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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 01:13 PM |
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Edited by G0b1in at 13:17, 02 Mar 2012.
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well yes i agree gaining xp from friendly creatures is another option to consider certainly - you could even have ability that raises your creature growth rate when enough casaulties were sustained - making you weak early on but powerhouse late in game 
I mearley gave an example i taught up on the fly... as i was typing - point was - healing is not the only solution out there. That does not mean heling is wrong, but imo every faction has to have it's onw thing to feel unique.
now you could have ability that: when one or more dogs die, neighbouring inferno stacks gets luck bonus - would mean shooting cerebrii that stand in middle of your army, could prove to be a bad idea, and if left unchecked the dogs could also mess you up - it could even work on gated stacks - meaning gating dogs is more desirable 
bottom line is there has to be synergy between creatures, for this to work, otherwise a faction just feels weak
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 02, 2012 01:20 PM |
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Quote:
No, the turning argument for me was not the Gating part, but the fact that without Unlimited Retaliation, they won't be able to use Life Drain effectively, which would be one of the important life savers for Inferno as I understand it. Plus, the (limited) size of battlefield and lower range in Initiative difference makes hit-and-run hard to execute. Thirdly, having only one retaliation will make it easier to soak up that retaliation with just one stack and then focus all power on the Cerberi after that to take them out completely.
The point was that No Retaliation might in fact no longer be the great life saver that it was in previous games. I can't say whether it is true or not, but I do myself find it some relevant points to take into consideration. I used to favor the No Retaliation approach myself, but I'm no longer sure that is the best solution.
I don't see how this is a "turning point" given that at the moment Life Drain doesn't help the dogs against anything which is not a neutral stack. In a player vs. player battle it is nigh useless for them because your regular human opponent will not attack them with stacks that conveniently deal low damage so the Cerberi don't suffer too great casualties but regain some of their numbers back - he will strike them with heavy damage dealers and will cripple them to the extent of making the retaliation weak at best. The second retaliation - if they survive to make one - will be even weaker, nothing to "soak" here. So no, I disagree that this changes anything.
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 02:52 PM |
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I think getting xp for friendly losses is terrible.
This way you get rewarded by doing a bad job for creeping or you just suicide your necro army get tonns of exp and buy the mback the next day.
Another thing that can be said for inferno lacking Synergy is that it is very easily exploited by gating.
Please tell me what is wrong with allowing a portion of left over gated units substarted from the losses tho?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 02, 2012 02:58 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
No, the turning argument for me was not the Gating part, but the fact that without Unlimited Retaliation, they won't be able to use Life Drain effectively, which would be one of the important life savers for Inferno as I understand it. Plus, the (limited) size of battlefield and lower range in Initiative difference makes hit-and-run hard to execute. Thirdly, having only one retaliation will make it easier to soak up that retaliation with just one stack and then focus all power on the Cerberi after that to take them out completely.
The point was that No Retaliation might in fact no longer be the great life saver that it was in previous games. I can't say whether it is true or not, but I do myself find it some relevant points to take into consideration. I used to favor the No Retaliation approach myself, but I'm no longer sure that is the best solution.
I don't see how this is a "turning point" given that at the moment Life Drain doesn't help the dogs against anything which is not a neutral stack. In a player vs. player battle it is nigh useless for them because your regular human opponent will not attack them with stacks that conveniently deal low damage so the Cerberi don't suffer too great casualties but regain some of their numbers back - he will strike them with heavy damage dealers and will cripple them to the extent of making the retaliation weak at best. The second retaliation - if they survive to make one - will be even weaker, nothing to "soak" here. So no, I disagree that this changes anything.
However, player vs. player encounters are not those you have most of, particularly not during creeping stage. Now I openly admit that my experience with this game is not big so I speak based only on what I read from others, but if losses during creaping is an issue (and I got the impression it was) clearly Life Drain can help with that.
Anyway, I wasn't trying to say that I knew the only answer, my point was just that things are not as clearcut as just giving them No Retaliation and all problems go away.
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What will happen now?
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 03:37 PM |
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I absolutely love the JJ idea of exp for lost troops. It will need maybe too much work though to make as competetive as healing..
As of now they can't survive without buffs of various kinds - so giving them something like "buffing affinity" which makes spells 50% cheaper to cast on Cerberi. And/or they could be linked to Breeders in a way that breeders also buff the Ceberi numbers at the start of battle (20%). At least there would be some synergy to the faction then (and you would still have to upgrade the crappy Breeders, lol)
Just hoping for pretty much anything, the +2 growth is not at all bad idea either, because it increases Life drain too as they would do more damage.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 03:52 PM |
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well ... from my experience so far:
during creeping stage yes - life drain certainly helps (who said it dosen't?) - however there's simply no way in exploiting unlimited retaliation during this fights. they are usualy prety quick - and rarely (if ever) will one encounter all seven stacks (usualy it's 2 - 3, 4 being a lot), whit exception of arena (in which you get no losses anyway). Now unless you sacrafice your dog and send him in middle of oponent's army, he will usualy retaliate once per turn - like normal (if at all) - dogs can't preserve their numbers by standing there and retaliating (would be cool but it dosen't work). So yeah i think No enemy retaliation would be better here instead.
On player vs player fights - Zenofex pretty much explained - they die in one or two hits (or become very weak at the least). So again atleast in my mind no retaliation prevails over unlimited one.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 03:57 PM |
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Quote:
well yes i agree gaining xp from friendly creatures is another option to consider certainly - you could even have ability that raises your creature growth rate when enough casaulties were sustained - making you weak early on but powerhouse late in game
Indeed. This could work somewhat like the Blood Maiden/Minotaur mechanics in H5 for increasing growth...
It could also be a skill, something like
Famous for Slaughter
a skill, that would be quite attractive for Orks and Demons only (which might be the case for XP for losses as well) - which does point again to the lack of faction-specific skills.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 02, 2012 11:17 PM |
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Again on luck and morale. I really like the simple +1 level +1 point and 1 point = 1% system. It is so simple to keep track of. So I am in favor of alternative ways to boost morale and luck.
1) Make morale more useful for creatures with abilities. It started from the folowing scenario. With the current system.... Sisters get morale. If I really need to heal (there goes my first action) and now you are crippled. You cannot attack that far, you will do 1/2 damage and you cannot run away that far.
Make Morale work in such a way that I could use either actions for its activated ability. If I choose to use it after I attack... just half the "power" of my spell. (Since many spells do take into account creatures attack it is automatically resolved).
2) Hero uses spell, gets morale nothing happens. Let him hit another time... why not?
LUCK.
Again with abilities and spells casted by hero. Hero gets lucky and nothing happens!
Make luck work in such a way that when luck is not used (because he used a spell or whatever) the hero performs a 100% lucky strike next turn. (Alternative/ immediately get a free move to do your lucky strike)
(I am not talking about "warlock luck" here. I am only talking about the cases where luck triggers and nothing happens.)
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted March 05, 2012 08:03 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
There's no point even comparing Praetorian dmg x growth with Cerebri because Praetorian dmg can still be halved for all I care and I would still use them because of the primary function of taking damage away from other adjacent allies with extra 20% reduction.
But this is not about Praetorians doing too much damage, it's about Cerberi doing too little. And comparing the dmg/week of a super defense unit with a super charging unit and seeing the difference is almost nonexistent is exactly how you can conclude something is amiss.
Heck I could even say just charge with Praetorians because they do same damage as Cerberi and don't die as quick (joke ofc).
sorry for late reply to something at end of p17/beginning of p18, but:
@seingeist & einomida: Perhaps it's because English may be not be your native language or age or it's not easy to make implied sentences with text only with a tongue smiley:- Do you get the impression yet that I don't care for tables comparing direct stats like dmg x growth only?  [because you have to take the whole game thing including specials, racials etc]
My point is to make strong robust arguments supporting your case. If you include in your main argument by comparing Praetorian dmg, then you leave yourself open to the ridiculously funny counter-argument that reducing/halving Praetorian dmg may make Cerebrii seem ok? You already mentioned other creature comparisons are better - using them makes the argument stronger & more robust.
hehe, overgrown discussion about luck, followed by overgrown about doggies...and then even mentioning xp for casualties? *facepalm*
btw I agree with the army synergy thing mentioned in OP.
Would actually be very interesting to know the developers thoughts on all this.
Just another wild idea without much detailed thought: Why not make gated stacks not disappear when original stack dies? The demonic troops are supposed to be more fragile & weaker but make up for the diference with gating. [at least it seemed that way in H5TotE]
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 05, 2012 10:26 AM |
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Edited by G0b1in at 10:36, 05 Mar 2012.
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Quote:
Just another wild idea without much detailed thought: Why not make gated stacks not disappear when original stack dies? The demonic troops are supposed to be more fragile & weaker but make up for the diference with gating. [at least it seemed that way in H5TotE]
Well that would be one way, but what if whole stack didn't die, but you lost like 98 out of 100 dogs - that wouldn't be much of a help imo Now if instead they would make gated stack partialy (or even fully) replace dead demons after combat ie. original and gated stacks would "merge" at end of battle, but their number could not exceed the original stack's number. (there's already similar hero skill in game but can't remember which exactly - think it's reinforcements ) that would imo work
This would make gating feel to much like "healing in advance" - but imo it's OK - point is like i said in earlier post - one unit can't make whole faction weak - imo gating is the thing that's "too week" at inferno. fact is luck dosen't triger much in earlier - creeping stages, and even later on when luck triggers a lot you wont have your faction power available in first or even in second turns of combat, unlike heaven or necro. Now because of this i still stand with my suggestion that inferno could use some mechanic to trigger luck (like when dogs die, those around it would get lucky strikes)
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted March 05, 2012 10:38 AM |
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Quote:
...Well that would mean you could have more army after battle than at the begining...
I take it you didn't play H5? The gated stacks disappear after the battle, but they don't disappear as soon as original stack gets killed during battle (so it's really more helpful for the big battles)...and yep H6 gating is not that good during early creeping due to the problematic trigger mechanism (less useful than H5 gating for sure)
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 05, 2012 10:43 AM |
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Not disappearing gated stacks could actually solve a few problems but I fear that the balancing gurus will think that it will be too much and will nerf Gating in general if something like that is implemented. For some unexplainable reason, Gating seems to be considered a very powerful racial while in fact it's pretty mediocre at the moment.
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 05, 2012 01:28 PM |
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@Skyprimus
Sorry it was my bad, I didn't read your post well enough first time around and edited post just as you were typing yours i guess (i taught you suggested all - gated and original - creatures would stay in army after battle) - but i read it wrong - again i apologise for the confusion
and yeah - i know how was in H5 quite good actualy as it's my favourite heroes game, however in H6 i only played 2 games with Inferno so far (i didn't do campains yet) - they were long tho, so i tested a few aspects but not nearly all possibilities.
that said i agree with you and Zenofex - non dissapearing gated stacks would defenitley help - simply put Inferno racial as it currently stands isn't as powerfull as other racials. It's most annoying when luck triggers and you open gate next to enemy archers, only to find gate destroyed soon after (that happened to me 1-st game, when i didn't know how in H6 gating will work - i assumed it's H5 style) - if anything i feel Inferno racial should trigger more than others, and faster at start just coz of this
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted March 05, 2012 04:18 PM |
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So to sum up ladies & gents,
- Luck bad (coupled with Inferno ability bad)
- Doggies weak
- Necro ability overpowered
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 05, 2012 05:17 PM |
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Quote:
sorry for late reply to something at end of p17/beginning of p18, but:
@seingeist & einomida: Perhaps it's because English may be not be your native language or age or it's not easy to make implied sentences with text only with a tongue smiley:- Do you get the impression yet that I don't care for tables comparing direct stats like dmg x growth only? [because you have to take the whole game thing including specials, racials etc]
My point is to make strong robust arguments supporting your case. If you include in your main argument by comparing Praetorian dmg, then you leave yourself open to the ridiculously funny counter-argument that reducing/halving Praetorian dmg may make Cerebrii seem ok? You already mentioned other creature comparisons are better - using them makes the argument stronger
You're absolutely right; my long and detailed argument consisting of carefully data-based claims to make a fairly straightforward point was simply not robust enough.
What I needed was more tongue smileys.
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einomida
Known Hero
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posted March 05, 2012 07:49 PM |
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Quote:
SKPRIMUS talks
As much as I'd want to convert you I'll simply leave it at that and say... hmmm... that we just disagree.
Although - a big no no for XP upon death from me as well, a concept I already briefly mentioned in another post.
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted March 06, 2012 10:21 AM |
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i think that dogs are just part of a problem, the other are breeders... they are just so mediocre that it makes me cry.
wish that proliferation would be active skill that you could use on any of your stacks, then they would not be as useless as they are now.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 06, 2012 04:50 PM |
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To make luck more valuable put it into some creature abilities. Abilities like: "Whenever creature deals damage something could trigger" that trigger should depend on luck.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted March 07, 2012 06:51 AM |
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Quote:
To make luck more valuable put it into some creature abilities. Abilities like: "Whenever creature deals damage something could trigger" that trigger should depend on luck.
You refering to Soldier's luck from H5.....
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 07, 2012 10:37 AM |
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Something like that. I was referring to actual creature abilities implementation. Some of them should have parts depending on luck. But I guess the whole idea in Heroes 6 was to remove luck from such things. On the other hand it had turned that luck is not such a great primary skill to have and needs to be improved...
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