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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 02, 2012 12:02 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 00:05, 02 Feb 2012.
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OK, let me clarify as my posts are obviously too "strange" not just for you:
1. Unlimited Retaliation is an excellent tool on a creature which has enough durability to keep doing good damage after its first retaliation. Otherwise the ability is practically useless.
2. Thus this creature or its stack has to be durable - either good health + defense combo; or high health or defense; or high growth.
3. Thus if the creature is not durable, it will suffer too high losses and the damage from the second retaliation - if there are any survivors for a second retaliation that is - will be insignificant. At this point it's 90% irrelevant if the creature has Unlimited Retaliation or No Retaliation - in the first case it will deal too low damage, in the second it will deal no damage.
In other words - Unlimited Retaliation makes sense for Griffins or Kenseis which will not go down after 1-2 attacks and will be able to return quite some damage. It makes NO sense for Hell Hounds/Cerberi which will be crippled after the first attack of a capable melee combatant. No Retaliation has no such problems but has many advantages that a fragile damage-dealer can make use of.
Any questions?
Edit: Another reminder that I'm talking about fights against human opponents all the time. Balance against the AI does not concern me.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted February 02, 2012 12:09 AM |
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I would like to note that Inferno does fast combats. They intend to kill the enemy with their high damage quickly enough that when the enemy strikes back they are weakend enough that the low inferno hp isn't so bad. They do not benefit from drawn out combats like Necro. Perhaps an all around initiative boost would make their strategy more viable.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 02, 2012 12:36 AM |
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Quote:
OK, let me clarify as my posts are obviously too "strange" not just for you:
1. Unlimited Retaliation is an excellent tool on a creature which has enough durability to keep doing good damage after its first retaliation. Otherwise the ability is practically useless.
2. Thus this creature or its stack has to be durable - either good health + defense combo; or high health or defense; or high growth.
3. Thus if the creature is not durable, it will suffer too high losses and the damage from the second retaliation - if there are any survivors for a second retaliation that is - will be insignificant. At this point it's 90% irrelevant if the creature has Unlimited Retaliation or No Retaliation - in the first case it will deal too low damage, in the second it will deal no damage.
In other words - Unlimited Retaliation makes sense for Griffins or Kenseis which will not go down after 1-2 attacks and will be able to return quite some damage. It makes NO sense for Hell Hounds/Cerberi which will be crippled after the first attack of a capable melee combatant. No Retaliation has no such problems but has many advantages that a fragile damage-dealer can make use of.
Any questions?
Edit: Another reminder that I'm talking about fights against human opponents all the time. Balance against the AI does not concern me.
Yes, I have questions.
How exactly does No Retaliation solve the survivability/durability issue of the dogs?
It amounts to precisely one(1) evaded retaliatory attack per round.
Of course, the problem with the hounds is not that they are hit with a single retaliation per round. It's that they are hit by the entire enemy army every chance they get because they have top priority. This situation does not change with No Retaliation. The enemy hero still attacks or lightning bolts the stack before it moves, the enemy archers still target them before they arrive, and the rest of the enemy stacks still attack the dogs at the front lines.
No Retaliation would be even more enticing to the human opponent than Unlimited Retaliation, because he knows he can (and should, given that he wishes to maximize his impact against his opponent's damage potential) attack the dogs with his more offensive-but-fragile melee units once his tank soaks up the single retaliation.
Your point about the durability of an Unlim. Retal. unit is obviously well-taken, which is why I explicitly dealt with it in my prior post. The stack of dogs needs to be fairly large in order to climb over the threshold of doing enough damage to heal its losses with Life Drain. Better growth would help with this quite a bit.
There are indeed situations in which No Retal. would provide very tangible benefits that Unlim. Retal. would not; I'm not disputing that. E.g. if your No Retal. dogs waited on the back lines, they could soften up a fast approaching enemy for another melee unit to cripple or finish off.
However, it would not solve the main survivability problem of the dogs that so many here complain about. They would still drop like flies, and at the expense of an ability (Unlim. Retal.) that I find far more useful under the right conditions (large stack, Life Drain, and ideally Flawless Assault).
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seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 02, 2012 12:58 AM |
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Quote:
I would like to note that Inferno does fast combats. They intend to kill the enemy with their high damage quickly enough that when the enemy strikes back they are weakend enough that the low inferno hp isn't so bad. They do not benefit from drawn out combats like Necro. Perhaps an all around initiative boost would make their strategy more viable.
Certainly, but they already occupy a decent spot on that list. They are bested only by the extremely swift Sanctuary, but claim the second-best overall initiative, coupled with pretty solid movement (which the Sanctuary lacks) - very similar to Stronghold.
Sum Total Upgraded Unit Initiative:
Haven: 260
Inferno: 305
Necropolis: 250
Sanctuary: 340
Stronghold: 300
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KaynaCrous
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 02, 2012 02:42 AM |
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After playing hundreds of duels, I can say that this game is more balanced than I first thought ( maybe my first thoughts were before the crucial patch 1.2? lol ) .
I disagree with the blazing glories dispelling so much ( because it simply makes many strategies worthless, and that s just bad from a strategy game point of view ), but otherwise, there s often a way to win. Expecially if you re playing without dynasty bonuses, since you can swap the hero you choose at the start early ( from might to magic or magic to might with a tavern at the first round ) without losing much beside the hero specialisation for a more limited choice.
All mights, beside stronghold, are countered well with another might that is tears.
All might blood are good against everything. Excell? perhaps not, but a very tight blood might can beat most casters, if played correctly ( by doing as much damage as possible before the spells starts pouring in, with inner fire mass or haste mass )
All magic tears are good in end game. Some magic tears are good everytime, everywhere. Magic blood are good in small maps.
Aside from the small maps that are really, but I mean really, the domain of the magic heroes, the game is very well balanced.
Even inferno. its my favourite race. let me tell you, they re much better than people know. You just gotta know how.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted February 02, 2012 07:18 AM |
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They are playable, no doubt, and you could definitely overcome their stats and beat someone playing Necro. But you are hindered by their stats, which are mathematically low. It's fine to play Inferno vs computers, because then it's just hard mode. We want it to be totally balanced so that all races are viable in competitive play, and that there isn't one good cheese strategy which everyone subscribes too.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 02, 2012 09:44 AM |
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There is one good cheese strategy.
Anyway. For creeping - and cores are for creeping mostly - Unlimited Retaliation is better. The reason for this is, that NO Retaliation needs you to attack, so you can't defend. Paradoxically, though, DEFENDIND, is superior because it gives you 20% more Resistance.
In a "real" battle (against a comparable force), No Retaliation sucks as well, because to make use of it you must hit something, and fast. You are missing a lot for that. The Furies are a unit with No Enemy Retaliation that is pretty good for it. The Dogs are not. It's mainly a sacrifice anyway, the way they are now.
Sure, IF the Dogs would be a tad faster, and IF they had No Retaliation, you might slip them up front and cast Stand Your Ground on them, for example. But there are just too many "Ifs" involved. The basic problem is the fact that they do not come with enough mass to withstand anything.
Another tactical option would be the Ravagers IF they were up to speed and IF it made sense to grade them up - you could place them side by side, to somehat guard the dogs, but, there are the IFs again.
Which is just part of the bigger problem. Someone said, the Inferno is about fast battling. That may be the case against the AI or in campaign, but in real life it's not, because it just misses oomph and needs as many gated stacks as possible - for which it needs to hit the opponent.
Also, bringing in gated stacks HAVE BEEN a massive advantage once. With Counterstrike II being a mandatory skill, a gated stack is suddenly not as good anymore as the Necro ability or as the simple Reinforecement skill.
I'm sure you could write a pretty long paper about it, but Inferno racial is sstrong only in theory - the reason for this is simple: it takes a turn delay for the gated stack to come, and as an opponent you solve the problem of the gated stacks by simply attacking the respective parent stack.
That is, THE OPPONENT has an influence on how effective the Inferno racial is, and you cannot do anything against it.
That has consequences for Inferno as well. While others simply hit a button and reap immediate advantages, Inferno must guard the parent stack of the gated.
Also Inferno must fill the racial first, and that they can do by hitting only.
The bottom line is, that IN COMPARISON WITH THE OTHERS the Inferno is a BROKEN faction.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 02, 2012 10:32 AM |
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Quote:
Yes, I have questions.
How exactly does No Retaliation solve the survivability/durability issue of the dogs?
It's rather obvious but I suppose you had to ask - no damage from retaliations. Right now the dogs are kamikazes - they strike once, the retaliation kills a large number of them and then some enemy stack finishes them off. The opponent can gang-rape them just as well as he would if they have No Retaliation but with the difference that No Retaliation will spare you the "kill yourself" part. And what's that argument anyway - most cores will go down quickly if the opponent focuses fire on them, the dogs will just go down faster than the rest.
Quote:
The reason for this is, that NO Retaliation needs you to attack, so you can't defend.
Yeah, that's right, defend with your fragile damage-dealer, that's the best way to use it. 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 02, 2012 11:09 AM |
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We are talking about creeping. And, yes, defending IS the best action with a unit like that, whether you like that or not.
And since you don't seem to dig that I'm getting the idea now how the "lose so many Hounds on the way" misconception comes from.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 02, 2012 11:43 AM |
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Are you people even reading my posts? The part where I'm saying that the fights against the AI do not concern me (although I'm pretty certain that No Retaliation will make the dogs better creepers - refer to the Heroes III Cerberi)? Human opponents, anyone?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 02, 2012 11:50 AM |
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Are you even knowing how the game is played?
I, at least, didn't know that neutral stacks are led by the opposing human player now. You can correct me, if I'm wrong, but last time I played, MOST of the game was against the AI, although I was playing MP.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted February 02, 2012 11:54 AM |
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I agree with happyjoker about the dogs are better with unlimited retaliation.
They also have eye of gluttony which goes hand-in-hand with unlimted retaliations.
Also, life drain is most important when you have stacks with the unlimited retaliation ability.....
Yes, keep the unlimited retal and increase their troop count weekly....
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 02, 2012 12:13 PM |
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Quote:
Are you even knowing how the game is played?
I, at least, didn't know that neutral stacks are led by the opposing human player now. You can correct me, if I'm wrong, but last time I played, MOST of the game was against the AI, although I was playing MP.
This is complete nonsense, you don't win the game against the neutrals, you win it against the human opponent and your precious Unlimited Retaliation is useless against him/her. Go play King's Bounty - you only deal with creeping there anyway and you arguments will have some weight.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted February 02, 2012 12:50 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Are you even knowing how the game is played?
I, at least, didn't know that neutral stacks are led by the opposing human player now. You can correct me, if I'm wrong, but last time I played, MOST of the game was against the AI, although I was playing MP.
This is complete nonsense, you don't win the game against the neutrals, you win it against the human opponent and your precious Unlimited Retaliation is useless against him/her. Go play King's Bounty - you only deal with creeping there anyway and you arguments will have some weight.
It's not nonsense, you only face the human opponent once right at the end, whereas you go through millions of fights with the AI before then so majority of the game is against AI even if it's multiplayer....
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 02, 2012 12:54 PM |
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Quote:
This is complete nonsense...
Yes, thanks, very eloquent, and a fine point.
IF you would win or lose the game exclusively in battle against the human opponent, you wouldn't need to play maps, but could just as well play a duel right away. Sounds reasonable?
Ah, wait, wrong question.
Let me phrase it this way. You sound like a duel player.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 02, 2012 01:37 PM |
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Let me rephrase so you can't twist the meaning to suit your needs - you play the map flawlessly, you lose 0 dogs in the process, you creep fine and you face the human opponent. Then he/she kills the dogs in 2 strikes. Sapienti sat.
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted February 02, 2012 02:21 PM |
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Quote:
Let me rephrase so you can't twist the meaning to suit your needs - you play the map flawlessly, you lose 0 dogs in the process, you creep fine and you face the human opponent. Then he/she kills the dogs in 2 strikes. Sapienti sat.
Well, for the first part of that, Unlimited Counter Attacks would have helped and No Retaliation would not have. For the second, Unlimited Counter Attacks would help exactly as much as No Retaliation.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 02, 2012 02:30 PM |
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Claiming that No Retaliation doesn't help for creeping shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. As for the final battle - I'll repeat for the last time - No Retaliation will allow you to attack and deal that damage which is the only good stat that the dogs have without getting their stack halved by the retaliation. That - among other things - will make their first retaliation much more powerful than it would be otherwise. Unlimited Retaliation DOES. NOT. HELP. you when the stack is dead or nearly dead. I can't say it any simpler so this will be my last post with clarifications on the matter. Get some practice.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 02, 2012 02:44 PM |
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I'm pretty sure that it's not hobo who has no idea what he's talking about.
With that in mind, the continuation of this discussion makes no sense. Yet again.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 02, 2012 03:04 PM |
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I think I suggested a while to make a few games to see how will you fare against me. So how about this or you will keep up with the hollow theories? I'm getting really tired of "discussing" obvious things with the wall so a little empiricism should resolve the situation.
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This thread is pages long: 
