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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 11, 2012 10:37 AM |
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Haven catapult is useless! Just remove it from the game.
A level 10-15 Haven hero will have 45%+ morale. Gate has 9 HP.
Celestial on gate. Then Champions attack gatefor 2 dmg. With this morale Gate is down in turn 3 with 0 catapult help. Where to mention it is likely to happen in turn 2 also with the morale this faction has.
Add to this a lucky catapult hit.... and chances are even greater.
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 11, 2012 11:54 AM |
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@krs:
Haven catapult is no different than other factions catapult. What goes for Haven champion goes for other factions as well - all can damage gate for 2 hits - except cyclops which are even better!
Haven morale is no different than other faction's morale, if you decide to boost it. Stronghold racial is much stronger at this. Add to this Cyclops's bonus wall dmg and you can see which faction is better at destroying walls and gates. Stronghold's catapult is less useful to Stronghold, than Haven's is for Haven (or any other faction for that matter)
Catapults are useless in general - catapult skill is not worth hero point - even mentor is better (hell even economist 3). Catapult would be useful if you could control it, like in previous titles.
Your post makes no sense to me.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 11, 2012 02:35 PM |
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Edited by krs at 14:36, 11 Mar 2012.
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Maybe I am not so good at this game, but I never broke the doors with another faction in turn 2. And I am pretty confident not even turn 3 without at least one catapult shot.
And as I see it it is all because of the high morale you will get with haven. The whole faction revolves around it. Take the the very opposite pole necropolis for comparison, it has none.
Catapult chance of hitting the door is not so great as I've observed it, so how can other races consequently break the door in turn 3?
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 11, 2012 08:53 PM |
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Edited by G0b1in at 20:59, 11 Mar 2012.
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maybe it was luck on your side when you played haven, maybe you didn't prioritize morale with other factions, there can be more factors. Breaking gate at turn 2 is no sure feat, but in turn 3 it can happen. Tho it is true haven has more use of morale than others (Inferno for eg. would prioritize luck due to racial, necro is out, Sanctuary would do better with reatliation boosts or magic spec etc).
Necro has no morale bonuses and this is one of it's weak points, ppl fail to mention when talking of their OP'nes (there are no negative morale effects anymore remember). Note that necro however has 3 flyers (lemasu, vamp, ghost) + 3 shooters (skeleton, lich, spider lady) - meaning almost all creatures can reach behind wall (albeit whit reduced dmg - unless you got artifact).
Haven is also more than decent in this regard (only sister and pretorian will need to brake door to get inside)
Other 3 factions are a bit weaker in this. Stronghold got harpies, upgraded Cyclops, centaur and goblins that can shoot/reach enemy behind walls. All other 3 (jaguar warrior, crusher, dream walker) must brake walls. And those 3 are most damaging (ranged attack, unless you possess the bow, deal little dmg in siege). Weakest faction in siege is imo Sanctuary - which has no flyers! and 2 shooters that are magic dependant.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted March 11, 2012 10:11 PM |
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@G0b1in
Good point. I do not understand why anybody would need to destroy the gate for haven. But you forget about active abilities.
The vestals can forceheal 60% of the units in game to death.
Th dreamwalker can cast a damaging mass slow efect every two turns.
Heaven has 5-6 units
Necro has 6 units
Stronghold has up to 5 units
Inferno has only 3 but can gate
So the only faction that needs Catapult is Sanctuary with only 2 range and no flyers...
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted March 12, 2012 06:55 AM |
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I don't think the castle walls are a problem....when you play multiplayer, you never fight in each other's castles, and when you play against AI and attack them in their castles, you always make sure you they are modest/low to you so no problem....
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httassadar
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 12, 2012 02:06 PM |
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Fighting a high/deadly AI army, it's easier in siege battles than normal battles, even if you are the attacker.
Just summon the elements to block enemy shooters and let them defend, keeping incorporality, while your hero/shooters do their job.
Very hard to keep all the melee units at bay in normal battles.
Quote:
I don't think the castle walls are a problem....when you play multiplayer, you never fight in each other's castles, and when you play against AI and attack them in their castles, you always make sure you they are modest/low to you so no problem....
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 21, 2012 01:23 PM |
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Edited by Miru at 08:23, 22 Aug 2012.
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I would like to bump this thread. Here are the stats for all of the creatures in the game:
Haven
Necropolis
Inferno
Sanctuary
Stronghold
Here is the spreadsheet I used to calculate the averages, if you want to check the way I weighted them or check for mistakes. I forgot to do weighted averaged for hit points, I will do them soon though.
DISCUSS!
Some things that the spread sheet makes readily obvious:
Crossbowmen and Marksmen are low on damage
Marksmen are cheap
Sisters do a ton of damage
Maniacs cost a ton
Cerberus are expensive
Haven upgraded core units are cheap together
Stronghold and inferno core units are expensive together
Spring Spirits are low on damage
Haven unupgraded elites are cheap together
____________
I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 21, 2012 08:11 PM |
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First of all, all links seem to point to Haven creatures.
Secondly, and this is not to be a spoilsport, but the overview looks really messy on my browser - I don't know if it's a browser issue (Firefox 14.0.1) or if this is a correct display, but if the latter is the case, the tables are really hard to get an overview of, the numbers are way too close to the icons and it's all just very crowded. Below is a screanshot of how it appears on my browser.
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What will happen now?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 21, 2012 08:22 PM |
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I have the same problem as Alci, since the first time I heard of that page (1 month or less).
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adriancat
Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
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posted August 21, 2012 08:46 PM |
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My page looks like in Alcibiades' screenshot too. 
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 22, 2012 08:25 AM |
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I fixed the links. Yeah that's just how the page looks right now, but you can still read the numbers.
Does anyone else think it's stupid that the crossbowmen move 6 but the sun riders move 5? I think they should be 5 / 7.
____________
I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 24, 2012 08:21 PM |
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if I made no mistake, the numbers are, for a whole week of growth, first : damage, second : physical defense, third, magical defense.
praetorian 60 570 474
demented 72 410 361
cerberus 75 381 360
ghoul 63 402 284
wanizama 60 433 392
kappa 65 378 387
crusher 70 405 379
goblin 72 435 426
harpy 77 390 422
pearl priestess 55 255 281
skeleton 70 362 346
spectre 60 311 219
lilim 66 314 297
vestal 66 255 306
marksman 48 369 343
sun crusader 75 779 617
lacerator 97.5 694 465
ravager 97.5 735 676
vampire 75 754 669
lamasu 112 862 862
mizu kami 69 756 852
kensei 102.5 682 662
dreamreaver 102 779 870
panther warrior 90 608 584
centaur 64 390 416
yuki onna 60 389 436
archlich 90 486 486
breeder mother 105 625 662
radiant glory 70 500 521
griffin 70 522 522
seraph 108 1512 1300
pit lord 123 1137 1036
fate weaver 112 1277 1176
fate weaver 121 1053 1034
kirin 171 1558 1622
cyclop 122 1304 1258
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted August 24, 2012 08:28 PM |
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I would love to see data as to what upgrades give most benefit, which units gain most. I did that at early stage, but the stats have changed alot. Should do some new calculations...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 24, 2012 08:39 PM |
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There are more changes to come as well.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 25, 2012 11:37 AM |
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Quote:
if I made no mistake, the numbers are, for a whole week of growth, first : damage, second : physical defense, third, magical defense.
[numbers numbers numbers]
Defense and Magical Defense are constant regardless of stack size. You don't multiply them by the week growth.
@Minion
I have a vague intention of eventually calculating what upgrades benefits the most at some point, but not for a long time. Most of the upgrades add an ability and its hard to quantify how much that helps. There are a lot of things which I loosely intend to calculate, but don't expect them for a long time.
@Elvin
Many things can be calculated such that you plug in the new numbers and they recalculate. Point in case, my week growth averages spreadsheet. It took me seconds to recalculate all of them when I realized I had put in the wrong damage for Succubi.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 25, 2012 02:35 PM |
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actually the formula is HPs x growth / (1 - defense percentage)
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 25, 2012 02:44 PM |
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Well I misunderstood what you mean because you used the word Defense, when that isn't really what you meant. Regardless I already have HP * growth / avg Growth in the spreadsheet, which is a normalized hit points value.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 25, 2012 05:04 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 17:07, 25 Aug 2012.
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but for example, your table puts dreamreavers over putrid lamasus in total stamina, and it's the contrary in mine. I think I also took in account abilities such as dead flesh or immateriel. I see we have a big difference for the mizu-kami for example
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 25, 2012 07:51 PM |
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That was just hitpoints. Because defense is not a linear function, the difference in effective stamina depends on your heroes defense. If you assume your hero has 10, 20 , 30 defense you will see your effective staminas go all weird. Also I didn't take into account any abilities, you took into account some abilities. There is no perfect way to simplify into one number, and so I prefer to preserve information rather than combine defense and hitpoints.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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