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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted January 24, 2012 09:00 PM |
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I think rather than change the number of destiny and leadership points, they should just buff them. So destiny could perhaps raise crit chance by 1.5% instead of .5% per level. The number of points people are getting from levels and artifacts are already well balanced, the effects are what need to change.
I would further add the effects of the racials are not equal. For Haven their racial is damn near useless, because when you make one stack invincible the enemy just attacks a different stack instead. It can make them not attack your archers or healers (but you already have praetorians for that), or in like the first turn when they are out of range from all but one unit you can make it so they can't attack that turn. It has a few other tactical uses (like letting marksmen shoot through a stack and not friendly fire), but is not much help. The inferno and necro racials, on the contrary, are great because they allow you to easily creep without loosing units.
The fact that Necros get so much more of a boost from upgrading creature growth is a bit op. The fact that their stats and racials are so much better is not. Necro has always had better racials and more units than any other town, they just had substantially weaker units to compensate. The skeleton archers and Lamasu are already resonably weak, but most of the other Necro units need nerfs.
I haven't played inferno enough to really judge them, but if someone said they just need an overall 20% damage boost or something like that I would believe it. I know they are dreadfully low on hp and defense, but that is part of their flavor.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted January 24, 2012 09:37 PM |
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Edited by Miru at 04:38, 25 Jan 2012.
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Might gets worse with more points, and Destiny is "flat" (it gets better the same amount with each point).
Yes, when you have 100 might points +1 might is +7%. But that 7% is not multiplied by your previous attack points, it is added. Going from +200% to +210% is not a 10% gain, it's more like a 5% gain. At 100 attack you do 565.85% and at 101 attack you do 572.78, 7 percentage points more, but really only 1.2% more. If each point of attack multiplied by some percent (e.g. each point raises damage by 1%) then it would grow as e^x. But the attack bonuses from each point are not multiplied, they are added. It grows at x^2.5, substantially less than e^x, meaning each point is actually helping a little less than the previous one.
Destiny is really quite simple though. It's +.5% damage each level. Because it multiples attack it scales well at high levels. At first Might is better than Destiny, but at some point attack drops off and destiny becomes better. This point, however is well above 100, and I don't think destiny is defined above 100 (more than 100% chance to crit??). In theory Destiny would eventually become better than Might. In practice it is 5 to 3 times worse.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 25, 2012 09:15 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Try to keep up. Destiny's Chosen III requires and subsumes I and II. So buying Destiny's Chosen III costs 3 skill points and gives you 7 Destiny. There are other ways to look at it, but that is the way that Double Decker was talking about it, so that's the way I analyzed it.
I'm not going to argue against that - but of course, if you are eligible to pick 3 tier 3 skills, you should have something better to pick than Destiny I-III, especially when you seemingly don't expect much of a result.
So I understood his post, that after picking Destiny III (not I-III, he felt that his luck had increased quite a bit.
I mean, who'd do that?
Anyway. No reason for further argument.
Woah! Take it easy....just wanted to share my experience. I had demonlord with no Destiny and my luck was average....then I had 3 ability points and decided what the heck go for this broken Destiny and took Destiny I, II and III and noticed a significant increase in occurences of luck in battles (ie. from having no Destiny skills to all 3 in one go). not lying, so explain this.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2012 09:30 AM |
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Hobo did.
If you can take all three Destiny skills your hero must be level 15 at least, at which time your Inferno hero has roundabout 5 Destiny points already from regular level-up. Creatures have innate Destiny values as well. Only both Breeder types come with as few as 6, the rest of the Inferno creatures has significantly higher values, especially Demented and Lacerators who have 12.
Add to that the 7 points from the Destiny skills, and your Luck value is between 20 and 25 for your Inferno creatures, artifacts and Blind Maiden visit not counted.
Depending on the number of attacks each round this should give you something like between at least 2 and possibly even 4 Luck triggers each round on a crowded BF.
Add gated stacks, which increase the number of stacks and attacks, and suddenly it may seem to trigger fairly often.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2012 10:02 AM |
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Okay, let me add something to the general Luck/Moral problem.
I mentioned this for two reasons, mainly.
1) Destiny is the one and only factor in influencing the availability of Inferno's racial, which means that many Luck triggers are clearly in the Interest of Inferno that has a couple of disadvantages over the others. One of this disadvantages is, that in a complete army Inferno has only 3 stacks to use the racial on on lowest setting (Cores). So there is no choice like with others, whether to use it for lower effect or wait - once all cores have gated, you must either wait for a higher racial value (or "hope" for a gated core stack being destroyed).
So that means, because a smoothly working racial is clearly an advantage for Inferno, you need to get Destiny up.
Which - strangely - isn't possible, or at least not in any meaningful way. Heroes gain Destiny automatically when they level-up, and you can picck Destiny's Chosen.
Additionally, there is the must-have skill (Mass) Heroism, adding a couple of Luck points.
That's it. No class ability giving more Destiny to Inferno (or less to anyone else).
In light of Inferno's need to have Destiny (and likewise a method to descrease opponent's luck), the question how good Destiny is compared to other things becomes relevant, and - as was amply shown - it's NOT.
2) MORAL
Moral is important with a view on Necropolis and also Haven, the first because they don't have any (which is compensated with other things), and the latter because their racial PARTLY depends on it and they have a lot of it.
Generally, Moral seems to be better than Destiny, because it offers a wide variety of additional benefits, not the least of which would be the fact that a 2nd move for the same creature will give the hero a chance to act, AFTER the moral-triggered unit has had its full move - this may for example allow to trigger the racial that JUST FILLED, due to the action of the moral-triggered unit. Also, SOME effects can be used doubly, namely, Pressed Attack and Regeneration, while the normal creature abilities cannot.
While it seems difficult to quantify and measure this, in my opinion, since Moral has more consequences the player has a chance to make good tactical use of (the trigger cannot be planned, but the effect can), Moral seems to be better than Destiny, but not just as good as the rest. (That's the main reason I suggest the 3/2/1 rating Destiny/Moral/Rest).
In light of this, since Haven racial is fuelled not only by moral and Haven heroes have a lot of it, the thing with Moral is more, that Necro heroes' and creatures' lack of moral is more of an advantage than a disadvantage since they are somewhat overcompensated, while Haven heroes are a bit weakened here (but have of course other advantages).
That's the gist of it.
EDIT: The main point isn't to suggest the 3/2/1 rating, it's only, that something is decidedly wrong.
Ample testing might provide something like 2.5/1.5/1 would be enough (meaning that destiny would give 3 and 2 points alternating and moral 2 points every other moral level-up).
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 25, 2012 01:18 PM |
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Quote:
That's it. No class ability giving more Destiny to Inferno (or less to anyone else).
Actually, there seems to be some sort of inherent dilemma here: It might actually work in Inferno's disfavor to give them a skill that decreases enemy Luck.
Think for instance about 'Dead Man's Luck' from H5 that gave a -1 Luck penalty to enemy units. This of course is nice, but the problem is that for all units with none-zero Luck, reducing their Luck by 1 will reduce the likeliness that any Luck even triggers with this creature - positive is less likely for obvious reasons, and negative luck can't trigger when Luck is greather than 0.
Since Inferno gauge fills when any positive Luck or negative enemy Luck triggers, applying a negative modifier on enemy Luck will actually decrease the rate with which the gauge fills for all situations other than that where the decrease is sufficient to give a negative Luck. An since creatures already have an inherent positive Luck score plus gets Hero modifier and possibly skill/artifact modifiers, that would seem unlikely to happen - unless the decrease is very large, which would itself present a balance problem.
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What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2012 01:26 PM |
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That's actually the general problem with the way this is done that gives creatures an inherent level of luck already, which makes bad luck basically impossible.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 25, 2012 02:01 PM |
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Interestingly, there is a logical consequence of this which is very interesting and opens some new possibilities:
One should keep positive Luck/Morale and negative Luck/Morale modifiers as separate counts.
What I mean by this is the following: Imagine I have a positive Luck modifier of +15 % and a negative Luck modifier of -10 %. Let's for simplicity imagine I'm fighting an enemy with the same modifiers.
The positive modifiers applies to my own troops, whereas the negative applies to enemy troops, but they are not additive. What this means is that there is a 15 % chance that positive Luck triggers on an attack, but there is also a 10 % chance that negative Luck triggers. In the case where both triggers, they negate each other. The two modifiers are not added for a total 5 % chance of Luck triggering (which is how it was in the old days).
This would make Luck/Morale system more diverse, because you could have both positive and negative Luck trigger under the same circumstances, depending on your, well, luck. In the case above, there would be on each of my attacks:
- 15 % chance for positive Luck (from my positive Luck modifier)
- 10 % chance for negative Luck (from his negative Luck modifier)
- 1.5 % chance for both triggering (no effect, but could fill gauges)
- 73.5 % chance that no Luck triggers at all.
This would open up for intersting options like skills to increase your negative Luck/Morale modifier (the latter would be nice for Necropolis).
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What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2012 02:47 PM |
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The probablities are not quite right. The chances that nothing at all happens are 18/20*17/20 = 306/400 or 76.5%. The chances that AT LEAST Luck happens is 15%; the chance that AT least bad Luck happens is 10%, the chances that BOTH happen are 1.5%
Anyway, the same would have to happen for moral.
I agree that on first look this might serve the system well, albeit it would make everything a lot more complex.
I don't think, that is strictly necessary. The same purpose could be fulfilled, if only creatures of the Inferno had some inherent luck value, and there were abilities that would decrease luck, especially for creatures.
Another option would be something like a wheel-of-fortune effect, not decreasing but CHANGING luck in a random fashion, but I suppose that would be TOO random for most, even though it would be fitting, considering this whole Urgash-Chaos-Luck scenario.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 25, 2012 05:59 PM |
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Right, I simply added the other possibilities, but of course the chance that both trigger is included in the 15 %. Anyway, the exact numbers were not the point.
It is true that removing the inherent Luck value from non-Inferno creatures would help with the problem, but there is still all the Luck values from Hero, artifacts, etc.
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What will happen now?
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frakel
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 25, 2012 07:11 PM |
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Some really nice analysis and good suggestions in the thread! Very interesting to read.
I especially fancy the various ideas of Lexxan back on page 1. Hope this is brought to the attention of the devs 
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ChaosWielder
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 26, 2012 01:04 AM |
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I'd like to see UbiHole say something, *anything*, on the matter of balance and the direction of the game. Asking much? Insiders, what say you? 
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Fofa
Famous Hero
Famous? Me?!
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posted January 26, 2012 04:13 AM |
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Very nice post. It made me realize that the Inferno is underpowered and the Necropolis is overpowered (I'm guessing that the Necromancers are Ubisoft's favourites, if they get spoiled so much), which probably explains why the Inferno is so easy to fight against and Necropolis a pain.
But if there's something I'd add to that, it's this: the creatures of the Inferno just aren't visually interesting: aside from the Breeders, I often regarded the Juggernaut and the Tormentors as interchangeable, the succubi and maniacs look generic for what they are and the Cerberus is missing a head. It's just bland to look at.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 26, 2012 07:22 AM |
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Quote:
Add to that the 7 points from the Destiny skills, and your Luck value is between 20 and 25 for your Inferno creatures, artifacts and Blind Maiden visit not counted.
Depending on the number of attacks each round this should give you something like between at least 2 and possibly even 4 Luck triggers each round on a crowded BF.
Add gated stacks, which increase the number of stacks and attacks, and suddenly it may seem to trigger fairly often.
Can you explain your calculations of 2 to 4 luck triggers here just so I can understand? With 20 to 25 luck points in stats on average for each inferno stack, this means that the chances of each stack having luck trigger is 20 to 25%, so 1 out of 4 chances. So with a battlefield full of 7 stacks, this means chances are 1.75 (0.25 x 7) of stacks will probably have luck?
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted January 26, 2012 07:41 AM |
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Edited by yasmiel at 07:46, 26 Jan 2012.
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Number of luck trigger chances would be increased by number of retaliations (if luck even triggers on them).
to be honest i would just increase creature luck a bit for inferno. (like 3-4 points each) and see how it works. Overcompensating would only move the problem from one side to another.
Then again, in order to have small incremental balance patches they would have to occur more often than they currently are  .
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 26, 2012 08:56 AM |
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Double Deck, it's a matter of seeing that 20%-25% of Luck means, that if you have 100 attacks, you will have 20-25 luck triggers. Attacks means retaliations as well.
So with 7 attacks from you with an additional 1 moral trigger you would have 8 sttacks per round, meaning that without any retaliation, you need 12.5 rounds for 100 attacks to receive 20-25 luck triggers, which means 2 per round.
Add the retaliations, and with 6 or 7 (Cerberi may retaliate a lot, considering how the AI harrasses them), and you double that quota.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 26, 2012 05:51 PM |
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the good news is that apparently, every single problem in the game will be solved by fixing destiny 
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted January 26, 2012 08:55 PM |
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Quote:
...
While it seems difficult to quantify and measure this, in my opinion, since Moral has more consequences the player has a chance to make good tactical use of (the trigger cannot be planned, but the effect can), Moral seems to be better than Destiny, but not just as good as the rest. (That's the main reason I suggest the 3/2/1 rating Destiny/Moral/Rest).
...
EDIT: The main point isn't to suggest the 3/2/1 rating, it's only, that something is decidedly wrong.
Ample testing might provide something like 2.5/1.5/1 would be enough (meaning that destiny would give 3 and 2 points alternating and moral 2 points every other moral level-up).
Again, the number of points people have is already balanced. Necro heroes have less moral and more other things, and all skills and artifacts give equatable number of points for their cost. What needs to change is the effect of a point, so rather than having a hero giving a hero 3x as many points for 1% chance each, just raise it to 3% chance per point of luck.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 26, 2012 09:13 PM |
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1% per point is too good to give it up. It makes things easy to follow and understand.
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Naki
Known Hero
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posted January 26, 2012 10:34 PM |
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Edited by Naki at 22:36, 26 Jan 2012.
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Quote:
Quote:
...
While it seems difficult to quantify and measure this, in my opinion, since Moral has more consequences the player has a chance to make good tactical use of (the trigger cannot be planned, but the effect can), Moral seems to be better than Destiny, but not just as good as the rest. (That's the main reason I suggest the 3/2/1 rating Destiny/Moral/Rest).
...
EDIT: The main point isn't to suggest the 3/2/1 rating, it's only, that something is decidedly wrong.
Ample testing might provide something like 2.5/1.5/1 would be enough (meaning that destiny would give 3 and 2 points alternating and moral 2 points every other moral level-up).
Again, the number of points people have is already balanced. Necro heroes have less moral and more other things, and all skills and artifacts give equatable number of points for their cost. What needs to change is the effect of a point, so rather than having a hero giving a hero 3x as many points for 1% chance each, just raise it to 3% chance per point of luck.
Grammar/spelling: Morale, not Moral.
Morale
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