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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 21, 2012 05:25 PM |
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It's also question of making it work and adding it to the game (interface change, new stats, etc, etc.)
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 21, 2012 08:52 PM |
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True, true, that's an entirely different story.
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What will happen now?
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httassadar
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 22, 2012 10:41 AM |
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Quote:
A few comments, I don't know the game well enough to say that what I suggest is balanced (or even possible), but:
- I think shooters in general should have range penalty. The ability to shoot at full range with full damage should be limited to a few creatures like previously.
- I think the ranged ability should be moved from Fate Weavers Spider to Human form. The Human form should do less damage but be ranged, the Spider form does the more damage but is melee. I'm not sure of what other abilities it has, in general I think the Human form should have the magic oriented abilities, whereas the Spider form should have the might oriented abilities (poison, web, etc.).
H6 introduced "Cover", which halves ranged damage. I think that's why they make so many creatures full range. Cover is an interesting concept, but I totally agree that most creatures should have range penalty
Yeah, said the same thing for the spiders. Melee spiders deal damage to all adjacent enemy or enemy in front arc. Necro now is the only faction that has no creature that can deal area damage. Also, they should start as melee for balance issue I guess.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted February 23, 2012 07:21 AM |
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@JJ - Yes, I like your suggestion on luck in defense but it might complicate things too much, we would need two luck modifiers, one for damage and one for defense, but since we have primary stats with both (might attack/defense, magic attack/defense) it might be on the right lines for H6....
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted February 24, 2012 08:02 PM |
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Edited by krs at 20:18, 24 Feb 2012.
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I have red the OP and the first 2 pages then I stopped, so I do not know how far the solutions have gone.
So...
I agree with many posters. Balance not only by making the weak factions stronger but also make the strong ones slightly weaker.
For Inferno.
Improve racial...
1) Give Inferno - Angel Watch. (Fills the Guardian Angel faction ability gauge to rank 1 at the start of each combat).
Rant: If this is given to the weak inferno it can be made stackable with more of the same buildings in other towns. (1 building for core, 2 buildings for elite, 3 buildings for champ). In this way we make a better use of a strange unique building Haven has. It is one of the few that does nothing the more castles you build (It could not ever stack with Haven because they are too op anyway).
2) I also feel the need of an immediate effect when using the ability. So make gating decrease luck in an area around it. This way it will help refill faster and will address 3)...
3) I never saw bad luck in this game. Make it happen!!! A lot! It is such a great mechanic that I really do not understand why was it not enforced. And makes so much sense for Inferno.
4) Cerberii die way, way too fast and too much during creeping!!! You can only mitigate this whit reinforcements but to a very low extent. Fix this somehow. One idea would be to let them as vulnerable as they are now, but make them decrease luck of enemy creatures that kill them proportional to the killed cerberii. This will also address the weak racial and put in place the wonderful bad luck mechanics.
5) FFS no healers to Inferno!!!! Everybody is complaining about too much healing. The answer is not give more healing to all races!!!
edit:
6) Heart of Urgash. The efficiency of the Gating faction ability is increased by 10%. I guess this is cumulative.
If so... here the problem: It is highly dependent on map size! And because of this it is hard to make it any good early on in any map because of the cumulative effect in a huge map. Almost all good multiplayer maps will have 2 or less than 4 castles per player so this will add to almost nothing. Suggestion increase the base effect and make it a progression like in necro towns.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted February 25, 2012 12:49 AM |
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Quote:
4) Cerberii die way, way too fast and too much during creeping!!! You can only mitigate this whit reinforcements but to a very low extent. Fix this somehow. One idea would be to let them as vulnerable as they are now, but make them decrease luck of enemy creatures that kill them proportional to the killed cerberii. This will also address the weak racial and put in place the wonderful bad luck mechanics.
easiest way to fix the cerberii is to remove this silly ability they have now of always retaliating, and give them what they used to have : no retaliation.
unlimited retaliation in and of itself is not a bad ability, but right now it's on a creature that you are doing everything to avoid it being attacked, ie doing everything to avoid it coming into play. So like I said, silly ability for cerberii ( I believe it is supposed to discourage from attacking, like previous unlimited retaliationers, griffins or golems in HoMM5 for example, who were shooter fodder but melee guys tended to avoid them. It's not working here because everybody knows that so many cerberii are gonna die, the counterattack won't be scary, so it doesn't discourage people).
EDIT : the logic with no retaliation being, their function is to deal damage, with it they can do so without getting killed by the counter. Ennemies actually have to target and destroy the damage dealer, and doubly : not only is it the only way to kill them, but they do a lot of damage, when it comes down to it, so they really have to.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted February 25, 2012 12:58 AM |
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Edited by krs at 00:59, 25 Feb 2012.
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I agree this can also be a fix. Bring back H3 cerberii.
Too bad we do not know what they had in mind when they changed cerberii this way. Maybe Inferno was too OP that way and they had to nerf them  .
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 25, 2012 08:23 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
4) Cerberii die way, way too fast and too much during creeping!!! You can only mitigate this whit reinforcements but to a very low extent. Fix this somehow. One idea would be to let them as vulnerable as they are now, but make them decrease luck of enemy creatures that kill them proportional to the killed cerberii. This will also address the weak racial and put in place the wonderful bad luck mechanics.
easiest way to fix the cerberii is to remove this silly ability they have now of always retaliating, and give them what they used to have : no retaliation.
unlimited retaliation in and of itself is not a bad ability, but right now it's on a creature that you are doing everything to avoid it being attacked, ie doing everything to avoid it coming into play. So like I said, silly ability for cerberii ( I believe it is supposed to discourage from attacking, like previous unlimited retaliationers, griffins or golems in HoMM5 for example, who were shooter fodder but melee guys tended to avoid them. It's not working here because everybody knows that so many cerberii are gonna die, the counterattack won't be scary, so it doesn't discourage people).
EDIT : the logic with no retaliation being, their function is to deal damage, with it they can do so without getting killed by the counter. Ennemies actually have to target and destroy the damage dealer, and doubly : not only is it the only way to kill them, but they do a lot of damage, when it comes down to it, so they really have to.
JJ did have a good point, however, that with small battlefields, No Retaliation on itself is not really that good to preserve it. The combination of both would work. Or give them the ability to retaliate before the enemy attacks (First Strike), that would also work coupled with Unlimited Retaliations.
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What will happen now?
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted February 25, 2012 11:24 AM |
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Agreed, with life drain it would make them dogs pretty good!
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 25, 2012 12:32 PM |
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one way of balancing cerebri is simply increasing their growth rate - they are weak but numerous - or/and adding no melee retaliation (they had it before - why not now!)
as far as overall game i think heroes series realy needs some sort of limiting factor on how many troops each hero can have. This is controversial indeed but think! - the game realy gets unbalanced late in game with hundrets of champion creatures on battleground - it would also give us reason to split our armies more and balance out might vs magic more easily. Unlimited army is fun and all but this is old concept and balance can suffer for it.
one way i think game could balance in H6 terms is giving shared growth for core, elite and champion units - will you have 12 pupies in army? or will you have 6 of them and 6 succubi? - it would make for more options to choose from.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 26, 2012 07:05 PM |
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Quote:
one way i think game could balance in H6 terms is giving shared growth for core, elite and champion units - will you have 12 pupies in army? or will you have 6 of them and 6 succubi? - it would make for more options to choose from.
That would throw balance out of the window. Need proof? See how much better necro is with two ghost stacks in duel mode.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Kivo
Famous Hero
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posted February 26, 2012 09:47 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
one way i think game could balance in H6 terms is giving shared growth for core, elite and champion units - will you have 12 pupies in army? or will you have 6 of them and 6 succubi? - it would make for more options to choose from.
That would throw balance out of the window. Need proof? See how much better necro is with two ghost stacks in duel mode.
Or maybe, each creature is worth some points which you gain very week. If you upgrade your castle you gain more of them just like with growth of creatures. This way if you have 20 points and the skeleton is worth 1 point and the ghost is worth 1,5 for example it would be more balanced. Bit I guess this would make stuff complicated and it will take time to decide how much each creature is worth.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted February 27, 2012 01:55 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
one way i think game could balance in H6 terms is giving shared growth for core, elite and champion units - will you have 12 pupies in army? or will you have 6 of them and 6 succubi? - it would make for more options to choose from.
That would throw balance out of the window. Need proof? See how much better necro is with two ghost stacks in duel mode.
Or maybe, each creature is worth some points which you gain very week. If you upgrade your castle you gain more of them just like with growth of creatures. This way if you have 20 points and the skeleton is worth 1 point and the ghost is worth 1,5 for example it would be more balanced. Bit I guess this would make stuff complicated and it will take time to decide how much each creature is worth.
I'm with you on this, maybe it'd work after a lot of work, this new idea, but it feels like going through a whole lot of trouble to fix something comparatively small, and completely changing the way the game plays at the same time to boot. Might be an interesting mod to try out, but not necessarily as something to balance the game out.
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted February 27, 2012 06:51 AM |
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The way lifedrain works, if hell hounds counterstruck before they were attacked, you'd lose a lot more hell hounds. The entire hell hound creeping strategy is based on them striking after they are attacked and striking after every time they are attacked. If either of these conditions are not met, they will take many more casualties.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted February 27, 2012 07:53 AM |
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Quote:
The way lifedrain works, if hell hounds counterstruck before they were attacked, you'd lose a lot more hell hounds. The entire hell hound creeping strategy is based on them striking after they are attacked and striking after every time they are attacked. If either of these conditions are not met, they will take many more casualties.
To be honest, I rely a lot more on reinforcements and regeneration than life drain. That and having maniacs take the retaliations when possible. And I have to say, up to now it hasn't let me down very much, although I still don't creep as fast as other factions (but then again, who does?).
Regardless, that change would help the doggies out in bigger battles. And as for creeping, maybe change a little bit what you use? I assure you, it works reasonably well. Still, I'd be content with just no-retaliation. Have them deal damage freely, dammit! Heal/protect them, and keep them close to ravagers to draw some attacks away from them... although I hear ravagers are disadvantageous to get somehow. I don't really understand that math part of the first post though. Halp?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 27, 2012 08:50 AM |
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Ravagers will deplete your Ore, and the upgrade adds only 1 creature. For a creature that is supposed to "draw melee damage to them", they have the same problem as the Cerberus - they are just not enough creatures.
I don't think creeping is the problem with Inferno, although there is an Achilles Heel when battling Necro champs. Life Drain doesn't work against undead, and a faction that misses a healer creature would need the Heal spell as well to be able to regenerate a large chunk of damage. Add to that the fact that Regenerate and Life Drain can be dispelled (Elementals, Glories), while Heal simply works immediately, and there is your problem.
With Cerberi, the problem is more a psychological one: there are so very few to begin with, and you don't get many compared with the rest. Also, if you battle something really solid, when that solid hitter hits, it will be Cerberi, everyone's favorite target, and a lucky hit may make a full recovery impossible (Inferno being the only faction that is missing an immediate Healing effect).
For the rest - I mean, an opponent will hit something, and Cerberi ARE the priority target. It makes no sense to make them a unit so good they can shrug off the full and undivided attention of the opposition. Things would look different, if the AI had other target priorities, but with the AI concentrating its efforts, the problem is the missing Heal spell more than any supa-dupa ability of the doggies.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted February 27, 2012 09:17 AM |
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For the dogs: life drain works really well with unlimited retaliation, especially if you have lots of dogs in late game....
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 27, 2012 10:10 AM |
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Quote:
The way lifedrain works, if hell hounds counterstruck before they were attacked, you'd lose a lot more hell hounds. The entire hell hound creeping strategy is based on them striking after they are attacked and striking after every time they are attacked. If either of these conditions are not met, they will take many more casualties.
That's a good point.
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What will happen now?
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted February 27, 2012 10:46 AM |
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Random off the wall thought here..and probably (most likely) way off topic..but to help doggies survivability..how would No Retal and Unlimited retal sound for them. Ie they can attack for no retal, and still replace losses with unlimited retal+life drain. A quick strike to reduce the number of enemies that can attack them without worrying about retaliation...and then damage mitigation through the unlimited+life drain.
That way they could do more then defend + help reduce the number of units that are available to attack them...
Just a random off the wall thought.
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Message received.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 27, 2012 11:16 AM |
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"No enemy retaliation" on any Inferno creature, but especially on the dogs comes with the disadvantage also, that the gated stack won't be able to steal a retaliation.
So to make that viable, "No enemy retliation" should not be a passive ability, but an active one, either with a cooldown time or a number of charges, that would have to be activated like the Kappa jump. Might be given instead of "Voracious".
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