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einomida
Known Hero
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posted March 01, 2012 06:54 PM |
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I'd say that every unit can be a meatshield, but unless they are actually designed to do so like the Praetorians, it's not a real use for them. As I see it the Cerberi are only good for suiciding into enemy ranks to give your other units enough time to gate.
Whether or not it was the developer's intention to do so, designing a unit around such a concept - death is beneficial - is bad and would thematically perhaps only work for Necro.
And this is not only because Cerberi lack in the department they should be the top dog (pun intended), but overall as well. I mean even tanks aren't meant to die even though you want to draw as much aggro to them as possible.
So all in all - even if they work strategically, it's not a conceptually sound design and in my opinion that's the Cerberi's, and actually overall Inferno's, biggest weakness. It seems like the developers weren't sure where to aim. Another example is the blitzing Succubus (if I recall correctly), or the not-so-beefy tank unit (As Zenofex is saying).
I'll add again I don't have much practical knowledge I'm just basing this on general impression.
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 01, 2012 08:24 PM |
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Quote:
But this is not about Praetorians doing too much damage, it's about Cerberi doing too little. And comparing the dmg/week of a super defense unit with a super charging unit and seeing the difference is almost nonexistent is exactly how you can conclude something is amiss.
Heck I could even say just charge with Praetorians because they do same damage as Cerberi and don't die as quick (joke ofc).
Hallelujah! Thank you, einomida, for helping me keep my sanity.
That was indeed my precisely my point, and I didn't think that it was such an obscure one.
Not sure why SKPrimus keeps insisting that I do work that he could just as well do himself. As it is, the table that I posted above contains both minimum "base" numbers and +3 from Castle, so you can get an idea from there how the units scale relative to one another when they have more growth. As with any unit that is quite strong individually, they will fare better and better against high-growth units when you continually add the same number to both stacks. The situation gets slightly better for the dogs after Castle growth, but they're still an underpowered stack compared to the other Cores. Go ahead and throw in your Architect I on secondary heroes and an external dwelling if you like (after all, external dwellings still set growth on unit strength to an extent); the situation for the dogs will improve a small bit once again (relative to the other units), but the stack will still be underpowered. I fail to see the point in any case, since the dogs could hardly be considered "balanced" if you needed all of those "external" factors in order to balance them.
However, I want to make something clear that I thought JJ already had. While the dogs are indeed somewhat badly balanced in terms of their growth (lowest in the game, tied with Mauler/Crusher), this is not the primary reason that they drop like flies. The most important factor is enemy aggro, which, ironically, operates on the assumption that the dogs are quite dangerous (they are). The second most important factor is the Inferno's extremely limited recovery potential. The Inferno do not have large stacks of Priestesses to cast Regen, Sisters or Ghosts or Angels to cast Heal, or Heroes with Guardian shields or mass resurrection potential. After all, Liches also drop like flies, but a good Necro hero can undo massive amounts of damage to the Lich stack with one use of his racial.
As JJ has already said, the dogs would have to have absolutely ridiculously overpowered stats to survive in light of these factors, and that's not a good solution. Indeed, a quick glance at their stats relative to the other Cores should be sufficient to demonstrate that their individual unit strength is not the problem, inasmuch as it is arguably the best of all the Cores. This is why I find it exasperating that people keep wanting to buff the hell out of the dogs. They're strong enough already. They're only lacking in stack strength, which does indeed demand a buff (+2/+2, I'm thinking). However, this will not "fix" the problem of the dogs going down so quickly, since the two main reasons for it will not have changed. Extra growth will certainly help them last a little bit longer, but it is mainly for the purposes of making the dog stack balanced with the other Core stacks.
So is there a "fix" to the problem? Obviously, enemy aggro is sort of a "neutral" factor in this regard; it's bad for the dogs, of course, but it takes pressure off the rest of your army, so it balances out. The only fix to that "problem" would be to make the dogs less dangerous by nerfing their damage, but why on earth would anyone want to nerf their strongest asset?
That leaves us with the Inferno recovery problem, and that's a much wider problem than the dogs. Obviously, there are two possible balancing solutions to this problem (assuming we leave the other factions alone): give the Inferno a similar recovery option (please just no, there's already too much in the game) or give the Inferno something to compensate for their lack of recovery potential, e.g. better damage and first strike than the other recovery-heavy factions. As it stands, the individual Inferno units are quite damaging and have good initiative, but because the Inferno has the weakest overall faction growth, they do only middling damage compared to the other factions. As I proposed above, I think that by simply increasing the growth of the frankly under-growing units in the Inferno (which is all but Succubus and Pit Lord), they would be much closer to balanced. While Gating is clearly not enough to compensate for Inferno's lack of recovery, if it is combined with an overall higher potential for damage from the Inferno, I think that they would be on-par, which is an exciting thought.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 01, 2012 08:31 PM |
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Quote:
That leaves us with the Inferno recovery problem, and that's a much wider problem than the dogs. Obviously, there are two possible balancing solutions to this problem (assuming we leave the other factions alone): give the Inferno a similar recovery option (please just no, there's already too much in the game) or give the Inferno something to compensate for their lack of recovery potential, e.g. better damage and first strike than the other recovery-heavy factions. As it stands, the individual Inferno units are quite damaging and have good initiative, but because the Inferno has the weakest overall faction growth, they do only middling damage compared to the other factions. As I proposed above, I think that by simply increasing the growth of the frankly under-growing units in the Inferno (which is all but Succubus and Pit Lord), they would be much closer to balanced. While Gating is clearly not enough to compensate for Inferno's lack of recovery, if it is combined with an overall higher potential for damage from the Inferno, I think that they would be on-par, which is an exciting thought.
In as much as I agree that general Healing/Resurrection abilities with factions are too much, I still think giving the Breeders an activated ability similar to "Reinforcements" would both work with the Breeder theme and help Inferno in a very tight spot for them, so I do think it's a thought worth playing with.
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What will happen now?
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 01, 2012 08:56 PM |
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In the last posts you keep looking at the cerberi problem as a separate inferno issue.
For example if bad luck is introduced in the game (as intended) and luck system overall gets reajusted, most likely there will not be so many cerberi casualties. This will not be sufficient, so some +growth can also help.
Eye of Gluttony - is such a useless skill. It does not work in practice. They fall mainly because of ranged or spell damage. And they fall so many during creeping that it will just not be enough of them to make the 20% matter.
Inferno feels right as a faction that will lose units to creeping, just do not make them loose too much.
So once again touching only cerberi or only one aspect of them will not improve the situation much.
so I would say a mix of the following is needed:
- introduce bad luck (reduces casualties)
- increase a little their weekly growth
- Unlimited retaliation -> No retaliation (make them like until H6)
- Eye of Glutony - can stay or can be turned into a -luck skill
- and ffs 4 squares? for some dogs? and 2 heads only?
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 01, 2012 09:31 PM |
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I agree whit krs on this one - you can't simply judge whole faction based on single unit. Imo it's OK if one unit in a given faction is "weaker" (which purely statisticaly dogs aren't).
Problem with inferno lies elswhere - faction as a whole does not work in synergy like the rest of them. In case of Necropolis and Haven we have creatures that compliment each other - that's why they feel stronger.
To that end i fully agree that cerebrii need no retaliation ability - to me it just feels wrong without it - almost like ... dragon which can't fly (yes looking at you H5 dwarven T7).
regarding healing I personaly don't think would be solution to Inferno - healing itself - well there's nothing wrong with it i think, but so far we don't have enough answers to it (maybe more creatures that prevent healing?), nor do we have equaly strong but diferent power/mechanic. I feel like Inferno should be here... they don't heal but have.. umm.. luck or desteny or whatever is it now-a-days (i still call it luck) - but with luck there's a trap - ppl don't like abilities based on chance - so it's also psychological factor to it that makes Inferno seem weaker.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 01, 2012 10:10 PM |
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And yet it has been argued pretty convincingly previously in this topic why giving the dogs No Retaliation instead of Unlimited Retaliations will probably be more of a disadvantage than an advantage.
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What will happen now?
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 12:37 AM |
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well that may be - but i just happen to disagree on this. Unlimited retaliation never realy worked for me so far.
I played against hard AI and i could count on the palm of my had the times my cerebrii retaliated more than 2 times per turn.
There are two main reasons for this: 1. there are many creatures with ranged attack, and some with No retaliation perk, which means cerebrii can't retaliate on them; and 2. the 2-headed, 4 square dog dies too quick.
Unlimited retaliation is good for creatures that are more durable than this. Cerebrii are attackers imo - they just aren't type of creatures to "park" themselves on battlefield and retaliate - like Kenshi.
To take full advantage of this ability the folowing must be true (atleast to me it feels this way): Creature is durable to sustain dmg, and 2; creatures have somewhat poor initiative - so that it makes sense to have unlimited retaliation. - and Cerebrii has neither of this atributes.
Now with all this who's to say he can't have both ? Adding "No Enemy Retaliation" on top of "Unlimited reatliation" would certanley make for badd ass attacker
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted March 02, 2012 12:45 AM |
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Quote:
Nah, I think you are just theorycrafting without actual experience. The things which you say are not impossible but most of them are very unlikely to happen exactly as you say. Hence - unreliable at best.
What have you tried the Cerberi against by the way? Necropolis? They are low priority for the Necro army but can't do much against it either. Why don't you try against a skilful Stronghold player and then come back to claim things? Just a hint: Inferno definitely CAN win against Stronghold, actually this is the only faction that is its relative equal, but not due to the dogs, period.
All right I tested it some more, and I'll admit to being wrong. The deciding factor is the dreamreaver's battlefield-wide initiative debuff though, not the racial. With it, panthers will always go first. After that it kinda goes downhill, they're in control of the game, not the demons.
Still think everyone is blowing the cerberi's weakness out of proportion though. I'm with Seingeist and what he's proposing and why.
Quote:
well that may be - but i just happen to disagree on this. Unlimited retaliation never realy worked for me so far.
I played against hard AI and i could count on the palm of my had the times my cerebrii retaliated more than 2 times per turn.
There are two main reasons for this: 1. there are many creatures with ranged attack, and some with No retaliation perk, which means cerebrii can't retaliate on them; and 2. the 2-headed, 4 square dog dies too quick.
Unlimited retaliation is good for creatures that are more durable than this. Cerebrii are attackers imo - they just aren't type of creatures to "park" themselves on battlefield and retaliate - like Kenshi.
To take full advantage of this ability the folowing must be true (atleast to me it feels this way): Creature is durable to sustain dmg, and 2; creatures have somewhat poor initiative - so that it makes sense to have unlimited retaliation. - and Cerebrii has neither of this atributes.
Now with all this who's to say he can't have both ? Adding "No Enemy Retaliation" on top of "Unlimited reatliation" would certanley make for badd ass attacker
I think he's refering to what someone said about no retaliation making any kind of gated stacks unable to steal retaliations. Personnally that the gated dogs can't steal retaliations doesn't bother me much, but maybe that's just me being very inexperienced again or something.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted March 02, 2012 12:45 AM |
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this double-posted for some reason. My apologies.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 01:36 AM |
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Edited by krs at 01:38, 02 Mar 2012.
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"Locksley"
Finally, the design of Inferno is really boring. Maniacs, ravagers and tormentors (and ghouls) are basically the same creature, breeders are too something, and the cerberi have lost a head (****and no retaliation****). And none of these creatures are powerful, they are just ok fighters doing their job (well, not breeders). Other factions have powerful creatures that work well together in a well designed suit."
Now that is a post i agree 100% with!
And before reading my rant about inferno balance... Given the current state of Heroes 6, the quick and easy (while not perfect solution) that I see for inferno/luck is...
- Luck triggering feels OK. Please do not mess with them!
- You gain 1 point that equals 1% luck. That is simple keep it so!
- Increase damage. to 75%-100% for a first.
- Bring in bad luck (and not as an extra stat! Add skills/spells/inferno special/artifacts.)
- Angel Watch like building for filing inferno gauge to level 1 at beginning of battle.
- Gating 1 -> core; Gating 2: elite or core IMMEDIATELY...etc
- Fix gates not being an obstacle for opponents shooters.
- cerberii + 2growth and + some HP.
- bring cerberii with no retaliation as alt upgrades
- and FFs no healers for inferno!
About Cerberii....
Quote:
And yet it has been argued pretty convincingly previously in this topic why giving the dogs No Retaliation instead of Unlimited Retaliations will probably be more of a disadvantage than an advantage.
I think the discussion went more in favor of no retaliation. I forgot why because immediately after I read 1 hour about luck in Heroes 6  .
Here my "reasons"
- I loath the whole "theme" discussions but I have to ask why must Inferno (of all races) rely on healing for creeping? Inferno is a race that wants to rush things over, thats why the big damage dealers. So remove the multiple retaliation/lifestealing combo already.
- they do not have the hp or defense for that job.
- you have to use a skill and a hero turn only for that combo
- the combo is good for creeping but bad for player vs player combats or vs necro.
- No retaliation was good for creeping in heroes 3 and 5 i do not see why not here?
So the "perfect" solution... Bring no retaliation cerberii as alt upgrades!
About luck....
I do not want to bring the whole discussion again but from what I understood and from gut feeling here is my solution for luck. (for reasons you have to read the rest of the posts  )
- Luck triggerings feel OK do not mess with them! (not from better artifacts or skills or anything.)
To balance luck... the easiest/simplest/quickest way would be to make the extra damage bigger. Not too big to be erratic but definitely bigger!
- Increase damage. to 75% for a first. Do not over-balance it. (No 2 points / level up, No 2%/ luck point)
Additionally:
- Bring in bad luck (and not as an extra stat. Add skills/spells/inferno special/artifacts)
Here some quotes on luck that I 100% agree with.
"seingeist"
The reason that changing the damage boost instead of the trigger chance is simpler is because for the most part*, the game is already balanced on the (woefully false) assumption that 1 Luck point is equivalent to 1 Might point, and it is balanced with the devs desired potential "crit frequencies" in mind. Altering only the damage boost would render Luck and Might actually equivalent while at the same time maintaining the original desired crit frequencies.
Altering the trigger chance, on the other hand, would require rebalancing of numerous other abilities and statistics (quite a few, actually) in order keep crit frequencies in check.
hobo2 "If you don't want luck and morale triggers to be big, and you don't want them to be constant, then you have defacto determined that you will only accept luck and morale events that are crap. Which of course is what we have now."
seingeist "1c) Increase damage boost (significantly) of critical hits (100%, possibly 150%). The beauty of this is that it would require less overall re-balancing of various other stats than both 1a) and 1b). Trigger frequency remains the same, ability score ratios remain the same, etc.
For the record 1a) and 1b) were:
(1a) Either double the gain at level-up, so that if you up the Morale/Luck stat, it is increased be 2 points whereas Attack/Defence is only increased by 1 point [and give Luck a little extra bonus damage, ~15 %];
1b) or make it so that 1 point in Luck/Morale equals 2 % trigger chance [and give Luck a little extra bonus damage, ~15 %].)
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 02, 2012 04:06 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 04:07, 02 Mar 2012.
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The part with the gated Cerberi being unable to steal retaliations is currently irrelevant because nobody in his right mind will gate them (and nobody does from what I've seen). With the gated stack of dogs being dependent on a fragile original stack which can hardly take more than 2-3 hits from the opposing tier-mates (let alone something bigger), this is a 100% failed investment. You will gate your back line and your tough and tactically useful melee combatants (a second stack of Ravagers really helps, as does a "deep strike" with Tormentors/Lacerators and then using their special), not your glass cannons. In fact, with No Retaliation there is a chance that the Cerberi could see themselves gated, in the right situation - unlike now.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 02, 2012 07:03 AM |
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No, the turning argument for me was not the Gating part, but the fact that without Unlimited Retaliation, they won't be able to use Life Drain effectively, which would be one of the important life savers for Inferno as I understand it. Plus, the (limited) size of battlefield and lower range in Initiative difference makes hit-and-run hard to execute. Thirdly, having only one retaliation will make it easier to soak up that retaliation with just one stack and then focus all power on the Cerberi after that to take them out completely.
The point was that No Retaliation might in fact no longer be the great life saver that it was in previous games. I can't say whether it is true or not, but I do myself find it some relevant points to take into consideration. I used to favor the No Retaliation approach myself, but I'm no longer sure that is the best solution.
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What will happen now?
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted March 02, 2012 07:38 AM |
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Quote:
No, the turning argument for me was not the Gating part, but the fact that without Unlimited Retaliation, they won't be able to use Life Drain effectively, which would be one of the important life savers for Inferno as I understand it. Plus, the (limited) size of battlefield and lower range in Initiative difference makes hit-and-run hard to execute. Thirdly, having only one retaliation will make it easier to soak up that retaliation with just one stack and then focus all power on the Cerberi after that to take them out completely.
The point was that No Retaliation might in fact no longer be the great life saver that it was in previous games. I can't say whether it is true or not, but I do myself find it some relevant points to take into consideration. I used to favor the No Retaliation approach myself, but I'm no longer sure that is the best solution.
Dunno about that, the dogs don't need a whole lot of attention to go down. In duel mode, that necromancer killed 70 dogs right off the bat with lightning, making them pointless immediately. Stuff happens I guess. Point being, you can make them irrelevant very quickly. And if you attack them with anything that has a good damage output, you don't really have to worry about the dog's counterattack, because there won't be enough dogs left to threaten you seriously.
Life drain requires you to maintain enough numbers to have a decent damage output, which it can use to help you recover more numbers. The cerberi can't get through that first part, where they keep being relevant long enough, so I dunno about life drain on retaliations helping them a whole lot.
Also, no retaliation doesn't necessarily mean unlimited retaliation is out, does it? It's not like unlimited is doing much for it to begin with. At least it never felt like it to me.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 09:31 AM |
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Edited by krs at 09:32, 02 Mar 2012.
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Leave them with multiple retaliation, make an alternate upgrade with no retaliation. Everybody should be pleased (but they won't )
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 10:09 AM |
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Well i dont see why it is a problem that the dog is 4 squares.
Because its big becouse of unlimited retaliation it gets used.
The dogs Besides Growthrate are pretty decent. The size of the dog is good in my oppinion. works well with unlimited retaliation.
I have a much bigger problem with the breeders, but that aside.
There are atleast two things that could help one of inferno's bigger problems.
1:Gating Let an x% of the gated units stay after battle(with no more then original stack size) . This way Inferno wont become a healing faction but will be able to play more offensively as it is assumed to be played. Ether give this option to all of inferno's creatures or give the dog some fancy named ability with the same result so it only happens to them.
I think this would boost inferno's creeping ability by enough.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 10:19 AM |
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Listen to Seingeist!
It's a question of faction synergy (or the lack of it).
Imagine you had a stack of Vestals in your Inferno army. Suddenly things are different: 1) you don't lose dogs anymore while creeping, none whatsoever. 2) Decimating dogs makes no sense as long as Vestals resurrect them, so YOUR TARGET PRIORITIES CHANGE.
Now imagine, your Vestals are protected by Praetorians - and now suddenly killing the Vestals isn't easy as well, and if you do, they can heal themselves.
Meanwhile, your dogs start butchering the opposition - and once you got damage you can Guardian-Angel them.
Now, with the ACTUAL inferno there is NO synergy that would keep the dogs alive/change target priorities.
It IS true that there are not enough dogs, on general principle: You get 5+3; Necro gets 4+3 Vampires who have an intrinsic Life Drain.
FACTUALLY you can make the dogs stronger - by making them weaker. Let's say, Cerberi where at 3-7 damage, but had 33 HPs and would be 6+4, no one would bother - they would all go for Maniacs and Succubi and Lacerators and whatnot - or at least had difficulties in determining target priorities, so losses would be less on dogs. Also losses would be less to nil in creeping.
But that would probably be already to much army synergy or something.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 10:24 AM |
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Cannot here be a faction without any form of healing? even if disguised? The loss of troops can be prevented/compensated.
I am sick and tired of all the resurrecting in H6.
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 11:03 AM |
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it's like i said aswell - what makes Haven and Inferno powerfull is, that creatures compliment one another on battlefield, not the individual unit power or healing per se. Inferno dosen't have this.
Now healing itself is one way of "linking" creatures to function in synergy (it's the easiest way out imo), but i think not the only possible solution. And when thinking about alternatives I think game designers didn't have an answer to it. That's why we have so many versions of "heal" spell, and all factions rely on it (those who don't die a horrible horrible death) - and it's even them main mechanic of 2 of them (Haven and Necro).
Immagine dogs had this kind of ability instead of retaliation things for eg: "When stack of cerebrii dies all your other Inferno creatures get 100% chance of lucky strike for the next one (or 2) turn(s)"
suddenly losing them dosen't sound so bad - as it means more dmg from other creatures + filling up gating function
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 02, 2012 11:44 AM |
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Well that would just beg for exploitation with a couple of one-Cerberi stacks ...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 12:01 PM |
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Also, it's a no-go: with winning-by-not-losing-anything is an option for Haven, Necro and Sanctuary, winning-by-losing may be an option to win one battle, but you will definitely lose the war.
There simply is no option more powerful than being able to control the pace of a battle and make sure you don't lose units. You would need an offset to make it viable, like, for example, make gained XP dependent on time spent in battle as well (or give XP for lost creatures; that was, by the way, something I DID suggest a LOOOONG time ago as a BLOOD ability:
LEARNING BY MISTAKE: Hero gets 5x XP value for FRIENDLY creatures, not gated or summonned or otherwise gained in battle, that are lost in battle (the actual multiplier for the xp gained would have had to be subject of testing, of course, but the idea as such was sound).
This would have allowed BRUTAL blood play with a faction like inferno, not caring about the sissy Resurrection nonsense, butchering opponents, ending with having less troops, but better heroes than the opposition.
Of course, Inferno is set-up wrong for this, since you would need more and weaker creatures, not the 3+1 Elite and 5+3 Cerberi bulldrek.
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This thread is pages long: 
