensible thing would be to aim at making one point of every stat equal to roughly the same. On the other hand, it pains my sense of order to have points of Luck and Morale amount to different bonuses, so what I would probably do is set Luck points and Morale points both to 2 % and increase Luck bonus damage to +77* %.
And I think it's foolish to deny that whatever we do, there will be further tweaking of balance afterwards, so I don't think one should settle for something just by the assumption that once this one thing is done, everything will be perfect.
* That could also be 75 % obviously, but 77 % is more fun because 7 is the number of Luck. The idea is that 2 % chance for 75 % extra damage is equal to 3 % chance for 50 % extra damage.
____________
What will happen now?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 27, 2012 09:33 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 09:35, 27 Jan 2012.
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Inferno's creature stats DO need tweaking though. While the only example of seriously underpowered creature stats-wise is the Hell Hound/Cerberus, some of the others could use some improvements in different stats-related areas:
The Succubus/Lilim could use some extra durability against ranged attacks for instance. Granted, her ability helps in melee (not too much though) but every decent full range shooter pulverizes the stack. So either make the ability work somehow for ranged attacks as well (right now it makes absolutely no sense to give a creature with melee penalty and low durability an ability which works only in melee anyway) or give her extra HP/defense.
The Maniac needs something that takes it out from the "can only attack and not so well" group where it belongs - so either slightly better damage (still lower than the damage of the Demented though) or some weaker version of the Demented's Maniacal Laughter.
The Juggernaut has difficulties using its charge without damaging some friendly stack and in general. Chaotic Armor is nearly useless - how many skills/spells in the game can reduce Might Defense? I think there's a single Dark spell for the purpose and that's it - an entire ability for one spell? Seriously? The Ravager on the other hand needs some extra durability, eventually at the expense of its damage potential, to be the tank that it's supposed to be.
The problems of the Breeder are well-known, no need to mention them again.
The Tormentor/Lacerator is about fine as it is but could use some extra growth.
The Pit Fiend is a nice creature, the Pit Lord however could use slightly more health (10-20 points at most). The real problem here is Boundless Hate. It's simply useless for a Champion creature ability given that you will never have enough Pit Lords compared to the size of the enemy stacks to deal some real damage. It needs either damage increase or to ignore the Magic Defense of the attacked creatures.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 10:25 AM |
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Sorry, but that's nonsense.
Inferno creatures generally suffer from a couple of things which don't have anything to do with their stats, primarily:
1) No army synergy: the Inferno creatures are not in any way strengthening each other; sure, Demented might be mistaken for something like that - but if Demented hit a stack, most of the time that soakes up said stack's retaliation anyway or has reduced the stack significantly, while the gain for the Demented is likely to evaporate as well -, sure, Ravagers might be mistaken for it, but it's the Praetorians that do a much better job here, since they are much better suited for soaking up damage that others should suffer, and sure, Lilims have an interesting ability - but try to make use of it with the rest of your army: it's way better to be used ONLY with more than one stack of Lilims than with the whole army.
Bottom line here: the units are not supporting each other in any way, so that the whole of the army would be worth more than just the creature value.
2) Units are designed in a way to make them single fighters. which leads to "wasted strength" or seemingly useless unit design.
An example would be the Succubi/Lilim's high speed. I'm sure that speed 6 is worth a lot in terms of unit strength; and true - that speed is rather useful, if Lilims are fighting ALONE. you can disengage them pretty well, especially when you Rush them - but of course, once you have additional creatures, why would you have any need to disengage them?
Or take the Pit Lords. A single fighter: can do damage to everyone damaging them - one hell of an asset, if the opponent cannot target anything except them - but, not really that good, once you have an army, because they just target the rest. Or the skill that casts frenzy on the attacked - great thing, because opponent doesn't get a turn with such a unit, and if it attacks the Pit Lords, the retaliation stuff comes into play. But obviously other units are just... a nuisance.
Or the Cerberi. The dogs have very good stats - they are pretty powerful, double square attack, high damage output, unlimited retaliation, better defense than HoMM 5's dogs, they do more damage against units that have damaged them... - but what are you supposed to do with that unit? Sure, you can cast Regeneration on them, place them anywhere useful and let them Defend on them, but what we have here are the characteristics of a unit that has HALF the damage value, DOUBLE the Hit Points, less speed and initiative and instead a better unit production.
Which brings me to
3) Bad creature production: Ravagers, Lacerators and Dogs miss NUMBERS, especially the Elite creatures UPGRADES.
You cannot fix these flaws by altering single creature stats - or, sure, you can try, but we have that already when looking at Stronghold, which works with less army synergy than the rest, but compensate that with raw power. I mean, look at the Maulers. A TON of HPs, damage reduction against ranged attack, gain damage when suffering losses, get a second attack. I mean, WOW, that's what you would call a threat.
I appreciate the faction design of Inferno as probably a deliberate thing - it's somewhat fitting, no matter how you interpret this, but it doesn't change the fact that it makes Inferno underpowered, if creatures are halfway reasonable compared to others, while it would probably be no fun anymore, if they were all powerhouses, either doing insane damage, having insane numbers or HPs and so on.
The only really satisfactory way to design such a faction would have been with faction-specific hero skill trees, allowing the hero to "force" army synergy into that bunch of freaks.
As it is, I rather fear it's hopeless. The best bet is, in my opinion, the racial, because Gating is rather good, if you actually CAN gate stacks, it just needs to work faster and somewhat more reliable.
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 10:55 AM |
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Given a value of 500 damage. Both might and magic. a damage calculation between two heroes. Disproving that luck is underpowered.
Necron
500 + 20 MightP * (50% yes 2.5 per point even if at 100 it is at 7% it will not be at that point right here.) = 750
Magic 500 + 10 Magic P (25%) = 625
Together totals at
1375
7 luck boosts this to
(not including creep stats of any kind)
1519(rounded down)
Infernlal
500 + 19 MightP (47,5%) = 737,5
500 + 8 Magic P (20%) = 600
totals at
1337,5
10 luck boosting into
1538(rounded down)
Now Stop:
- ignoring the fact that luck influences Both Magic and Might.
- Comming up with 100 Might comparisons that are not going to happen
- Using 0 0 0 0 34 34 Heroes as comparisons THAT ARE NOT GOING TO HAPPEN BE R E A L I S T I C
- saying it dous not matter that luck gets stronger with more str seeing as it directly gets stronger
Now That this bickering about luck is out of the way onto necro,
Now we all know that Necro will royaly kick infernals ass becouse this is the worst possible match up for inferno possible
and the most ideal one for Necro. and again stating that wrong and abusive use of numbers means nothing.
I cant help but noticing that this whole topic is bent on making Necron look OP.
The whole fact that Necron has NO access to light magic, is completely minored down seeing as Retribution aura is STILL
one of the most OP things in the game and it will prove a big challenge for Necron but i guess that point is rather forgotten.
Necron is somewhat even against other factions besides infernlal
But then again Infernlal has problems with EVERY faction. but due to its only heal not working on necron ,
Necron is op. (eventho countles counters against necron have been posted on this forums all kindly ignored and
brushed under the rug )
edit : oops forgot to copy the first sentence
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 11:02 AM |
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What are those numbers are supposed to show?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 27, 2012 11:05 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 11:29, 27 Jan 2012.
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Inferno's army lack of synergy can be fixed either by adding skills that make it work as a team or by making it statistically superior (not too superior though) to the other armies which on the other hand are composed of worse individual fighters but put together fight better than on their own. Looking back at Heroes V, Inferno received the things that it really needed to compete with the powerful factions - improved Gating, durable creatures, improved crowd control - with TotE which changed a great number of things, before that nobody bothered with them. I have no reasons to expect that Inferno will be re-designed any time soon, so alternatively it's better to improve what they already have. I'm no programmer but changing a few stats shouldn't be the most complicated and time-consuming thing in the world.
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 11:16 AM |
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Quote:
What are those numbers are supposed to show?
Those numbers are a simple damage comparison For the two heroes you posted. with the inferlal hero getting one extra point in magic damage due to using the same amount of points.
it directly shows that a hero with
19 str
8 magdamage
10 luck
will do more damage as a hero with
20 str
10 mag damage
7 luck.
and with that got your dreams about luck being underpowered out of the way.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 11:32 AM |
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@ Avalon
Ah. So you think defense skill doesn't matter or what?
@ Zenofex
Yes, true, but I don't think you can balance things by adding stats to Inferno creatures - you just cannot compensate missing army synergy AND (in practise) inferior racial with better stats. Also, that wouldn't be much fun.
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 11:56 AM |
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Quote:
@ Avalon
Ah. So you think defense skill doesn't matter or what?
Quote:
But what about Destiny? Even without considering retaliation, 1 point of attack is worth 3 (THREE) points of Destiny AND it's not even gtriggering on retaliation.
After you made everyone believe how useless Luck was i simply showed you that luck is valuable. and not at all underpowered.
The reason i added one extra magic point into the hero is because Luck , Magic Power , Magic Power are all offensive stats. ( Leadership too but that not even counting) and the hero in your example was missing one point.
So dont come here complaining about defence points becouse that has absolutely nothing to do with it
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 12:20 PM |
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Dude, apart from the fact that you talk gibberish - learn arithmetics! This were numbers:
Quote:
Necron
500 + 20 MightP * (50% yes 2.5 per point even if at 100 it is at 7% it will not be at that point right here.) = 750
Magic 500 + 10 Magic P (25%) = 625
Together totals at
1375
7 luck boosts this to
(not including creep stats of any kind)
1519(rounded down)
Infernlal
500 + 19 MightP (47,5%) = 737,5
500 + 8 Magic P (20%) = 600
totals at
1337,5
10 luck boosting into
1538(rounded down)
Let's say we accept all the simplifications and ignore defense, so we have a combined 1375 for Necro and a combined 1338 (rounded UP) for Inferno, Luck gibīves FIFTY percent only, so 10% of Luck makes FIVE percent, and 5 percent are 67 points of damage (rounded up), while 3.5% of 1375 are 48 points (rounded down).
This brings Necro damage to 1423 and the Inferno to a somewhat inferior 1405.
Any questions?
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 12:54 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 12:56, 27 Jan 2012.
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While I appreciate this thread's deep analysis of one of the balance problems, I don't think destiny/luck is the only thing going awry with Inferno. It seems from the responses on this thread that I'm not alone on this.
I agree with you, JJ, that Inferno should NOT work like other factions. I don't want either more healing nor more synergy for them.
I've spent much discussing of what Inferno's identity is: brutal (and indiscriminate) attacks and confusing (but often unpredictable) side-effects.
The correct route I think is to buff Inferno's meddling effects like Enthrall, Mana Leech, Abyssal Worm and Blade of Hatred while on the other side buffing statistics of the maulers they have, like cerberi, maniacs and ravagers.
Way I see it, you either do this or it won't work.
I'd like to point out that this started as a discussion of general balance and yet ended up on Inferno and Necro because in a game of conflicting elements some healthy Rock-Paper-Scissors interaction goes away just as soon as one of the factors is sub par to the others. Inferno's balance problems are the game's balance problems.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 27, 2012 01:17 PM |
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If Rock-Paper-Scissors are applied to Haven-Naga-Stronghold, then:
Atom bomb would apply to necro, and
Feather would apply to Inferno 
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 01:23 PM |
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Quote:
Dude, apart from the fact that you talk gibberish - learn arithmetics! This were numbers:
Let's say we accept all the simplifications and ignore defense, so we have a combined 1375 for Necro and a combined 1338 (rounded UP) for Inferno, Luck gibīves FIFTY percent only, so 10% of Luck makes FIVE percent, and 5 percent are 67 points of damage (rounded up), while 3.5% of 1375 are 48 points (rounded down).
This brings Necro damage to 1423 and the Inferno to a somewhat inferior 1405.
Any questions?
The difference in damage is neglectable as it is right now. The differences with double , let alone tripple luck will be way more unbalanced as it is right now. I guess i have to thank you for confiming yourself that Damage and luck are not so imbalanced after all.
Now i hope you see how it feels when someone will be biased and simply ignore certain parts be it of logics or math to gain their right. now that you have seen it please refrain form it yourself.
now go learn some logics!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 01:40 PM |
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Quote:
While I appreciate this thread's deep analysis of one of the balance problems, I don't think destiny/luck is the only thing going awry with Inferno. It seems from the responses on this thread that I'm not alone on this.
I agree with you, JJ, that Inferno should NOT work like other factions. I don't want either more healing nor more synergy for them.
I've spent much discussing of what Inferno's identity is: brutal (and indiscriminate) attacks and confusing (but often unpredictable) side-effects.
The correct route I think is to buff Inferno's meddling effects like Enthrall, Mana Leech, Abyssal Worm and Blade of Hatred while on the other side buffing statistics of the maulers they have, like cerberi, maniacs and ravagers.
Way I see it, you either do this or it won't work.
I'd like to point out that this started as a discussion of general balance and yet ended up on Inferno and Necro because in a game of conflicting elements some healthy Rock-Paper-Scissors interaction goes away just as soon as one of the factors is sub par to the others. Inferno's balance problems are the game's balance problems.
Well, the OP is not jut about Destiny, even though that point takes up much space; it's also about the faction racials, the racial immunities in combination with creature abilities and magical attacks, about the off-balance Elite production arithmetics and of faction synergy. I repeat that the main problem with Destiny seems to be that it is weaker than every other primary stat, but you need it when playing Inferno (and what's worse, this is balanced so that opposing Luck is playing a role as well - if following the direction of other factions, Luck of other factions would have to give three times as many racial points as the own luck triggers).
Of course there are many more considerations, for example creature abilities a)you have full control over: healing, pacification, and so on - the enemy has no way to influence the working of those, and b) those THE ENEMY has control over: unlimited retaliation, the retaliate against all ability of the PLs, the ability to withstand everything that reduces defense, and so on: these abilities are not giving the owner of the troops an option, but only limit opponent's valid tactical options.
Unlimited Retaliation, for example, just means that you cannot take such a creature peacemeal. Hit them HARD or hit them RANGED. ADDING offensive stats to such a creature just means, that the target will be allocated more priority: it will get ALL enemy fire, instead of just a crippling shot, and it will be hit by the best hitter, so that THE OTHER creatures in effect profit, but not the one with the better stats.
Conversely, if the unlimited retaliation stack is DURABLE, but has not much offensive power, it makes no sense to attack the beast at all.
The same thing is true for the Pit Lords with their Hateful Retaliation - if they do too much damage themselves, you cannot allow them to hit stacks unmolested, CONSEQUENTLY you have to hit them hard within a round.
I think, that if you look at the Inferno creatures the main problem is, that you cannot make real use of creature abilities - it's more that they pave the road for opponent how to deal with the Inferno, instead of giving the Inferno player tactical options.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted January 27, 2012 01:50 PM |
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hehe, a good portion of the first post says similar to what I stated on patch 1.2 discussion thread p12, specifically luck/morale hero stats worse than other stats and that being undead is supposed to have some disadvantages to go together with its mind-immunity advantages. [but use heaps more words & then 4 pages of discussions/explanations ]
no wonder JJ reply there when he was saving up for this...
glad we agree...Although I really wonder why there wasn't enough noise from VIPs in the first place.
Every time my hero levels & gets a luck stat boost instead of one of the other stats, I think argh, damnit...
the thing is to make morale/luck hero stat better balanced overall for the whole game (eg. even 1 stat = 1.5% trigger for a trial) BEFORE trying to balance the other faction vs faction stuff {because better morale/luck trigger chances WILL make inferno bit better vs necro}
...but anyway, the designers crusaded against randomness in this game so this partly explains it because morale/luck will always be random
why don't they get rid of morale/luck altogether just like resources
[don't feed the troll]
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 02:06 PM |
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Quote:
...but anyway, the designers crusaded against randomness in this game so this partly explains it because morale/luck will always be random
The Tree huggers in H5 would like a word with you. and so do the dwarves.
the only thing they messed up about luck is that they used its random facter to fill a racial.
The wrong thing about Necro heroes is that they dont have morale.
If necro heroes like all other Heroes would have morale then that would be a decent disadvantage as stat.
Undead units not having morale is one thing But That Heroes dont have it is wrong.
The necro units should have Morale like all other units So that the point distribution stays even but
making sure that the ghouls etc dont get extra attack becouse they dont have points in morale.
The same should go for Necro heroes.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 02:22 PM |
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Man, if everything were equal for everyone, and Luck and Moral had no further effect, everyone getting points for them without their doing like some plague, of course it wouldn't matter - but then you could just do away with them, since no one would need them, least of all the game.
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 02:52 PM |
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Quote:
Man, if everything were equal for everyone, and Luck and Moral had no further effect, everyone getting points for them without their doing like some plague, of course it wouldn't matter - but then you could just do away with them, since no one would need them, least of all the game.
That is again simply not true and noone mentioned equal.
There are still neutrals , Creeps form sanctuary heroes that you can put in your army.
asside from that. Every hero puts points into something they do not want for Necro the exeption is that they get no morale why? for what reason and it is also impossible to do away with points on level up not to mention unfair. Putting stat points into something you dont need happens to everyone tho and thus i woudnt mind seeing morale on necro heroes.
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This thread is pages long: 
